So Effing Close

[MyCarHasAbs]

so starters create a create a greater cell count?

 

[Subdivisions]

If you're not going to do a starter then you'd be better off using dry yeast. Even if you just sprinkle it in the fermenter dry you'll have a better pitch rate than a smack pack by itself.

 

[Subdivisions]

so starters create a create a greater cell count?

Yes, you're basically growing yeast

 

[VegasBrew1]

I have 7 batches in myself, all all grain. I'm no expert obviously, but I have found mash temps and water chemistry are of great concern. As is proper yeast pitching. I found a couple of tap water profiles on the web for my location. Plugged them into an easy water calculator and made some adjustments (predominantly RO and CaCl). Working with your mash tun should help get your temps right. I pour in about 180 F water, let my tun preheat for 15 minutes. If it's still to hot for dough in, just stir a little bit. A good thermometer really helps.
I am just trying to perfect 1 recipe for now. If you choose to keep trying different recipes, your water prep should reflect that. I KNOW it seems over whelming at first, but I consider it a significant part of the brewing process. IMHO, once the boil has begun, the hard work is over. Cheers.

 

[MyCarHasAbs]

If you're not going to do a starter then you'd be better off using dry yeast. Even if you just sprinkle it in the fermenter dry you'll have a better pitch rate than a smack pack by itself.

You very well may have just saved me a ton of money with that comment. Never would have thought that.

 

[Subdivisions]

You very well may have just saved me a ton of money with that comment. Never would have thought that.

If you use dry yeast I suggest follow instructions to re-hydrate it. It's pretty easy and you can find instructions on this site. A lot of yeast cells will die if you shock them by tossing it in the wort dry.

 

[sudbuddy]

Starters- I may do it this next go round if I can find some good vids on how to do it as I need visuals. Terrible reading comprehension. ADD sucks..

Pitch rate - could you elaborate? I'm still not sure I understand what a pitch rate is. I'm guessing the amount of active yeast cells??

Secondary - haha, we'll just agree to disagree. I'll let others shell out the flak haha. If after I change up the water and get starters going from here out and I'm still tasting twang then I'll go back to using the bucket and then racking to the carboy. But for me, I switched strictly to the carboy because my bucket developed an air leak uptop and I couldn't see any action. I like knowing there's a healthy krausen developing.

EDIT: unless you have evidence to suggest my 3-4 aging system is picking up off flavors from the dead yeast cells at the bottom...

Pitch rate is the # of cells per mL, you usually want about 1,000,000 per mL. That will probably help if you refuse to do secondary. You don't need to use buckets, just primary in a 6.5 carboy and finish it in a 5 gallon. If you follow good techniques you should lose the "green beer" character, the diacetyl will dissipate and most of the fusel alcohols should age out.

 

[Gavin C]

With regards to improving your process. Without a hydrometer it is impossible to know how effective you are being.

A hydrometer is useful for a myriad of reasons the least important of which is knowing how much alcohol you are making.
It will give you an idea as to
1: how good a job you did with your mash ( preboil sample) and therefore if you make changes to your mashing process will let you know their efficacy

2: what your brew house efficiency is. (Post boil sample). This will enable you to better formulate future recipes and better target appropriate OG/IBU ratios which will have a bearing on the balance and flavor of the beer

3: what stage your fermentation is at should you want to ramp up temperatures to facilitate a better attenuation and perhaps dryer beer.

4: the final gravity: the alcohol content. Is it consistent with the style of beer you were trying to make. Do guests or even yourself want to know if they can have 1,2,3 beers and still be ok to drive or work the next day. Not critical but certainly useful info..

In summary. I truly value my accurate, correctly calibrated hydrometer. I would encourage the utilization of one.

also as others have alluded to. Obtaining correct mash temperatures is a must if the wort is to contain the appropriate levels of fermentable sugars. What are you wanting. A dry or malty beer or somewhere in between. There are lots of online tools available.

I am a new brewer too. 1 year in. I believe it is imperative to really explore the science of brewing. I am no guru but from reading the thread I think it would be a fair assessment to say that there may be some gaps in your knowledge. We all have these gaps. Reducing them should be a goal. Understand the various chemical and biological processes involved and the ways to coax them to do what you, the brewer, wants. That is, refine your process to enable you to make the beer you have carefully planned; not the beer your systems imperfections dictate.

I would look at mash temps, and pitch rate first and foremost. I generally brew simpler recipes. Edwort and Yooper among others have some great ones on this site.

Wishing you every success in your brewing. Best of luck.

 

[sky4meplease]

It's definitely caused by not taking gravity readings!

But really just a thought because I believe this happened to me.

My first sparge arm was built from cheap pvc pipe. They make two kinds of this white pipe one is pvc and the other cpvc I think. Cheap pvc can leach solvents when exposed to high temperature liquids. I had a dozen brews under my belt when I stumbled across this information and was chasing down off flavors. Now I was changing a lot about my processes throughout when I made this change but I strongly believe it may have contributed. Check your system to make sure your hot liquids aren't being exposed to plastics that could leach chemicals.

Other than that grab a BJCP Beer Scoresheet and try to pick the proper term for your off flavor. Since "soapy" or "twangy" don't show up as descriptors on that sheet maybe picking one or two proper terms will help the qualified (not me) to help you pin it down.

 

[tnance1337]

4) yep, forget to mention that. I have a wort chiller now. (Told y'all I quadrupled on my supplies ;D ) Went from chilling for a ****ing hour to 15-20 minutes tops. The kettle lid stays on it while the chilling for the most part.

5) as I figured, 3-4 weeks should eliminate the need for readings unless I'm A) in a hurry to bottle and get wasted or B) desperately want to know how much alcohol I'm making which I'm not.

6) I used to use store bought water and then we bought a house and I guess I've put too much faith in the tap water. The stout tasted great but I am willing to bet any off flavors were masked from the strength of the natural stout flavor.

Couple of pieces I'd like to toss in here that may help you. Others have made some great comments on the importance of yeast pitching rates and temperatures, so hopefully you'll follow their advice.

It's great that you are now cooling your wort much quicker. Definitely a step in the right direction. I would suggest, though, that you leave the lid off the kettle. Some may disagree (mostly for fear of contaminants finding their way in), but you are also going to run into a bit of a concern with DMS. To put simply, DMS is a volatile off-flavor compound that adds a cooked vegetable flavor to beer (think creamed corn). It is usually evaporated during boiling, at a percentage rate equal to boil times, but will usually always be present in the final product (mostly because you won't boil off all of it, and DMSO can be converted by most yeasts to DMS during fermentation, even though some of it is "scrubbed" by CO2). This is one reason why fast cooling after boil is important. Now, one problem you will find is that DMS is still being produced during the cooling phase (and is unavoidable), and by leaving the lid on, you are allowing DMS to precipitate and be reabsorbed into the wort.

As mentioned earlier, gravity readings aren't exactly all about measuring alcohol content. I think your reasoning as to why you aren't concerned about gravity comes from being slightly less knowledgeable about brewing. Gavin C's reasoning is very sound, and I highly suggest you follow his advice. In short, it's all about dialing in. If you don't measure gravity (during all-grain, it's very important to measure gravity of each running during sparging), then you truly have no idea about the fermentables content in your wort, and in the end, that's a major factor in the final result. Will it be beer? Absolutely. But you're on a quest to make GOOD beer, so don't expect the yeast to work miracles for you (although when you learn more about yeast, they are quite amazing to say the least). Plus, it only takes seconds to measure.

Also, water chemistry. Learn it. Others have chimed in, and have great information to offer on it. Ultimately, this is very likely the cause of your twangy flavor. Alkalinity is usually the culprit. Mash pH and temperature will have a major impact on flavor for even the tiniest of changes.

Lastly, I agree with you that it probably isn't the more "exotic" ingredients imparting these off flavors. Don't misunderstand me here. However, if you want to fix your problem, simple is best. It's cheaper, and it will help you dial in your process first. You have some gaps in your process that I'd work on first before straying too far away in style. You'll be happy you did.

Good luck, and I can't wait to hear your triumphant exclamation that you destroyed this problem!

 

[MyCarHasAbs]

Couple of pieces I'd like to toss in here that may help you. Others have made some great comments on the importance of yeast pitching rates and temperatures, so hopefully you'll follow their advice.

1)It's great that you are now cooling your wort much quicker. Definitely a step in the right direction. I would suggest, though, that you leave the lid off the kettle. Some may disagree (mostly for fear of contaminants finding their way in), but you are also going to run into a bit of a concern with DMS. To put simply, DMS is a volatile off-flavor compound that adds a cooked vegetable flavor to beer (think creamed corn). It is usually evaporated during boiling, at a percentage rate equal to boil times, but will usually always be present in the final product (mostly because you won't boil off all of it, and DMSO can be converted by most yeasts to DMS during fermentation, even though some of it is "scrubbed" by CO2). This is one reason why fast cooling after boil is important. Now, one problem you will find is that DMS is still being produced during the cooling phase (and is unavoidable), and by leaving the lid on, you are allowing DMS to precipitate and be reabsorbed into the wort.

2)As mentioned earlier, gravity readings aren't exactly all about measuring alcohol content. I think your reasoning as to why you aren't concerned about gravity comes from being slightly less knowledgeable about brewing. Gavin C's reasoning is very sound, and I highly suggest you follow his advice. In short, it's all about dialing in. If you don't measure gravity (during all-grain, it's very important to measure gravity of each running during sparging), then you truly have no idea about the fermentables content in your wort, and in the end, that's a major factor in the final result. Will it be beer? Absolutely. But you're on a quest to make GOOD beer, so don't expect the yeast to work miracles for you (although when you learn more about yeast, they are quite amazing to say the least). Plus, it only takes seconds to measure.

Also, water chemistry. Learn it. Others have chimed in, and have great information to offer on it. Ultimately, this is very likely the cause of your twangy flavor. Alkalinity is usually the culprit. Mash pH and temperature will have a major impact on flavor for even the tiniest of changes.

Lastly, I agree with you that it probably isn't the more "exotic" ingredients imparting these off flavors. Don't misunderstand me here. However, if you want to fix your problem, simple is best. It's cheaper, and it will help you dial in your process first. You have some gaps in your process that I'd work on first before straying too far away in style. You'll be happy you did.

3) Good luck, and I can't wait to hear your triumphant exclamation that you destroyed this problem!

I relabeled your points to help narrow down the relations of my responses.

1) Dude...NEVER would have known that. I've never heard of such a thing. I'll keep the lid off from now on.

2) I think I"m more comfortable with the concept of taking the cap off the fermentor to do some minor maintenance now without the fear of allowing too much oxidation in there. I've done 8 batches now and not a single one has gotten an infection. This tells me I have the sanitation part under control and maybe I've been over protective of the wort. For gravity readings, I think my biggest fear/the reason why I'm not doing them...is because I'm not sure how to extract the wort safely while in a carboy. I have a turkey baster that should be able to suck up some wort but I'm worried about splashing and the plastic part of the baster isn't the most secure. It could potentially fall off and land in the wort. Long shpiel short, I know how to take a reading after seeing a few vids, but I haven't found a good vid that shows HOW to GET the wort out without causing issues. Also, I'll be rehydrating the dry yeast. I don't have the ingredients around to do a a starter. Rehydration of yeast sounds a lot easier from what I've read.


3) You're damn right I'll report back. I took advantage of that trifecta sale Midwest had and ordered 3 Big Ben Pale Ales. I'm not going to put anything fancy in it. If I read the ingredients correctly, it sounds like it should taste similar to the 60 Minute IPA.

 

[MyCarHasAbs]

It's definitely caused by not taking gravity readings!

But really just a thought because I believe this happened to me.

My first sparge arm was built from cheap pvc pipe. They make two kinds of this white pipe one is pvc and the other cpvc I think. Cheap pvc can leach solvents when exposed to high temperature liquids. I had a dozen brews under my belt when I stumbled across this information and was chasing down off flavors. Now I was changing a lot about my processes throughout when I made this change but I strongly believe it may have contributed. Check your system to make sure your hot liquids aren't being exposed to plastics that could leach chemicals.

Other than that grab a BJCP Beer Scoresheet and try to pick the proper term for your off flavor. Since "soapy" or "twangy" don't show up as descriptors on that sheet maybe picking one or two proper terms will help the qualified (not me) to help you pin it down.

For sparging, I prep 170f hot water and use a plastic measuring cup to scoop it out and I use my fiance's collander that she uses for pasta to sprinkle the hot water accordingly into the mash.

 

[russell58]

My suggestions for getting gravity from carboy is to get a wine thief I finally brought one from LHBS. It takes a lot of worry out of getting sample to check gravity. I also have Speidel with a spigot that I get samples from. Have to use San Star in the spigot and cover but both methods work.

Cheers

 

[MyCarHasAbs]

I found exactly what I need to take samples from my carboy. A beer thief! I have a wine thief but I don't think it would work the same as it does in this vid I watched. It looks like it works the same as what a bartender does to test a drink by sticking the stirring stick in the cocktail and holding their index finger at the top creating natural suction.

Now..where to find it for purchase.

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/attachments/f11/10929d1240943622-beer-thief-help-1648.jpg

EDIT: I found the product and it was the same vid that I found on YouTube. But I don't understand why you don't put the sample back in. Good thing I've never attempted this. I'd have screwed that part up badly. So you just fill the hydrometer up to about 3/4'ths full, measure and discard??

http://www.northernbrewer.com/shop/3-piece-thief-plastic.html

 

[tnance1337]

My suggestions for getting gravity from carboy is to get a wine thief I finally brought one from LHBS. It takes a lot of worry out of getting sample to check gravity. I also have Speidel with a spigot that I get samples from. Have to use San Star in the spigot and cover but both methods work.

Cheers

Bingo. Wine Thief!

I used a turkey baster for a few years while I was only fermenting in buckets. After I started fermenting more than a couple batches at a time, I added some carboys. Realized I needed a better way to pull a sample, because the baster was clumsy to use through the little mouth of a carboy. Plus, I would need to pull 2-3 times from the beer for enough volume to full the hydrometer sample. Enter the wine thief, and it was much easier.

A plastic one will cost you 6-10 bucks depending. They are long and thin, and easy to manage. I recommend.

Good luck on those pale ales, MyCarHasAbs! Let us know how it goes!

 

[MyCarHasAbs]

I have a wine thief but I don't understand how you'd empty the sample into test tube for the hyrdometer. Does it act similar to a bottling wand and have a spring at the bottom that when pressed releases the liquid?

 

[tnance1337]

With most wine thiefs (thieves?) you can actually insert your hydrometer directly into it, as they are designed for that particular use. Do a quick search on youtube for "How to use wine thief" and you'll find some examples.

 

[MyCarHasAbs]

With most wine thiefs (thieves?) you can actually insert your hydrometer directly into it, as they are designed for that particular use. Do a quick search on youtube for "How to use wine thief" and you'll find some examples.

I'll toy with it later tonight but it's quite long. Might have a hard time getting the hydrometer out haha. Why do some articles suggest tossing the samples and others pouring them back in from the inner walls of the carboy?

 

[1977Brewer]

Drink your hydrometer sample. Every time. Tasting it along the way is as important to understanding what's going on as the gravity. I wouldn't pour it back in anyway, too risky, too many points of contact no matter your sanitation practices.

 

[MyCarHasAbs]

After doing a quick test, I don't think my wine thief is the best for taking readings. Too much dripping for one thing.

Anyone disagree?

View attachment ImageUploadedByHome Brew1424740500.519389.jpg

 

[Gavin C]

Looks like an auto siphon without the cap.

 

[1977Brewer]

Looks like an auto siphon without the cap.

That's exactly what it is. It'll work fine in a pinch. Do you have a test tube?

 

[MyCarHasAbs]

That's exactly what it is. It'll work fine in a pinch. Do you have a test tube?

Sure do. Never used it haha.

1) a few drips here in there on the way out of the carboy won't bother anything?

2) how full do I fill the test tube up?

 

[1977Brewer]

1. Not if you sanitized it.

2. Dump it in there.

 

[McKnuckle]

You're making far too much out of a trivial brewing task. Did you ever play with a drinking straw as a kid? Put it in the glass, put your finger on top, and stare in wonderment as the liquid stayed in the straw? Then you'd drink it of course. That's how a wine thief works.

All you have to do is santize the business end, then dip it into the fermenter and pull out a sample. Typically you need 3 or 4 pulls to fill a hydrometer tube. Take out the airlock. Hold the thief in one hand and the tube in the other. Work over the fermenter, minimize drips, but RDWHAHB because it doesn't matter.

When done, pour the sample into a glass and start learning how beer tastes when it's fermenting. Or you can pour it back into the fermenter, as I often do - - I'm a terrible risk taker.

Either way this is truly no big deal, and it's a basic brewery task that you should learn how to do casually.

 

[tnance1337]

You're making far too much out of a trivial brewing task. Did you ever play with a drinking straw as a kid? Put it in the glass, put your finger on top, and stare in wonderment as the liquid stayed in the straw? Then you'd drink it of course. That's how a wine thief works.

All you have to do is santize the business end, then dip it into the fermenter and pull out a sample. Typically you need 3 or 4 pulls to fill a hydrometer tube. Take out the airlock. Hold the thief in one hand and the tube in the other. Work over the fermenter, minimize drips, but RDWHAHB because it doesn't matter.

When done, pour the sample into a glass and start learning how beer tastes when it's fermenting. Or you can pour it back into the fermenter, as I often do - - I'm a terrible risk taker.

Either way this is truly no big deal, and it's a basic brewery task that you should learn how to do casually.

QFT. I understand caution for sanitation, but in my opinion (just an opinion!), infection is highly unlikely with just a few drops from a wine/beer thief making it's way back into your carboy, unless you're REALLY unsanitary to begin with, but it sounds like you're not.

But, in case you are still paranoid about sanitation, do what I do, and keep an empty spray bottle (like 99 cents from walmart), and mix a solution of iodophor or starsan in the bottle. A couple of quick sprays on most of my equipment has never let me down. Just be sure to dump your spray bottle when you're done for the day. That solution has a limited shelf life of effectiveness.

 

[Skiffy]

I thought people keep their starsan solution for months? My bucket of solution has kept under 3 pH for some time now.

 

[tnance1337]

Also, to add that others have mentioned...the tasting of the sample.

Honestly, one of my favorite activities is the hydrometer sample every few days. It's actually an important part of my process. When I ferment, say, a pale ale, and I want main fermentation to set in at 64 degrees over 3-4 days, I need to take that gravity reading to check in on where the yeast is at. Yeast strains behave slightly differently from each other in ester production (among other flavor compounds), so not only am I checking fermentation, I'm also checking flavor production as I taste my samples. It will help me understand what my next steps are. If you're taking a gravity reading just to pour it back in to the carboy, you're missing out on an important step.

This is all of course, if you're really trying to dial in your system and processes. Some people just set it and forget it, and are happy with that. It's still beer right? Sometimes it might be great beer. Most of the time, however, it'll just be adequate beer. I say this because all of this advice given is about helping you make good beer, not adequate beer.

Cheers!

 

[McKnuckle]

The hydrometer tube holds about a half cup of beer. I pour most of it back, and reserve about a shot glass worth to taste. Best of both worlds.

 

[tnance1337]

I thought people keep their starsan solution for months? My bucket of solution has kept under 3 pH for some time now.

You are right on starsan. I think the general opinion is that starsan (once mixed and diluted) will be effective for quite some time, as long as the pH is at that low threshold. Mixing with distilled water and keeping the mixture free from O2 and sunlight exposure will prolong that shelf life. It is still limited, nevertheless. Iodophor, on the other hand, has a much shorter shelf life, something like 24 hours, as it degrades quite quickly.

But, if you're mixing a very small solution in a spray bottle, it's easy to just toss it once you're done (in my case, I usually use half a spray bottle on brew day), and mix up a new batch when I need it.