So. Many. Questions.

[BPoling7]

I'm not new to homebrewing. I've been doing it for 5 years. But until recently I've only been doing it as a very passive hobby when I'm bored and not really concerned about having GREAT beer. In the last few months that has changed. I've started realizing how much time is wasted if you're not creating incredible beers. That being said, I'm fine-tuning my process with the hope that by the first of the year I have the knowledge and equipment I need to make incredible beer. I don't have just one question; I have lots. My hope is that you all will stick with me on this thread and help me out as I go!

As a basis for all of my questions, I generally do partial mash brewing as I dont want all the equipment for all-grain. I do 5 gallon batches with the exception of a few 3 gallon batches in case I want to brew again sooner and need the bottles. I boil in an 7.5 gallon anvil kettle, ferment in a big mouth bubbler, and bottle. I'm not a kegging guy.

OK, first off... I've been curious about the process of adding water after the boil to top up to the OG the recipe calls for. On my last 5 gallon batch I started with a 5.5 gallon boil figuring I'd boil off to under 5 gallons and have to top up with water to hit my OG. The issue was that I boiled off 1.5 gallons and had to add a gallon of water to hit OG. Do you ever find that adding a lot of water that wasn't in your boil to begin with has a negative effect on your finished beer? Should I be trying to boil down to a more precise volume? Would that help? Ok GO: (and thank you in advance as I have lots more questions.)

 

[jschein]

Well the first part you did was figure out your boil off rate which is a great start. So if you want 5.5 gallons in the fermenter you could do a 7 gallon full volume boil. No more top off water. Get some defoamer for the boil to try and stem the boiler over. Or a 10 gallon pot and no defoamer.

 

[jschein]

Or stay the course and know you will need 1 gallon of top off water to reach 5.5 gallons in the fermenter

 

[flars]

Your boil off rate seems high unless you are boiling for more than an hour or this is a very large diameter kettle. I'm didn't find the dimensions of the Anvil kettle. Large diameter kettles will lose more volume during the boil than a smaller diameter kettle.

Could also be your boil is just to vigorous. The wort surface doesn't need to be spitting to achieve the boil temperature.

 

[BPoling7]

What do you do? Do you try to boil down to the right volume? Or do you purposely end up with a less with the intention of having to top off?

 

[BPoling7]

I do think the boil was pretty vigorous. I had to turn the flame down a few times. I have always heard the more vigorous the better but I usually do only boil off about a gallon per hour. I'll keep the flame lower from now on. I just want to know if adding water to hit OG has a negative effect or if it doesn't matter as long as you hit OG. Or if I should calculate better and try to get hit OG without having to top off.

 

[flars]

I do think the boil was pretty vigorous. I had to turn the flame down a few times. I have always heard the more vigorous the better but I usually do only boil off about a gallon per hour. I'll keep the flame lower from now on. I just want to know if adding water to hit OG has a negative effect or if it doesn't matter as long as you hit OG. Or if I should calculate better and try to get hit OG without having to top off.

Adding top off water to the fermentor will reduce the total IBUs achieved during the boil by the dilution. Might not be noticeable though. Other than that there are no negatives to topping off.

 

[mongoose33]

Well the first part you did was figure out your boil off rate which is a great start. So if you want 5.5 gallons in the fermenter you could do a 7 gallon full volume boil. No more top off water. Get some defoamer for the boil to try and stem the boiler over. Or a 10 gallon pot and no defoamer.

Problem is he's using a 7.5-gallon kettle. Too close.

 

[BPoling7]

I've been using fermcap to keep from boil-over and it works pretty well. The reduced IBUs is a really good point though. I do sometimes notice a slight underachievement in the IBUs when I have to top off a lot. I guess getting more specific I'm wondering if the water that's in the boil undergoes some sort of scientific change that needs to be happen that un-boiled water doesn't get. I'm probably over-thinking it.

 

[mongoose33]

A few comments on the desire to make incredible beers:


IMO, one of the best approaches to learning how to make excellent beers is to use a process of continual quality improvement. That is, every time you brew, do something better than last time. Every time.

Unless you have someone to show you all the best practices that produce better beer, you have to learn them on your own. Takes time, and there may be mistakes along the way. The more moving parts you have, the more things you're trying to manage, the greater the chance of something going wrong. So, to me, adding capability as you go helps to nail down the process. It's not something that happens instantaneously, in my experience.

You don't say what your process is, other than partial mash. How do you handle your yeast? If it's dry yeast, do you rehydrate it before pitching? If liquid, do you do a starter? Do you use yeast nutrient, oxygenate your wort, control fermentation temperature?

There are all sorts of places you can make improvements to your brewing. I'm of the belief that there is a cumulative effect on the quality of the beer; the more you do best-practices, the better your beer will tend to be. Unfortunately, it's hard to do them all at once in the beginning; too many moving parts, too much to master. Thus, the approach of trying to add to the process each and every time.

**********

I helped a friend learn to brew--he bought my old setup when I upgraded, so I knew his system well. What I taught him was this: do it like I do. That way, he wasn't making a lot of decisions at the outset, just following a specific process known to produce good beer. In other words, he benefited from my early mistakes. And he was smart enough to do it that way, and to ask why. He is following my process of continuous quality improvement.

Over time, he's beginning to make the improvements I've made, including fermentation temp control, reducing oxygen exposure post-fermentation, better temp control of the mash, better yeast management, oxygenating the wort prior to pitching, water composition, and so on.

I know this is an approach that doesn't sound appealing--we want what we want and we want it NOW. And while your goal to get incredible beer by the first of the year is laudable, is is, IMO, unlikely, unless you brew about 15 times between now and then, and keep making the process better every time.

***********

I also know that not everyone is made of money, and that some of this stuff may be pricey. Just buying an aeration wand, oxygen tank regulator and O2 tank is probably $60-70 and you have to be pretty convinced it matters to make that investment. Same thing with a fermentation chamber--An Inkbird controller costs $35, a heat mat about $15, and then the cost of the fridge, which ranges from free to whatever. It also requires space.

Commercial stir-plates for making yeast starters are expensive but you can make your own for cheap. I have a couple Ehrlenmeyer flasks for making starters, but you can use a half-gallon jar if you sanitize it, boil the wort in a pan, and then cool it. Doesn't have to be expensive--it's the convenience of the Ehrlenmeyer flask that makes it expensive.

***********

I've used this approach--continuous quality improvement--in a number of different areas, and it has worked every time--everything from making custom golf clubs to reloading ammunition for accuracy to casting my own bullets to even powdercoating them and refining the process for accuracy.

The process works. I think it's more bulletproof (sorry ) than a lot of other ways to try to make excellent progress. It has worked for me, and if you commit to it, it'll work for you. Just not, necessarily, by the first of the year.

 

[Yooper]

What do you do? Do you try to boil down to the right volume? Or do you purposely end up with a less with the intention of having to top off?

Most of us who can try to start with enough volume to avoid topping off. Once you know your system, this is pretty easy.

I boil off 1 gallon per hour in the summer, and 1.5 gallon in the winter because our winters are cold and dry. I also brew indoors, in my all-electric system. When I changed equipment, that changed things so it's more about getting to know your system.

When using all grain, adding water after the boil is less efficient than simply sparging up to your boil volume. That's the biggest reason that we start with enough liquid in the boil- sparging gives us some wort instead of plain water. For those who use extract, that's not important because there are still the same amount of sugars in the extract.

In your case, since you are using extract, I'd say boil as much as you can, but don't sweat it.

What can make a bigger difference is when you add the extract (the bulk of it at the end of the boil), and having the freshest extract possible.

 

[BPoling7]

This is all really good advice! I struggle with the idea that homebrewing doesn't have to be expensive. I'm starting to see that a lot of the time if you just use a basic setup without spending a lot you can usually make pretty okay beer, maybe pretty good beer here and there, and there are some things that I've tried to stay away from buying thinking I probably dont need them (Stir plate, fermentation chamber, etc.), but when I have these conversations I really question whether these things might actually be helpful and really improve my beer.
As far as my process, I do sometimes use liquid yeast but I generally use dry yeast if I can. I don't rehydrate. I pitch it in as soon as the counterflow chiller is empty, put the lid on, and shake well to oxygenate. I've never really had problems with the yeast getting started. I usually get a good vigorous fermentation. As far as fermentation goes, I keep the primary in the utility room in my basement because it's dark and stays consistently in the 68°-72° range.

Question two: If you're not adding anything to a recipe for a specific flavor or more hop aroma, is a secondary really necessary? If you're not adding anything to the secondary, is there any benefit of even being in one? I understand that the beer should not sit on the trub or too long but If primary fermentation is finished in 1.5-2 weeks that's not long enough for the trub to make a difference in the beer, right? (this will lead into my third question.).

 

[Yooper]

As far as fermentation goes, I keep the primary in the utility room in my basement because it's dark and stays consistently in the 68°-72° range.

Question two: If you're not adding anything to a recipe for a specific flavor or more hop aroma, is a secondary really necessary? If you're not adding anything to the secondary, is there any benefit of even being in one? I understand that the beer should not sit on the trub or too long but If primary fermentation is finished in 1.5-2 weeks that's not long enough for the trub to make a difference in the beer, right? (this will lead into my third question.).

68-72 degrees is a bit warm- I'd suggest a cheap way to keep it cooler is to put it in a cooler, add some water up to the level of the beer, and throw a frozen water bottle in there as needed. You can float a cheap aquarium thermometer in that water bath, and aim for 62-65 depending on yeast strain.

I don't use a secondary very often. I allow it to ferment out, and wait a bit for it to clear or start to clear, and then package. I often package beers at about day 14 or so, dryhopped beers at about day 17. However, many people let the beer rest on the trub for a month, and they make fine beer.

 

[BPoling7]

What can make a bigger difference is when you add the extract (the bulk of it at the end of the boil), and having the freshest extract possible.

Let me get back to you on this! Your comment on extracts give me another major question.

 

[Yooper]

Let me get back to you on this! Your comment on extracts give me another major question.

We're here for any questions you have! There are a lot of experienced brewers here who started just as you have, so maybe we can help you learn from our mistakes.

 

[BPoling7]

You guys are all so helpful! I used to try to stay away from these forums but there's a lot of knowledge here. Okay so question 3: As far as extract goes, I have read that partial mash brewing is okay but you really have to watch and make sure you get quality extracts. That being said, I've also heard that LME goes bad a lot faster than DME, so I usually stick with DME. In my process, I sparge (minimally, because I usually only have 2-4lbs of grains), then add my DME, and add water up to the boil volume if needed. So I boil the DME for the full boil. Is that not the correct way of doing it? Should I be adding DME toward the end?

 

[Yooper]

You guys are all so helpful! I used to try to stay away from these forums but there's a lot of knowledge here. Okay so question 3: As far as extract goes, I have read that partial mash brewing is okay but you really have to watch and make sure you get quality extracts. That being said, I've also heard that LME goes bad a lot faster than DME, so I usually stick with DME. In my process, I sparge (minimally, because I usually only have 2-4lbs of grains), then add my DME, and add water up to the boil volume if needed. So I boil the DME for the full boil. Is that not the correct way of doing it? Should I be adding DME toward the end?

There are some advantages to LME- like it comes in more "flavors". You can get maris otter extract, Munich malt extract, even rye malt extract- all in LME. But it does darken more, so the beers are darker in color and it can have more "old boiled extract" flavor in it.

I would add the LME at the end of the boil, after the flame is off to avoid that "cooked extract" and excess darkening from the maillard reactions.

I would also add the bulk of the DME at the end of the boil, for the same reason.

To "simulate" an all grain type of boil gravity and process, I would use about 1 pound of extract per gallon of water boiled right in the boil, and add the rest of the extract after the flame goes out. Then the beer would not darken (again, those maillard reactions) nor have that "cooked extract" taste to it.

 

[jschein]

You guys are all so helpful! I used to try to stay away from these forums but there's a lot of knowledge here. Okay so question 3: As far as extract goes, I have read that partial mash brewing is okay but you really have to watch and make sure you get quality extracts. That being said, I've also heard that LME goes bad a lot faster than DME, so I usually stick with DME. In my process, I sparge (minimally, because I usually only have 2-4lbs of grains), then add my DME, and add water up to the boil volume if needed. So I boil the DME for the full boil. Is that not the correct way of doing it? Should I be adding DME toward the end?

Very interesting question. Many on here are doing late boil DME additions. I for one have done this, mostly i do all grain. But i do sometimes do extract when they have a massive sale. Next time i do an extract i am going to try the new fangled brewing!

 

[BPoling7]

This conversation is like gold to me right meow.

Question 4 (I think): I have a huge problem with chill haze. I know it's not that big of a deal as far as taste is concerned. I just don't like it. I use whirfloc tablets 15 minutes before flameout and while bottle conditioning I notice that it clears up really well, up until the time I cold crash the bottles. I recently listened to a beersmith brewing podcast (which are great, by the way), that talked about the science behind chill haze so I sort of get why it happens. My real question is more about how to make sure you have enough yeast left during botting after using a fining agent to make sure you'll still get good carbonation. I have never used gelatin but I've heard it really clarifies well. But am I still going to get enough yeast for bottling? GO:

 

[mongoose33]

This is all really good advice! I struggle with the idea that homebrewing doesn't have to be expensive. I'm starting to see that a lot of the time if you just use a basic setup without spending a lot you can usually make pretty okay beer, maybe pretty good beer here and there, and there are some things that I've tried to stay away from buying thinking I probably dont need them (Stir plate, fermentation chamber, etc.), but when I have these conversations I really question whether these things might actually be helpful and really improve my beer.

I think much of this depends on how you view the hobby. For some, it's just about making beer. For others, it's more of a journey, where we enjoy mastering the process.

Early on, I was making drinkable beer, sometimes pretty good beer. But I knew there were many places I could improve and, unfortunately, they would cost money.

If you can view this through the lens of the joy of exploration and learning, then there's a different reason for getting a fermentation chamber to control ferm temps. You'll learn a lot, and I believe you'll find you produce better beer. I love learning, I love trying to master a complicated subject, I love the ability to assess my outcomes, which beer brewing certainly allows.

As far as my process, I do sometimes use liquid yeast but I generally use dry yeast if I can. I don't rehydrate. I pitch it in as soon as the counterflow chiller is empty, put the lid on, and shake well to oxygenate. I've never really had problems with the yeast getting started. I usually get a good vigorous fermentation. As far as fermentation goes, I keep the primary in the utility room in my basement because it's dark and stays consistently in the 68°-72° range.

Two things: First, yeast is exothermic which means it produces heat as it ferments. Your actual wort temperature might be 5-10 degrees above ambient temperature which means....73-82 degrees, not 68-72. Except for a few warm-fermented beers, that's too warm.

A ferm chamber is the best answer, but you can use a swamp cooler setup to reduce that temperature rise. All you need is an aluminum turkey pan ($1 from the dollar store), an old t-shirt, and some water. Set the fermenter in the pan of water, drape the t-shirt over the fermenter and let it dangle in the water, and wet the t-shirt. It'll draw up water and the evaporation of that water will cool the fermenter 5 degrees or even more. I used to put ice cubes under the shirt so as they melted they'd keep the shirt wet. You can use a fan to blow air on it to help. (Pic at the bottom--the Inkbird controller is just used to monitor temp. Ambient was 64, and the swamp cooler held it there).

Second, I'd suggest rehydrating dry yeast. You'll probably kill half the yeast in the dry packet pitching directly into the wort. Shaking well helps, though I think I'd do that before pitching just to keep from splashing some of that yeast up on the sides of the fermenter where it isn't doing any good.

Question two: If you're not adding anything to a recipe for a specific flavor or more hop aroma, is a secondary really necessary? If you're not adding anything to the secondary, is there any benefit of even being in one? I understand that the beer should not sit on the trub or too long but If primary fermentation is finished in 1.5-2 weeks that's not long enough for the trub to make a difference in the beer, right? (this will lead into my third question.).

I would say no. Very few experienced brewers are using a secondary for typical brews. The exception would be for long aging periods, adding specific flavors perhaps. I used one early on because....the instructions said so. But I read on here that it wasn't necessary, and stopped. Haven't since. If you're bottling or kegging within a month, don't bother with a secondary.

Cheap Solution to Ferm Temp Control: Swamp Cooler



More "involved" Solution to Ferm Temp Control. Two Fridges

 

[BPoling7]

Very good! I used the big mouth bubblers like you. Will one of those fit in a mini-fridge?

 

[BPoling7]

So here's what I've learned so far:
1. Yeast starter and rehydrating dry yeasts is a good idea.
2. Fermentation chambers give you more control of ferm temps.
3. Late extract additions are better than full boil.

Question 4 (I think): I have a huge problem with chill haze. I know it's not that big of a deal as far as taste is concerned. I just don't like it. I use whirfloc tablets 15 minutes before flameout and while bottle conditioning I notice that it clears up really well, up until the time I cold crash the bottles. I recently listened to a beersmith brewing podcast (which are great, by the way), that talked about the science behind chill haze so I sort of get why it happens. My real question is more about how to make sure you have enough yeast left during botting after using a fining agent to make sure you'll still get good carbonation. I have never used gelatin but I've heard it really clarifies well. But am I still going to get enough yeast for bottling? Do any of you have a good method for avoiding haze? GO:

 

[Yooper]

Question 4 (I think): I have a huge problem with chill haze. I know it's not that big of a deal as far as taste is concerned. I just don't like it. I use whirfloc tablets 15 minutes before flameout and while bottle conditioning I notice that it clears up really well, up until the time I cold crash the bottles. I recently listened to a beersmith brewing podcast (which are great, by the way), that talked about the science behind chill haze so I sort of get why it happens. My real question is more about how to make sure you have enough yeast left during botting after using a fining agent to make sure you'll still get good carbonation. I have never used gelatin but I've heard it really clarifies well. But am I still going to get enough yeast for bottling? Do any of you have a good method for avoiding haze? GO:

You will have plenty of yeast for bottle conditioning.

Chill haze will go away with a long cold conditioning, if you get it. You can avoid it by getting a good hot break and cold break, but if you get it, the only real fix is cold conditioning. You can try gelatin, and that may work.

 

[mongoose33]

Very good! I used the big mouth bubblers like you. Will one of those fit in a mini-fridge?

You tell me: It just fits if offset to the left; I had to sit the fermenter on a few pieces of scrap wood to get it to rise far enough to clear the bottom flange on the door of the fridge. I also chose not to try to bend the freezer down to make room for an airlock, so I use a 5/16" piece of silicone tubing connected to a drilled stopper and piece of rigid tubing.

I could have cut off the plastic molding on the door, and I may well do that at some point, but i was hoping to keep it as a fridge potentially. The easy thing to do is remove that molding.

 

[betarhoalphadelta]

IMO, one of the best approaches to learning how to make excellent beers is to use a process of continual quality improvement. That is, every time you brew, do something better than last time. Every time.

This is very good advice. Beer is very process-dependent. Honing your process and trying to move as many possible things to "best practices" over time is IMHO the key to making stellar beer at home. It's not exactly instant gratification, but if you keep trying to improve, you'll eventually find that your beer is commercial-quality.

As a basis for all of my questions, I generally do partial mash brewing as I dont want all the equipment for all-grain. I do 5 gallon batches with the exception of a few 3 gallon batches in case I want to brew again sooner and need the bottles. I boil in an 7.5 gallon anvil kettle, ferment in a big mouth bubbler, and bottle. I'm not a kegging guy.

The nice thing about the last several years is that the practice known as BIAB (brew in a bag) has become commonplace amongst homebrewers. It's all-grain brewing with "all the equipment". Essentially with your 7.5 gal pot, all you'd really need is the bag and you'd be ready to start with all-grain. Not only can this potentially save you money on a per-batch basis relative to extract/partial mash, but it negates all of your concerns about LME.

This is all really good advice! I struggle with the idea that homebrewing doesn't have to be expensive. I'm starting to see that a lot of the time if you just use a basic setup without spending a lot you can usually make pretty okay beer, maybe pretty good beer here and there, and there are some things that I've tried to stay away from buying thinking I probably dont need them (Stir plate, fermentation chamber, etc.), but when I have these conversations I really question whether these things might actually be helpful and really improve my beer.
As far as my process, I do sometimes use liquid yeast but I generally use dry yeast if I can. I don't rehydrate. I pitch it in as soon as the counterflow chiller is empty, put the lid on, and shake well to oxygenate. I've never really had problems with the yeast getting started. I usually get a good vigorous fermentation. As far as fermentation goes, I keep the primary in the utility room in my basement because it's dark and stays consistently in the 68°-72° range.

IMHO a stir plate isn't necessary. You can make starters without a stir plate (for liquid yeast, I *do* recommend starters). A fermentation chamber is not exactly necessary, but I think fermentation temperature control is a HUGE step in making great beer. And as already mentioned, fermentation is exothermic, so 68-72 ambient could easily 75-85 during the peak of fermentation. Finding a way to keep your fermentation temps down will help.

Also, if you're worried about dry yeast pitch rates, buy two packs. Dry yeast is inexpensive enough that you can typically buy two packs for close to the same expense as one pack/vial of liquid, and even if you don't rehydrate, you'll be sure to have enough yeast.

I use whirfloc tablets 15 minutes before flameout and while bottle conditioning I notice that it clears up really well, up until the time I cold crash the bottles. I recently listened to a beersmith brewing podcast (which are great, by the way), that talked about the science behind chill haze so I sort of get why it happens. My real question is more about how to make sure you have enough yeast left during botting after using a fining agent to make sure you'll still get good carbonation. I have never used gelatin but I've heard it really clarifies well. But am I still going to get enough yeast for bottling? GO:

My understanding is that the boil can denature the proteins in whirlfloc or Irish moss and that 15 minutes is too long. Try dropping that to ~5 minutes before flameout.

And yes, gelatin can help with fining. You'll still have enough yeast to bottle condition.

 

[PADave]

Fermentation temp control is probably the one thing that is going to improve your beer the most. Being able to hold a set temp, then change as fermentation progresses is essential.