Slow JAOM?

[drksky]

I made a batch of JAOM, except that I used D-47 instead of bread yeast. I had it, so what the heck. It's been going for two months and today the hydrometer read...1.070. What the?

 

[bkboiler]

did u feed the yeast with nutrient and potassium carbonate? also, i believe shaking at 2/3 and 1/3 sugar break is reported to be helpful. what was ur OG?

 

[drksky]

did u feed the yeast with nutrient and potassium carbonate? also, i believe shaking at 2/3 and 1/3 sugar break is reported to be helpful. what was ur OG?

I followed the recipe in the JAOM thread here except for the yeast. Which included raisins for nutrients.

OG that I have recorded is 1.150, which seems a bit high. Batch was 2.5 gallons, 9lbs honey, 1.75 gallons water. That was it.

Did not do any shaking after the initial mixing. I can still hear semi-regular bubbling coming from the airlock. On the order of maybe every 2 minutes. But it's pretty regular.

 

[honeycon]

The original recipe has no warranties if not followed exactly. Just finished a couple glasses of 6 week old JOAM. clear and delicious. ( sorry for rubbing it in)
You will likely need to not follow the JOAM protocol and treat yours like a regular mead. Aeration, nutrients, all that stuff that you do not do with a JOAM.

 

[drksky]

The original recipe has no warranties if not followed exactly. Just finished a couple glasses of 6 week old JOAM. clear and delicious. ( sorry for rubbing it in)
You will likely need to not follow the JOAM protocol and treat yours like a regular mead. Aeration, nutrients, all that stuff that you do not do with a JOAM.

Yeah...thanks for making me feel bad instead of maybe offering some helpful suggestions. That's just what I got to HBT for...

I don't need to be told I'm an idiot. I already know that.

 

[drksky]

This being my first mead I have no idea what, if anything, can be done to fix it. Can I shake it to get it going without oxidation? Can I add nutrients at this stage or is it too late? Do I just need to let it sit for 6 months and hope the yeast eventually finish? Repitch somthing?

 

[fossilcat]

What's been said by the previous posters is true, once you substituted D-47 for bread yeast, your mead stopped being JAOM. It's a balanced must, each ingredient had a job to do and an essential influence on the other ingredients. You're now in the realm of SNA and daily degassings.

And an OG of 1.150 is EXTREMELY high. I think bread yeast finishes around 8%; D-47 is rated to 14% (although with a properly controlled ferment it'll routinely go to almost 16%). If your must fermented dry, you'd have a alcohol content of close to 20%. Right now you're stalled at 11%? So exceedingly sweet.

So doom and gloom, right? I haven't experienced this scenario but my instinct would be to add another 1/2 gal of spring water to bring down your gravity, and raise your temp about 5* to encourage fermentation (what's your temp now?). Such a high OG can damage (kill) yeast through osmotic shock and cripple your yeast population. Stir gently daily to release CO2 - I wouldn't crank the spoon right now since it is 2/3's through it's full potential ferment and your goal is to release CO2 and not introduce O2. Less CO2 will raise the pH a bit, something your yeast will appreciate. Add a 1/2 teaspoon of fermaid O, introducing DAP so late in the ferment won't process. Read up on Staggard Nutrient Addition for next time. And recognize that yeast is not an additive - it's alive. Everything else is an additive that has an effect on the living quarters. Strive to make those effects positive.

 

[drksky]

Thanks for the thoughtful post. It's been sitting at room temp, which right now in Illinois is wherever I have the thermostat set, currently 70°. Best I would be able to do is put a heating pad underneath it set on low.

I'm not sure how it got to 1.150. Beersmith estimated that 9lbs of honey in a 2.5 gallon batch would be 1.124. I will try adding the spring water and yeast nutrient and see what happens.

And yes...it is exceedingly sweet.

 

[fossilcat]

Leave the temp where it is, then drop the temp 5* after you notice an increase in activity. D-47 is sensitive to temp. It is recommended to keep D-47 at 65* max. Higher than that increases your chances of fusels production that will take a while to age out.

 

[MarkKF]

I've heard JOAM needs and requires no racking.
But, is there anything wrong with transferring it to clear glass when done and letting it age?

 

[Maylar]

You wouldn't want to age it with fruit and spices in primary, so yeah. I racked mine once after the fruit fell, just to be sure it would be clear when bottled. It was awesome to witness the changes that time in the bottles imparted. Each bottle tasted better than the last.

 

[drksky]

My problem is that it's still way too high and I want it dry out more. As it is, it tastes pretty good, but it's cloyingly sweet, even though it's at 10% if my gravity readings have been correct.

 

[fossilcat]

That 1/2 gal addition should give you an adjusted OG of between 1.115 and 1.12. I do 2 to 2.5 gal batches - the 2 gals give me enough to drink and share while affordable enough to make a variety of different kinds. I usually split the batch to make slightly different versions, commonly oaking just one gallon. The 1/2 gal is to mitigate racking loss.

When ever I use 71B or d-47 (which is most of the time) I begin with an OG of 1.12. It routinely ferments dry. By adding a 1/2 gal of water to your must, I think your current gravity is down to at least 1.050. If you can coax 3 more clicks you'll be at a very tasty 1.020.

Continue to stir to keep the yeast off the bottom and maybe they'll be encouraged to produce more.

If this doesn't work out, and your yeast craps out and you're left with a too sweet mead, you could make a gal of real dry traditional mead - just honey and water - with d-47 and mix them. That would work.

 

[drksky]

That 1/2 gal addition should give you an adjusted OG of between 1.115 and 1.12. I do 2 to 2.5 gal batches - the 2 gals give me enough to drink and share while affordable enough to make a variety of different kinds. I usually split the batch to make slightly different versions, commonly oaking just one gallon. The 1/2 gal is to mitigate racking loss.

When ever I use 71B or d-47 (which is most of the time) I begin with an OG of 1.12. It routinely ferments dry. By adding a 1/2 gal of water to your must, I think your current gravity is down to at least 1.050. If you can coax 3 more clicks you'll be at a very tasty 1.020.

Continue to stir to keep the yeast off the bottom and maybe they'll be encouraged to produce more.

If this doesn't work out, and your yeast craps out and you're left with a too sweet mead, you could make a gal of real dry traditional mead - just honey and water - with d-47 and mix them. That would work.

I'm not super confident that I helped much. I added the 1/2 gallon of water, nutrient and stirred, but haven't really seen much of an increase in activity. I'll keep giving it an occasional stir and see what happens.

 

[drksky]

Haven't really seen much activity. I'll take another sample this weekend and see where it's at and make a decision about trying to blend something else in.

 

[drksky]

Took a sample today. Sitting at 1.047, but I'm thinking that's the effect of adding the 1/2 gallon of water last week. Still VERY sweet and don't see much airlock activity to speak of. The StarSan in it has some foam at the top, so I'm assuming it's bubbling once in a while. Would trying to add more yeast just be futile at this point?

Now, I'm thinking I'll just toss it in the basement and let it sit and see what happens. Question is, should I rack it off the fruit before putting it up?

 

[fossilcat]

Yes, I agree, that 1.047 is probably from the water addition. Even if you get a bubble every once in a while, your yeast population is probably not viable enough for an effective ferment. If you're up for it, I'd re-hydrate a packet of yeast and pitch. Also, it wouldn't hurt to add some potassium carbonate (or bicarbonate) to help buffer - the added potassium will be welcome too.

 

[honeycon]

Your current SG is about 9.5%. Not many yeasts will restart a ferment at that ABV. EC-1118 is one yeast that is typically used to restart a stuck ferment. Their is a procedure used to gradually introduce your must to a starter. Many threads here and at GotMead will explain it better than I can.
BTW, bread yeast usually stops at about 11-12% ABV with a JOAM.
Good luck.

 

[fossilcat]

honeycon is absolutely correct. Without conditioning the yeast to a high alcohol environment, you run the risk of killing them off from the shock. It's the same as dumping your 100* starter into your 70* must without attenuating. So I owe you a big appology - I didn't think this through thoroughly when giving advise.

I have a document that explains this process - I'll post it when I get home from work tonight. It's not a difficult process. Basically you continue to add half the volume of your re-hydration solution TO your re-hydration solution until everything is back in one container. I just can't remember the time frame and I don't want to guess.

 

[drksky]

I've read up on making the start with must. Can I use more D-47 or should I switch it to EC-1118 to account for the high alcohol?

 

[fossilcat]

Denard Brewing has a stuck fermentation protocol: https://denardbrewing.com/blog/post/Sfno/ and so does the Scott Labs Handbook 2015 (the 2016 version seems to just advertise the use of their own products so if you want to read up on theirs, google the 2015 version). Both suggest using yeast hulls as a way to absorb and eliminate, by eventually racking, toxins in your must. Sounds like a good idea for you.

Both also suggest making a starter. Both suggest an acclimation protocol. They're different, Denard Brewing is easier to follow in my opinion. There's also a starter primer on the Denard site in case you haven't built one before.

I'd suggest either EC1118 or K1-V1116 (I think 1116 gives a better flavor). Both have a high alcohol tolerance, both are recommended for restarting a stuck must. Denard suggests Uvaferm 43 but I haven't ever used or even seen it.

 

[drksky]

I made an EC-1118 starter from the must using another page I found while searching. At high krausen, I pitched it into the carboy and it has been happily bubbling away for the past 36 hours. More airlock activity than when I originally pitched the D-47.

 

[Maylar]

It'll be curious how this plays out. If the EC-1118 goes dry you'll have a high alcohol bitter mead. JAOM needs some sweetness unless you removed the orange pith. Good luck with it.

 

[drksky]

It'll be curious how this plays out. If the EC-1118 goes dry you'll have a high alcohol bitter mead. JAOM needs some sweetness unless you removed the orange pith. Good luck with it.

I had to do something. I could deal with sweet, but this was obnoxiously sweet.

 

[fossilcat]

And what you did was start up a stuck fermentation. That was the goal, worry about the taste later. There's ways to deal with that too. Congratulations! and good job sticking it out instead of throwing it out. Probably learned a lot I bet.

 

[drksky]

Probably learned a lot I bet.

Yeah...follow the recipe

 

[honeycon]

Yeah...follow the recipe

It only took me about 4 years to follow the recipe. Your way ahead of the curve.
I have had to dump 2, 1 gallon batches in that time.
1+ one the perseverance.

 

[drksky]

About a week since pitching the starter, airlock has been bubbling pretty regularly. Pulled as sample and it's down to 1.035, or 12 points lower that the last reading, so making progress.

Still very cloudy. Warm alcohol notes with a little bit of bitter pithy flavor. I'm going to rack it away from the fruit into a fresh carboy and let it keep going.

It's still sweet, but tolerable. If it keeps going much further, it's going to be HOT.

 

[OswaldvW]

Did you measure gravity with a hydrometer or refractometer?

 

[drksky]

Did you measure gravity with a hydrometer or refractometer?

Which time?

I used a refractometer pre-fermentation and a hydrometer every reading after fermentation started.

 

[Drewed]

... If it keeps going much further, it's going to be HOT.

It will keep going, or at least is should. I think you are going to have to let this one sit for awhile once she is done.


JAOM is an "Odd Duck" when it comes to mead. Almost everything about it is "wrong." Yet all those "wrongs" add up to a "right." Problem is when just one thing is changed, it will unbalance everything.

Sounds like your mead back on track. Just remember to treat it like a citrus mead now, and not like a JAOM and you should be fine.

 

[Maylar]

Then maybe your 1.150 was wrong? 9 lbs of honey in 2.5 gallons should have been a reasonable 1.126. Which still doesn't explain why the D47 stalled.

A classic JAOM will finish around 1.020. If you end up below that I'd say that's a good level to back sweeten it to.

 

[drksky]

Then maybe your 1.150 was wrong? 9 lbs of honey in 2.5 gallons should have been a reasonable 1.126. Which still doesn't explain why the D47 stalled.

A classic JAOM will finish around 1.020. If you end up below that I'd say that's a good level to back sweeten it to.

That's what I thought, but I calibrated the refectometer and measured it twice. The hydrometer I have only goes to 1.070

 

[drksky]

Hehe...I must have been drunk when I made this.

I just checked the refractometer and it only goes to 1.120, so who knows where I got that 1.151. I now vaguely remember using the refractometer and it was off the scale.

Oh wait...I have two hydrometers. The old cheap triple scale I have must be what I used as it goes up to 1.170.

 

[drksky]

1.026 today. HOT!

 

[fossilcat]

Well, I'm sure you're not surprised by that. But 1.026 is very drinkable, especially considering where you were. That high FG will help balance after some aging, I'm sure. Is the ferment done? If it is, cold crash it and rack a few times until it's clear. The multiple rackings will help degas, which will also help clear. When you're ready to bottle I'd use a few 375 ml bottles so you can pull one every once in a while to see how the aging process is going without getting too pi**ed when you have to throw it out because it still tastes like crap.

 

[drksky]

Well, I'm sure you're not surprised by that. But 1.026 is very drinkable, especially considering where you were. That high FG will help balance after some aging, I'm sure. Is the ferment done? If it is, cold crash it and rack a few times until it's clear. The multiple rackings will help degas, which will also help clear. When you're ready to bottle I'd use a few 375 ml bottles so you can pull one every once in a while to see how the aging process is going without getting too pi**ed when you have to throw it out because it still tastes like crap.

No, not surprising at all. Airlock is still venting, and I'm considering trying to stabilize it to stop it from going any further.

I'm planning on bottling it in 12oz crown cap bottles as I can't see ever finishing even a 375ml bottle before it goes belly up. Might even put it in a keg and carb it. I kind of like the light carb that it has in the fermenter.

 

[drksky]

So, after doing some reading, is it better to let the yeast finish what they're doing and back sweeten instead of trying to stop the fermentation?

But if back sweetened, you still have to add stabilizers to keep fermentation from starting back up? Seems like a potayto-potahto situation.

 

[fossilcat]

See the attached on the use of sorbate for stabilizing. When I was researching a couple years ago I found this website by some guy named Hightest - he had a bunch of useful information. I downloaded some of it, I wish I'd collected more because the site is gone now. But this doc might help you make your decision.

View attachment Sorbate.pdf

 

[MarkKF]

But if back sweetened, you still have to add stabilizers to keep fermentation from starting back up? Seems like a potayto-potahto situation.

Yeah but....getting an active fermentation to stop and drop all the yeast is a lot harder than just waiting for it to finish and clear.