So Effing Close

[MyCarHasAbs]

If you are noticing flavors in your lighter ales, it's almost 100% that your mash pH is too high.

I'm guessing you are using water (probably tap water) and that you are not acidifying the mashing water enough to drop the mash pH into the proper range.

It's a super easy fix. Use RO or distilled water, or get a water profile from Ward lab for $26 and see if you can work with your tap water.

The only water used this time around was Deer Park. No tap water touched it this time.

 

[MyCarHasAbs]

Watched a few vids and I'm now getting the concept that you're technically doing the strike water method twice. Once for first runnings and then a second time to collect the rest of the volume. I'll watch more later but to me, I call that striking twice.

To fix my problem of not collecting enough wort and to prevent diluting it by adding water to the carboy via the extract method, I could just get an 8gal kettle.
http://www.midwestsupplies.com/tall-boy-brew-kettles.html
However, my carboys can only handle 4 gallons before there's about 3.5-5 inches worth of head room space for the krausen. So I'd probably collect the full 5 gallons that the directions say it can make and let a gallon burn off during boil. Make sense?

If I get a thumbs up or two on that movement I'll just go ahead and order the Tall Boy kettle. Cheap enough.

 

[Bobby_M]

1. I guess a new thread got denied. Oh well. Made to sense to me..

2. I would agree after reading some comments that I'm confusing some techniques learned from extract (adding water post boil to the carboy). I think I've also come to a conclusion that you can't go completely off the directions that come with these kits. More than half of the important steps are NOT mentioned.

3. Sounds like my next investment should be a bigger kettle after I watch some more vids from Northern Brewer. As for my method of rinsing the grains, the guy I watched in the vid def seemed to know his sh*t.

For those who do not want to skim through a 30 minute video I'll break down the sparging process that I've been doing.

1. heat up additional volume of water to about 165-170F.
2. Use a large measuring cup to scoop out the water and sprinkle ontop of the grains through a pasta strainer.
3. replace lid back on top of mash tun
4. add more water to heat up and repeat until X amount of volume is collected.

Following that breakdown, my next comment may come off a bit smart assed so I apologize in advanced because I do not intend it to come off that way. But, if that method I'm describing is in correct, then how do you explain the Chocolate Stout I made a few months ago? It turned out so good I served it at my employers' monthly Beer Friday. Not saying anybody's wrong, just saying it seems to be working..

If all I need is to watch a few more vids and get a new kettle then no biggie. Tax return was quite nice this year.

Multiple threads for the same conversation is illogical.

The hokiebrewer video shows a labor intensive manual fly sparge technique. It's not technically wrong, but it's not close to optimum. If you want to continue down that path, it would be practical to arrange the vessels so that you can gravity flow the sparge water into the mash while the wort runs out into a bucket. Before you make that decision, let us know what kind of filter you have in the mash tun as it may not even be appropriate for fly sparging.

If manually adding sparge water is better for your equipment setup, you'd be better off just batch sparging. Drain the first running out so the tun is devoid of liquid. Add a batch of sparge water, stir and drain again. Done.

This technique only requires you to measure your first runnings so that you know how much water you'll need to sparge with to reach your desired preboil volume (usually 6.5 gallons). If your current pot cannot handle that much volume, you can either reduce your batch size or get a larger pot.

Equally smart assed response.. if your process wasn't a bit broken, all the beers would be as stellar as the chocolate stout.

 

[MyCarHasAbs]

1. If manually adding sparge water is better for your equipment setup, you'd be better off just batch sparging. Drain the first running out so the tun is devoid of liquid. Add a batch of sparge water, stir and drain again. Done.
This technique only requires you to measure your first runnings so that you know how much water you'll need to sparge with to reach your desired preboil volume (usually 6.5 gallons). If your current pot cannot handle that much volume, you can either reduce your batch size or get a larger pot.

2. Equally smart assed response.. if your process wasn't a bit broken, all the beers would be as stellar as the chocolate stout.

1. That makes sense. Once I have a bigger kettle, I'll have a smaller kettle that can handle the size of the additional sparge water volume. Currently I'm using another kettle that can probably only hold 3 gallons to the brim. Not enough. My mash tun should be large enough to handle that process. It was just barely under the brim with 3.625 gallons of water and 11.6 lbs of grain. So.. in theory once the grain bed has settled and I've collected 3.625 gallons of wort, the additional volume (of water) needed should still fit in the mash tun with the settled grain and not run over the brim. Oh and to answer another question, my filter is from the DYI mash tun. It's that steel mesh pipe that's used for toilets and washing machines. And yes, I took the plastic portion out of the mesh or else it wouldn't be collecting squat.

2. Still doesn't explain why one beer out of a broken process turned out pat on the back awesome haha.

 

[McKnuckle]

At the end of the day, we are talking about simple things, not complex things. We're soaking crushed grain in hot water so that sugar dissolves into the water. Then we need to remove the grain (or the water), and boil the water. This is Brewing 101 at a 50,000' view.

There are about a dozen or more ways to do this. That's why everyone has slightly different advice, because experienced brewers have experimented and settled on techniques that work for them. Batch sparge, fly sparge, NO sparge, and BIAB "dunk" sparge are the basic ways to do it. But there are hybrid methods too. Nothing is "right" or "best" at all. Follow the basic principles, be inventive, and you'll find your favorite method too.

I hope the Deer Park water makes a difference and you don't get twang in your light ales. That was one of the reasons for this thread in the first place; it seems to have gotten lost in a critique and/or dissection of your sparging technique.

 

[Yooper]

2. Still doesn't explain why one beer out of a broken process turned out pat on the back awesome haha.

The answer is mash pH. I'm completely serious. The stout had acidic grains in it, which are darker and/or roasted. That drives the mash pH down enough to be optimum.

Use RO or distilled water (not deer park or other 'spring water') and use lactic acid or phosphoric acid in the mash or acidulated malt, and target a mash pH of 5.3-5.4. That's it. https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f128/brewing-water-chemistry-primer-198460/

Your sparging technique is not optimum, but that's not really such a bad issue EXCEPT for the sparge pH. If you use 100% RO water for the sparge, or batch sparge, that will be totally fixed even if you continue the sparge you are doing. I wouldn't, as you're wasting a lot of time and effort for no gain, but you would be fine doing it with RO water (I think- I'm still not 100% sure what you are doing).

 

[tnance1337]

While there are many different processes, there are definitely ones that are much less efficient, and/or bad practice. It may work to some degree to do different techniques, but the end result may include an issue that leads to hazy beer, laggy fermentations, "twangy" taste, etc. I don't think advising anyone to just do what they like is good advice. My apologies on being blunt.

I do agree that there are some steps where the process can vary without much impact. Things like sparging, however, are very important, and should be done correctly to avoid issues. The different methods result in varying efficiencies, and I believe it's worth sussing out what his steps are exactly, and then working on improving it, for his benefit. It has an impact on the final product.

That said, I'm with the pool of thought your mash and sparge water may be the cause of your flavor issues. To put simply, your stout turned out great because you have the right water profile for it. For anything else, not so much.

Follow Yooper's advice on water treatment.

 

[McKnuckle]

The water alkalinity issue with light vs. dark beers was pointed out waaaay back at the beginning. It should be pursued despite its annoyingly complex/science-y nature. I'm sure Yooper has personal experience with it, and I do as well. It's real and can be addressed with a little intellectual investment and effort.

You don't get "twang" from sparging sub-optimally unless we are talking about tannin astringency from sucking the grain dry; of course it's possible but not likely - deal with the mash pH first!

 

[tnance1337]

The water alkalinity issue with light vs. dark beers was pointed out waaaay back at the beginning. It should be pursued despite its annoyingly complex/science-y nature. I'm sure Yooper has personal experience with it, and I do as well. It's real and can be addressed with a little intellectual investment and effort.

You don't get "twang" from sparging sub-optimally unless we are talking about tannin astringency from sucking the grain dry; of course it's possible but not likely - deal with the mash pH first!

Correct. It was pointed out many times that mash and sparge pH is likely his culprit. You were one of the first to call it out and was very well spotted. Definitely the direction to look.

I also agree. Twang isn't usually a byproduct of poor sparging techniques insomuch as efficiency is concerned.

But, I think since we started this conversation, we've found a few challenges with OP's steps and processes that are holding him back. It's worth it to him to continue to improve, even if all he was after was solving a twang flavor issue.

 

[tgmartin000]

From skimming through the thread it sounds like you need an equipment upgrade. For a5 gallon batch, you need a10 gallon mash tun and kettle. it sounds like your also are having trouble hitting your correct volumes.

For instance, I make 6 gallon batches, which is enough to completely fill a 5 gallon keg. This means at the end of the boil, I have 6.5 gallons. My boil off rate is 1.15 gal/hr, so pre boil, I have about 7.75 gallons for a 1 hour boil. For a 1.5 hour boil, I need another .7 gallons pre boil. To get this volume, I need about 9 gallons of water total.

In order to know all this, you need to know your grain and equipment losses. If you don't have beersmith, is recommend it. It will calculate your required sparge volume in order to hit your correct post boil volume into the fermentor, including grain absorption, mash tun lots, boil off, kettle loss, fermentor loss, and anything else.

 

[MyCarHasAbs]

Correct. It was pointed out many times that mash and sparge pH is likely his culprit. You were one of the first to call it out and was very well spotted. Definitely the direction to look.

I also agree. Twang isn't usually a byproduct of poor sparging techniques insomuch as efficiency is concerned.

But, I think since we started this conversation, we've found a few challenges with OP's steps and processes that are holding him back. It's worth it to him to continue to improve, even if all he was after was solving a twang flavor issue.

I think this post nailed it on the head where this thread is right now. I'm sorry it's taken a course slightly off track and it's the same reason why I thought it was best to start a new thread. I've been on forums before where anything past 8+ pages was getting into the "ridiculous zone" by the MODS. Also, some folks were getting lost in translation with all the different information being tossed around. It made sense to me to take all the highlights and conclusions and make cliff notes on page 1 of a new thread to get everything and everyone back on track.

However, I'm actually really glad someone noticed a red flag and questioned it or else I'm not sure anyone would have caught the fact that I was adding water post boil and confusing extract techniques with AG techniques. That's like a tech support agent asking if the cord is even plugged in haha.

I think once the grain bed has settled after the first runnings, there should be enough room in my mash tun for the batch sparge. I'm ordering the 8gal kettle later today. If I find that I need a bigger mashtun then I'll go back out to home depot and get a 10 gal cooler I could probably reuse all the extra parts inside my current one.

EDIT: I'll also give Beersmith a shot. I see they make it for Mac too.

 

[McKnuckle]

Give brewersfriend.com a try before you settle on BeerSmith.

 

[Gavin C]

I have followed the tread from the start. I am no expert. I am a brewer with a similar level of experience to yourself. The difference is I have done my homework and explored the fundamentals. When it comes to all grain brewing it would appear you are nowhere effing close mate. The question in your thread is analogous to asking why there is a leak in the kitchen ceiling and investigating plumbing but neglecting to mention that the roof of your house was ripped off in a recent hurricane.

Yes pH is certainly a contributing factor in taste but in addition to exploring this you should master the fundamentals which you are demonstrably ignorant of.

Learn how to
1: calculate strike water temperature and volume
2: perform a batch sparge ( it is not a second strike stage) in your rectangular cooler and forget fly-sparging in one
3: calculate the desired volumes of strike and Sparge water
4: calculate a desired preboil volume to target a specific batch size
5: use a hydrometer and understand the data
6: interpret the minimal value of feedback from people who you give your beer to who are most likely mannerly individuals without BJCP certification
7: seek out reputable sources of brewing techniques online and filter out the nonsense
8: rationalize what should be and needn't be sanitized

Water chemistry can be explored but if done so I suggest it be done concurrently with all the other areas you should look at improving.
I would respectfully reiterate " read Palmer's How to Brew" as you do not know how to brew. There is no shame in that we are all here to learn and share our knowledge.

You seem to be reading the thread and getting the idea that all these glaring inefficiencies and deficiencies in your process are secondary less important causes of subtle off flavors in the list of crazy beers you have made. I would interpret them as being wholy responsible with pH issues being something that can be easily addressed once you know what you are doing.

If I come across disrespectful I apologize. It is not my intent. It just seems to me you are completely missing the point that many posters have alluded. ie: when it comes to all grain brewing this past 8 months it would appear you don't know your head from a hole in the ground.

 

[MyCarHasAbs]

So did some quick calculations on BrewersFriend.com's Yeast Pitch Rate Calc. As I mentioned earlier, my carboy can only hold 4 gal with enough headspace for the krausen. So even if I draw 6-6.5 gal of wort I'm still only going to end up with 4 gal in the carboy.

According to BrewersFriend Yeast Pitch Rate Calculator, 11.5 g of dry yeast is not sufficient for 4 gal of wort with a starting gravity of 1.044-1050. It's -9bil to -26bil cells off. Soo with that in mind..would the simple answer be to use two packets of dry yeast or is there a way to make a starter with dry yeast? I've already done research and learned that it's no popular practice to make a starter with dry yeast.

 

[MyCarHasAbs]

I recommend the following.

Learn how to
1: calculate strike water temperature and volume
2: perform a batch sparge ( it is not a second strike stage) in your rectangular cooler and forget fly-sparging in one
3: calculate the desired volumes of strike and Sparge water
4: calculate a desired preboil volume to target a specific batch size
5: use a hydrometer and understand the data
6: interpret the minimal value of feedback from people who you give your beer to who are most likely mannerly individuals without BJCP certification
7: seek out reputable sources of brewing techniques online and filter out the nonsense
8: rationalize what should be and needn't be sanitized
9: read Palmers How To Brew

all you had to say.

 

[stpug]

One sachet of dry yeast is sufficient.

Order a bucket fermenter with your pot and your fermenter size is solved.

 

[MyCarHasAbs]

One sachet of dry yeast is sufficient.

Order a bucket fermenter with your pot and your fermenter size is solved.

Oh I actually have a bucket fermenter, I just don't like using it because it has a ever so slightly air leak in it at the top. A small nuisance yes, but I prefer to use plastic carboys the whole way though so I can see productivity.
Though I may give the bucket a second chance next weekend.

 

[stpug]

Oh I actually have a bucket fermenter, I just don't like using it because it has a ever so slightly air leak in it at the top. A small nuisance yes, but I prefer to use plastic carboys the whole way though so I can see productivity.
Though I may give the bucket a second chance next weekend.

Then order a 6 gallon PET carboy with your pot and drilled stopper to fit (#10 usually)

 

[MyCarHasAbs]

Then order a 6 gallon PET carboy with your pot and drilled stopper to fit (#10 usually)

Haha, one upgrade at a time. SHMBO already thinks it's ridiculous enough that I spent a couple hundred on dual temp control units..which btw have proved to be quite helpful so far! Just bought the new kettle, should be here in time for next weekend.

Thx.

 

[BierGut]

Also, (while currently in mid boil) here's where I suspect one issue may be...I'm currently well above 120F. Am I scorching the malt?

This could possibly explain why none of my beers are crystal clear, with the exception of my wheat beer.

Here's one thing that has me confused. You're in mid boil, yes well above 120F, 212F in fact. Are you boiling the grains?

 

[MyCarHasAbs]

Here's one thing that has me confused. You're in mid boil, yes well above 120F, 212F in fact. Are you boiling the grains?

No, no absolutely not. I was just wondering if it's possible for the boil to be too high while boiling the already collected wort. Long time ago the guy who first showed me mentioned something about if you get the heat too high you can end up with hazy beer. Wasn't sure if that's what he was referring to or not.

I'm watching more vids and reading through How To Brew later tonight.

 

[BierGut]

No, no absolutely not. I was just wondering if it's possible for the boil to be too high while boiling the already collected wort. Long time ago the guy who first showed me mentioned something about if you get the heat too high you can end up with hazy beer. Wasn't sure if that's what he was referring to or not.

I'm watching more vids and reading through How To Brew later tonight.

One more thing. Check out Beersmith.com, you can download a free trial for 2 weeks. Set up your equipment profile (MLT size/fermetor size(there are also youtube vids to help you do this)) This will help you to calculate all your volumes because you're Big Ben kits are meant for 5 gallons and you're condensing that down to 4 gallons

 

[MyCarHasAbs]

One more thing. Check out Beersmith.com, you can download a free trial for 2 weeks. Set up your equipment profile (MLT size/fermetor size(there are also youtube vids to help you do this))

This will help you to calculate all your volumes because you're Big Ben kits are meant for 5 gallons and you're condensing that down to 4 gallons

yep, I thought hard about that last bit. I bought these three kits for the sole purpose of diving deep into this experiment so even if the first comes out okay, the second one better but not perfect and the third one awesome..it's worth it to me for learning purposes. Worst case scenario, using 4 gallons out of the 5-5.5 post boil knocks things off course a little and I have to upgrade to a 6 gal carboy and possibly even a larger mashtun. No big deal. However after reading into chapter 17 of How To Brew, Palmer says it's perfectly okay to batch sparge multiple times (referring to not having enough room in the mashtun for the full batch sparge volume). He even says a 5 gallon mashtun is okay to use for 5 gal batches.

EDIT: I should also mention I played around with BrewersFriend and it said 3.6gal for strike water and 3.6gal for sparge if my target volume was 4 gal. I pretty sure that also involved a calculation of 1.15gal burn off during boil..

 

[MyCarHasAbs]

Quick update that pertains to one of the brews I mentioned on Page 1 that was "experimental". I decided to test a bottle from my Wheat beer brewed with lemon and orange peel. I was actually surprised how carbonated it was in just under two weeks. I could simply say it turned out good, but that wouldn't do the first bottle justice. I'd have to say if every one of my lighter ales turned out this good, I'd never know I was doing anything wrong in the brewing process. Maybe it was the strain of yeast I used..maybe it kicked a bunch of a** and took names in the process.

Maybe another report by this weekend with batch two of three.
Thanks again for those who've contributed.

 

[grevengrevs]

Let us know how it goes. I'm sure you'll get it worked out soon enough and be on here bragging about how awesome your beer is in no time!

 

[MyCarHasAbs]

Hey dudes, I have a weekend update for batch #2 of Midwest's Big Ben Pale Ale

Brewed #2 today, heres some notes I took.

- after reading through chapter 17 of How to Brew, I discovered that what I was doing prior to was actually a minuscule version of batch sparging, the only dif was I wasn't pulling the complete amount wort for the volume being made.

- I'm def beginning to understand the sparging process as I noticed the farther I got in to collecting the wort the lighter and somewhat clearer the wort got through the hose. Not just that, I'm beginning to understand why the gravity level should be higher post boil than pre boil as you're burning off water and the sugars should be dissolving into the wort (similar concept to making sweet tea sweet). ((The concept of water more or less replacing what I'm trying to extract from the mash tun is becoming much clearer.))

- getting the wort to a boil took a longer time as suspected with an 8gal kettle haha.

- prepping the yeast: this is def getting better. By the time I pitched the yeast, it was def at a cream like texture. I also figured out that placing a cup of water in a 2 cup measuring cup in the microwave for 35 seconds equated in about a 102F temp.

- Gravity Readings:

well,...this is where things are still a bit curious. My preboil was lower than last week's, it was 1.039 roughly. Post boil was also lower than last week but still above what it should be. I forget how much exactly but needless to say..still higher than it should be on paper. I'm not so sure I'm not picking up extras from hops in the wort in my post boil gravity readings that's making the hydrometer go off the charts..

While I was at it, I took a gravity reading from last weeks Big Ben Pale Ale and as I kind of suspected..the addition of unneeded extra water I believe it to blame for this gravity reading. The weight of the hydrometer sunk right to the bottom. However..I tasted it and the off flavor doesn't seem to be present any longer...it just tasted like a slightly diluted IPA. Not great, not terrible either.

So in conclusion, I'm going to hold off on brewing the third until I can taste the out come of batch#1 and quite possibly batch#2 as well. My basement is good and cool so I don't see the grains aging too much. I'm very curious what the gravity will be like on batch #2 in a week. I'll likely cold crash batch #1 tomorrow as there appears to be no further sugar content left to ferment.

 

[BierGut]

1.039 sounds like a proper pre boil reading for that beer. Do you happen to have a pic of your post boil reading that is higher than what you think it should be? A 60 min boil should have taken that to ~1.048ish? Make sure you're putting enough wort in the test tube so that it's floating.

Did you use the brewing software to help calculate the water volumes for a scaled down batch?

The gravity on batch #1 shouldn't be low enough to just sink the hydrometer?

 

[MyCarHasAbs]

1.039 sounds like a proper pre boil reading for that beer. Do you happen to have a pic of your post boil reading that is higher than what you think it should be? A 60 min boil should have taken that to ~1.048ish? Make sure you're putting enough wort in the test tube so that it's floating.

Did you use the brewing software to help calculate the water volumes for a scaled down batch?

The gravity on batch #1 shouldn't be low enough to just sink the hydrometer?

I didn't take a pic but I wonder if the additional hop presence that hadn't been filtered out yet was causing that high reading. That would def thicken it up.

I did use the software and it suggested 3.6 gal for strike and sparge on the second batch.

I do have an UPDATE on the first batch. From previous batches I even noticed a familiar scent with the off flavor. I'm not picking up that scent anymore and after 1 week fermenting and 1 week in cold crash I was able to take a 2-3 oz sampling of some that didn't make enough for a whole bottle fill. It's tastes noticeable better even considering it's technically diluted.

I'm very curious how batch #2 will taste next weekend post bottling. I also took a gravity reading for batch#2 and while it was still floating it appeared to be just a hair lower than expected. I'll take the fact that it was still floating as a good sign of progression. Oh also, batch#2 had clear signs of improved fermentation. I'm getting the hang of the rehydration process.

I'm going to hold on brewing the third until I can taste both batches #1 and 2. A small question past that, Palmer talks about the two week fermenting cycle as well as Midwest in their directions. Does cold crashing count in that time frame?? I would be somewhat inclined to guess not considering cold usually slows molecular activity down. But the final gravity reading of batch#1compared to the left over bottle tasting of batch#1 suggests maturing is still active for that 35-36F cold week.

OH, and fun fact for those who remember my last experimental beer prior to "my awakening" as I'll call it. I sampled off the lemon and orange peel wheat beer at my employer's happy hour last friday. I got a lot of good feedback on it. I got asked for a couple bottles. Imagine what the beer could taste like if it wasn't diluted. The only negative feedback I got was "the lemon flavor is too short".

 

[BierGut]

The beer will let you know when it's done fermenting after successive gravity readings taken 2-3 days apart are the same. Keep your ales in the low to mid 60's for two weeks, take a gravity reading with your hydrometer (make sure there's enough wort in the test tube so that your hydrometer is not resting on the bottom), for example it reads 1.008. Probably finished fermenting but hold off on bottling until the following weekend and take another reading, still 1.008, perfect it's time to bottle.

Fermenting for a week and then cold crashing in 35-36F will put the yeast to sleep before they're done fermenting your beer. So then you're bottling unattenuated, sweet wort, adding priming sugar and putting the bottles at room temp to carb up. The yeast awaken and start chewing on this new and old sugar and boom, you got bottle bombs.

 

[tnance1337]

I'd actually say that a mid gravity pale ale doesn't need 2 weeks at low 60s, and in fact, you can speed that up by allowing primary fermentation (usually 2-3 days) to take place at about 60-62F (take a gravity reading to ensure you are at or close to reaching terminal gravity), and then raise the temperature a couple degrees each day, up to 70 degrees for the following 7-8 days. The gradual temperature climb post primary fermentation will actually encourage yeast to metabolize any diacetyl, and also encourages other enzymatic activity (both outside and inside the yeast cell) that will break down other compounds that impact flavor. You should be able to safely cold crash on day 10-11. (consistent stable gravity readings will let you know, though...and of course, this all assumes you pitched appropriate quantities and at the appropriate temperature, and had minimal or no lag time)

Of course, you'll need to have an ability to control ferm temps to take advantage of this. But by no means do you need 14 full days at 62 degrees for a 1.045ish pale ale.