Smoothie Style Sours

[Rob2010SS]

Anyone seen any recipes for these smoothie style sour beers? I'm looking to brew one and I have a recipe built. I'm really just looking to compare it with other recipes and see if I'm on the right track but I'm having a hard time finding any! I found this one on Reddit but this is about all I've seen.

Anyone seen any good resources for these style beers?

Found this one as well...

 

[Dgallo]

Anyone seen any recipes for these smoothie style sour beers? I'm looking to brew one and I have a recipe built. I'm really just looking to compare it with other recipes and see if I'm on the right track but I'm having a hard time finding any! I found this one on Reddit but this is about all I've seen.

Anyone seen any good resources for these style beers?

Found this one as well...

Be far more simple in your grainbill. The flavors of a smoothly sour have nothing to do with grains so don’t complicate it.
70% Pilsner (more fruit colors will show with Pilsner than 2row)
20% malted wheat
10% flaked wheats or oats.
1.25-2lbs lactose. ( I’m a lower ended person)

and then do a vanilla bean tincture Of 2 or 3 vanilla beans scraped and diced in 3-4 oz of clean flavored/high proof vodka.

fruits and other flavored completely up to you.

 

[Rob2010SS]

Be far more simple in your grainbill. The flavors of a smoothly sour have nothing to do with grains so don’t complicate it.
70% Pilsner (more fruit colors will show with Pilsner than 2row)
20% malted wheat
10% flaked wheats or oats.
1.25-2lbs lactose. ( I’m a lower ended person)

and then do a vanilla bean tincture Of 2 or 3 vanilla beans scraped and diced in 3-4 oz of clean flavored/high proof vodka.

fruits and other flavored completely up to you.

You and I are very close on grain bill. Are your numbers for vanilla beans for a 5 gal batch?

 

[Dgallo]

You and I are very close on grain bill. Are your numbers for vanilla beans for a 5 gal batch?

Yes. The sour profile takes a lot away from the vanilla, Much more than dark roast notes do in a stout But you can def use 1 bean if you don’t care for it as much as I do

 

[Rob2010SS]

Yes. The sour profile takes a lot away from the vanilla, Much more than dark roast notes do in a stout But you can def use 1 bean if you don’t care for it as much as I do

No definitely want the vanilla profile. I'm doing an 18.5 gallon post boil batch so just wanted to clarify the amount of vanilla you were talking about. Lines up with what I use in stouts

 

[Rob2010SS]

What's your typical ending gravity with one of these? I'm sitting at an est 1.029 with the one I have built and that's with 4lbs lactose. Seems like it'd be a good fg for one but I haven't had too many examples

 

[Qhrumphf]

Take 45-45 wheat and 2-row beer with low bittering. Add 10% lactose. Ferment with whatever yeast because it doesn't matter. Make it 9% ABV.

Dose with lactic acid to pH 3.2. Now it's a "sour". Under no circumstances should you use actual LAB fermentation to sour it.

Dilute 1:2 with fruit puree. 5 gallons beer. 10 gallons puree.

Lie about ABV and say it's still 9%, and not 3%.

Keep cold, drink fresh. Blame inevitable gushers and can/bottle bombs on people not keeping cold and drinking fresh.

Upon death, deliver your soul as promised in the deal you made with the devil to do this.

 

[Dgallo]

Take 45-45 wheat and 2-row beer with low bittering. Add 10% lactose. Ferment with whatever yeast because it doesn't matter. Make it 9% ABV.

Dose with lactic acid to pH 3.2. Now it's a "sour". Under no circumstances should you use actual LAB fermentation to sour it.

Dilute 1:2 with fruit puree. 5 gallons beer. 10 gallons puree.

Lie about ABV and say it's still 9%, and not 3%.

Keep cold, drink fresh. Blame inevitable gushers and can/bottle bombs on people not keeping cold and drinking fresh.

Upon death, deliver your soul as promised in the deal you made with the devil to do this.

And can you believe their fanboys still support them and try to make excuses for them and all that BS? t’s just crazy to me.

 

[Rob2010SS]

Ha. Not going to lie, I started reading your post seriously. I was like, what the hell, why would you dose with lactic acid, that'd be nasty! Then I got to the line about lying about the ABV and knew who you were talking about lol.

@Dgallo what kind of FG's do you typically go for on these?

 

[Dgallo]

Ha. Not going to lie, I started reading your post seriously. I was like, what the hell, why would you dose with lactic acid, that'd be nasty! Then I got to the line about lying about the ABV and knew who you were talking about lol.

@Dgallo what kind of FG's do you typically go for on these?

I like to sit right around 1.020-1.022. I typically don’t use more than 1.25lbs of lactose for A 5gallon batch

 

[Qhrumphf]

Ha. Not going to lie, I started reading your post seriously. I was like, what the hell, why would you dose with lactic acid, that'd be nasty! Then I got to the line about lying about the ABV and knew who you were talking about lol.

@Dgallo what kind of FG's do you typically go for on these?

The sad part here is, you don't know who I'm talking about. And I don't know who you think I'm talking about. Because there have been a few of em.

(I was actually being generic. I don't know for sure if any of the ABV fraud instances are just dosing with lactic or actually making a sour, but I do know places that just dose with lactic and make excuses for their can bombs. But it seems all three of these inexcusable actions happen with regularity and sometimes multiples)

 

[Dgallo]

The sad part here is, you don't know who I'm talking about. And I don't know who you think I'm talking about. Because there have been a few of em.

(I was actually being generic. I don't know for sure if any of the ABV fraud instances are just dosing with lactic or actually making a sour, but I do know places that just dose with lactic and make excuses for their can bombs. But it seems all three of these inexcusable actions happen with regularity and sometimes multiples)

450 north got caught with 2 of the 3, abv and gushers. It was heavily rumored they were turning around 2.8 % beers in 5 days, dosing them with lactic acid, and adding fruit purée at canning. Then labeling them 8 % and getting $24 a 4 pk.

 

[Qhrumphf]

Yes, 450N was the first major one (I'm aware of) to get caught with the ABV fraud in this context (or at least the first to make major beer news and more or less become meme), and definitely one of the more extreme examples. But they're definitely not the only ones, and there's been a few high profile ones after as well. Now that folks know you can send a sample off to someone with the right equipment and have it measured, cats outta the bag for them.

The lacto dosing and can bombs however have been around as long as this style has been around. The latter readily seen at the consumer level.

If you're gonna do it the *right* way, more power to you. Not my style, so more for you eh?

Since I've used my chance to take the piss and have nothing of actual value to contribute to the topic at hand, I'll see myself out now. Cheers!

 

[Rob2010SS]

The sad part here is, you don't know who I'm talking about. And I don't know who you think I'm talking about. Because there have been a few of em.

(I was actually being generic. I don't know for sure if any of the ABV fraud instances are just dosing with lactic or actually making a sour, but I do know places that just dose with lactic and make excuses for their can bombs. But it seems all three of these inexcusable actions happen with regularity and sometimes multiples)

450N was the only one I had heard of so that's who I thought you were referring to. It's sad that there's even more...

 

[Rob2010SS]

I like to sit right around 1.020-1.022. I typically don’t use more than 1.25lbs of lactose for A 5gallon batch

So in 18.5 gallons post boil, 1.25lbs lactose/5 gal would be 4.625 lbs and I'm planning on 4lbs. So right around the same mark. I'm using a less attenuative yeast so that's probably the reason for a higher FG for me.

 

[Rob2010SS]

And what do you do for hops?

We do a strawberry rhubarb gose every year that turns out fantastic. We use a small bittering charge at 60 min but that's it. No other hops.

With these, would it be beneficial to add some nice fruity hops towards the end of the boil or is that kind of a waste because the fruit and the sour are really the stars of the show?

 

[RPh_Guy]

Sorry, I know this is a little off topic but there's something I've been wondering:
What is the reason to make these kinds of beverages as beer instead of actually making an alcoholic fruit smoothie with typical ingredients: fruit, yogurt, vodka (or fruit liqueur, wine, etc), and whatever else? Acid blend used for winemaking could make it as sour as you want ...and these are fruity acids as opposed to lactic acid, although lactic acid would also come from the yogurt.

I'm all for quality, so I'm wondering how these methods compare in your opinion. FYI I like a fresh fruity drink on occasion, and sometimes I make lemonade or sangria from scratch for example. I once made a great orange julius type drink by blending orange juice, ice cream, vodka, and then adding some mountain dew at serving for a little fizz.

I would think a good mixed drink recipe would be a lot less hassle and taste as good or possibly better than this kind of "beer". If I'm just wrong, that's fine. Curious what you think, and whether you've compared alternative methods.

Cheers

 

[Dgallo]

And what do you do for hops?

We do a strawberry rhubarb gose every year that turns out fantastic. We use a small bittering charge at 60 min but that's it. No other hops.

With these, would it be beneficial to add some nice fruity hops towards the end of the boil or is that kind of a waste because the fruit and the sour are really the stars of the show?

I don’t kettle sour, I used the copitched method so I don’t use any hotside hops, just a heavy dryhop. But it depends on what fruits you’re using in the sour. I do a passionfruit sour milkshake ipa that I dryhop exclusively with Galaxy. I also do one with raspberry, orange zest, and vanilla tht I dryhop with mosiac and Mandarina Bavaria. My advise is pair the hops with a fruit that shares a profile with it or a similar note you want to add

 

[Dgallo]

Sorry, I know this is a little off topic but there's something I've been wondering:
What is the reason to make these kinds of beverages as beer instead of actually making an alcoholic fruit smoothie with typical ingredients: fruit, yogurt, vodka (or fruit liqueur, wine, etc), and whatever else? Acid blend used for winemaking could make it as sour as you want ...and these are fruity acids as opposed to lactic acid, although lactic acid would also come from the yogurt.

I'm all for quality, so I'm wondering how these methods compare in your opinion. FYI I like a fresh fruity drink on occasion, and sometimes I make lemonade or sangria from scratch for example. I once made a great orange julius type drink by blending orange juice, ice cream, vodka, and then adding some mountain dew at serving for a little fizz

I would think a good mixed drink recipe would be a lot less hassle and taste as good or possibly better than this kind of "beer". If I'm just wrong, that's fine. Curious what you think, and whether you've compared alternative methods.

Cheers

Have you every had an extremely good example of this style? Say trillium’s daily serving or any beer from Hudson Valley Brewing Co?

I love the style personally but so many brewers are doing them wrong and making them extremely heavily, putting puree in kegs and cans so you literally get pulp in the beer you’re drinking. Both breweries I mentioned make it them very well with the body resembling a fluffy ipa and not overly sweet so that you genuinely get all the individual notes of the ingredients. I always try to imitate HVB when I brew the style

 

[RPh_Guy]

Have you every had an extremely good example of this style?

I've had beers that just taste like super sweet fruit juice, not anything from the particular breweries you mention. Sounds like I've just had bad examples then.

 

[AlDogWV]

There are a few breweries here in the Pittsburgh area that are killing it with this style. And I have to admit, despite being more of a traditionalist, there are some outstanding examples. However, to replicate anything I've tasted and seen poured in a glass seems nearly impossible to replicate using typical methods. I have brewed several "smoothie" sour recipes and while they have turned out amazingly well, the consistency and "thickness" isn't there. I believe there is a reason it says, "keep cold, drink fresh" on the can. And it ain't just because it tastes better that way.

 

[Rob2010SS]

To your point, I think the "keep cold, drink fresh" is on there because there's so much unfermented fruit in there that if it gets warm, it could referment in the can. The drinking fresh is probably because the fruit will go bad.

I will say the example that we brewed came out fantastic. I don't know how close it is to the commercial examples as there aren't a ton in my area. After talking with others, I definitely went more of a milkshake sour route instead of a smoothie style route - difference being sweeter, no real fruit chunks in the beer, thick like a milkshake. I love it and the feedback has been extremely positive, with only a couple people saying that they picked up on the aftertaste from the sweetener we used. Definitely an expensive one to brew, that's for sure!!! I think we were about $300 - $350 for a half barrel batch. Could have dropped that a little if I bought grains in bulk and if I had time to do starters for the yeast instead of buying multiple packs, but very happy with how it came out.

 

[AlDogWV]

To your point, I think the "keep cold, drink fresh" is on there because there's so much unfermented fruit in there that if it gets warm, it could referment in the can. The drinking fresh is probably because the fruit will go bad.

I will say the example that we brewed came out fantastic. I don't know how close it is to the commercial examples as there aren't a ton in my area. After talking with others, I definitely went more of a milkshake sour route instead of a smoothie style route - difference being sweeter, no real fruit chunks in the beer, thick like a milkshake. I love it and the feedback has been extremely positive, with only a couple people saying that they picked up on the aftertaste from the sweetener we used. Definitely an expensive one to brew, that's for sure!!! I think we were about $300 - $350 for a half barrel batch. Could have dropped that a little if I bought grains in bulk and if I had time to do starters for the yeast instead of buying multiple packs, but very happy with how it came out.

View attachment 700486

That does look great! Ours looked very similar, but still lacked the "thickness". I was VERY happy with it, too. I was just saying that the things a brewery has to do to get that is not conventional. Here's our recipe (used Philly Sour on this batch for the first time):

Boil Time: 60 min
Batch Size: 6.5 gallons (fermentor volume)
Boil Size: 8.2 gallons
Boil Gravity: 1.054
Efficiency: 75% (brew house)

Original Gravity: 1.068
Final Gravity: 1.019
ABV (standard): 6.47%
IBU (tinseth): 0
SRM (morey): 3.81
Mash pH: 0

FERMENTABLES:
5 lb - Pilsner (33.8%)
5 lb - Wheat Malt (33.8%)
2 lb - Flaked Oats (13.5%)
1.5 lb - Lactose (Milk Sugar) - (late addition) (10.1%)
5 oz - Acidulated (2.1%)
16 oz - Cane Sugar (6.8%)

HOPS:
2 oz - Cascade (7 AA), Type: Pellet, AA: 7, Use: Whirlpool for 20 min at 160 °F
2 oz - Citra (11 AA), Type: Pellet, AA: 11, Use: Whirlpool for 20 min at 160 °F
2 oz - Mosaic (12.5 AA), Type: Pellet, AA: 12.5, Use: Whirlpool for 20 min at 160 °F
1 oz - Cascade (7 AA), Type: Pellet, AA: 7, Use: Dry Hop for 10 days
1 oz - Citra (11 AA), Type: Pellet, AA: 11, Use: Dry Hop for 10 days
1 oz - Mosaic (12.5 AA), Type: Pellet, AA: 12.5, Use: Dry Hop for 10 days

MASH GUIDELINES:
Temp: 156 F, Time: 60 min, Amount: 9.01 gal

OTHER INGREDIENTS:
0.5 oz - Sweet Orange Peel 15 min left in Boil
6 lbs 2 oz - Vintner's Harvest Raspberry Puree in Secondary
0.5 oz - Sweet Orange Peel in Secondary

We talked about brewing this the same way, except next time instead of racking onto the raspberry puree in secondary and letting ferm out, we will let it ferm out, cold crash, rack onto the puree in a keg. If we keep it cold, it should be fine. Again, just to experiment.

That HAS to be the philosophy of some breweries for this style. There's no other way to get that consistency without it fermenting the fruit sugars. And would explain why the gushers are happening. And they happen quite a bit to some of the breweries here.

 

[formosabrews]

To your point, I think the "keep cold, drink fresh" is on there because there's so much unfermented fruit in there that if it gets warm, it could referment in the can. The drinking fresh is probably because the fruit will go bad.

I will say the example that we brewed came out fantastic. I don't know how close it is to the commercial examples as there aren't a ton in my area. After talking with others, I definitely went more of a milkshake sour route instead of a smoothie style route - difference being sweeter, no real fruit chunks in the beer, thick like a milkshake. I love it and the feedback has been extremely positive, with only a couple people saying that they picked up on the aftertaste from the sweetener we used. Definitely an expensive one to brew, that's for sure!!! I think we were about $300 - $350 for a half barrel batch. Could have dropped that a little if I bought grains in bulk and if I had time to do starters for the yeast instead of buying multiple packs, but very happy with how it came out.

View attachment 700486

Looks wonderdful.