Single tier foldable stand - concept

[Mountainsax]

First, thanks to everyone that has posted their DIY builds. Great work and lots of ideas have been stolen!!

I am hoping to build a 10-15 gallon all grain system after the first of the year. I thought I would put up these conceptual drawings of the brew stand. I would like to go electric, so you can see that I haven't accounted for burners. Hopefully it will give someone some good ideas.

Stand must haves:
- fit 3 15.5 gal keggles
- fit into 2 ft x 3 ft space for storage
- keggles fit underneath for storage (currently two fit underneath, one on top)
- some work space

Expanded Rig

Rig with sides folded

 

[BroomVikin]

I love the idea. I'd be interested to see what ideas/ improvements others come up with.

 

[Mountainsax]

Added keggles for perspective, some additional supports to the side wings, and place holders for a couple pumps.

 

[cubalz]

Interesting concept. What engineering safety measures will you actually employ on the foldable legs to keep them from accidentally folding while under load from the full keggles? I think side wings supports alone would make we more than a little nervous. Most anyone who makes their own metal brew stand over engineers the crap out of them. (take a look at Lonnie Mac's design) I have a stand built using those plans and I could probably rest my wife's Nissan Altima on it...

Love your idea, just be safe with the design...

 

[PlexVector]

A variation of what you're trying to achieve, but with out hinges, would be a rigid design you stand on end for storage and rigged to store the pots vertically internally.

 

[iijakii]

Also, looks like you could do away with the middle-leg hinges and just have it hing at the top connection. Double-check on the dimensions, might have to make the wings a couple inches longer to ensure room. But that'd be an improvement IMHO.

 

[JonW]

If you're making the center section wide enough to hold two of the keggles, why not just make a single end foldable for the 3rd keggle? With the way it is currently designed, it appears much wider than it needs to be for 3 keggles.

 

[Mountainsax]

Interesting concept. What engineering safety measures will you actually employ on the foldable legs to keep them from accidentally folding while under load from the full keggles? I think side wings supports alone would make we more than a little nervous. Most anyone who makes their own metal brew stand over engineers the crap out of them. (take a look at Lonnie Mac's design) I have a stand built using those plans and I could probably rest my wife's Nissan Altima on it...

Love your idea, just be safe with the design...

Thanks cubalz! Safety is definitely a concern since I have 5 kids 11 and under running around! I plan to use 2 or 3 welded hinges to attach the wings to the main body (all hinges will be welded). I also will do some kind of lock at all the hinged locations on the wing legs. I haven't decided on exactly what type of lock to use, first thoughts are something like this...

 

[Mountainsax]

A variation of what you're trying to achieve, but with out hinges, would be a rigid design you stand on end for storage and rigged to store the pots vertically internally.

I have definitely thought about something like this. That was actually my original thought, but as my wife says, I like to over complicate everything! Still might consider the rigid design if this gets too overwhelming.

 

[PlexVector]

Maybe rather have the wings slide in/out (telescope?) from the main structure. Although the top surface will not be the same height, but that should not be an issue.

 

[Mountainsax]

Also, looks like you could do away with the middle-leg hinges and just have it hing at the top connection. Double-check on the dimensions, might have to make the wings a couple inches longer to ensure room. But that'd be an improvement IMHO.

If you're making the center section wide enough to hold two of the keggles, why not just make a single end foldable for the 3rd keggle? With the way it is currently designed, it appears much wider than it needs to be for 3 keggles.

Both good suggestions! The problems I ran into (and I will re-look at the measurements) is that when you make the wings longer, you have to make the base taller, to accommodate the folded wing. This means the legs have to be longer! It always seemed like the legs were just a couple inches too long to fit.

One solution may be to have a little lip on the side of the main stand that allows for the legs to fold in...

 

[Mountainsax]

Maybe rather have the wings slide in/out (telescope?) from the main structure. Although the top surface will not be the same height, but that should not be an issue.

Nice! If you put two keggles on the main stand and one on the slide out wing, the heights wouldn't have to be exact. Great idea!

 

[Mountainsax]

Here is where I could use some advice from an engineer in the audience!

This is what I see as the week point in the build; the hinges between the main body and the wing (circled in red below). If these are welded (2 or 3 hinges), and nice and beefy will they support the weight of a full keggle fully on the wing? Would I need to add another leg (or two?) to that side of the wing? I figure 200 lbs for the keggle, contents, and wing weight.

 

[cubalz]

Here is where I could use some advice from an engineer in the audience!

This is what I see as the week point in the build; the hinges between the main body and the wing (circled in red below). If these are welded (2 or 3 hinges), and nice and beefy will they support the weight of a full keggle fully on the wing? Would I need to add another leg (or two?) to that side of the wing? I figure 200 lbs for the keggle, contents, and wing weight.

I am a Senior Engineer and have been for more years that I can count. Just to clarify: The reason I am trying to sway you from hinging that section is that while you are saying that you are considering using "beefy" hinges, according to your design no matter how stout your hinges are the full weight of each side is being borne on the pins alone. The weight of the full keggle along with heat cycles could cause the hinge fingers to potentially shear the pins over time. Another concern is having outrigger legs with multiple hinge points. Every hinge point represents weak points and loss of rigidity. While it is a super innovative idea, it seems very unsafe.

 

[Mountainsax]

I am a Senior Engineer and have been for more years that I can count. Just to clarify: The reason I am trying to sway you from hinging that section is that while you are saying that you are considering using "beefy" hinges, according to your design no matter how stout your hinges are the full weight of each side is being borne on the pins alone. The weight of the full keggle along with heat cycles could cause the hinge fingers to potentially shear the pins over time. Another concern is having outrigger legs with multiple hinge points. Every hinge point represents weak points and loss of rigidity. While it is a super innovative idea, it seems very unsafe.

cubalz, thanks for the clarification. I wasn't thinking about the hinge pins being an issue! Definitely disappointing, I was kind of getting attached to the design! But safety has to come first!

Back to the digital drawing board...:smack:

 

[PlexVector]

Even with a good weld on the hinges, each is still a single point of failure that could be catastrophic. For example the folding legs will have play and there can be a lot of force on the welds without some type of lateral bracing. Over time they could start breaking loose.

At the main table one fix for example would be moving the circled hinges to the legs and offset the horizontal member onto the "red" legs then if a weld breaks there is still mechanical support. (of course you would need a little gap in the horizontal members to accommodate the swing.)

Also, rather than a double hinged leg, it may be better to have it lock diagonally to the base of the main structure, or just a single hinge at the top.

Another thing to consider is to use a temporary bolt that can lock the hinges in place as well as provide the backup in case a weld breaks. There is a lot of hot water in a container you need to keep control of during a single point failure.

Edit: I concur with @cubalz that this is not a safe design. Sorry.

 

[NickTheGreat]

I don't like the hinge idea either. Some sort of knee brace on that corner would go a long ways.

Depending on the dimensions of the structure, 1.5" sq tube goes inside 2" sq tube. could help the telescoper option, but your retracted overall length would have to increase. May not be a good idea

 

[brewstarke]

What if instead of hinging the legs, you made each side leg into solid unit (upside down L shape) that acts sort of like a table leaf that pulls out so the weight is bearing on the outside legs and the main middle frame. The top supports would have to be offset I suppose to allow each side leg frame to slide back into the center. I kicked a similar idea around a while back but ended up moving towards just a standard single tier.

 

[PlexVector]

expanding on @brewstarke ...the top is just as you have it, which folds downward. The front and rear sides are four sided vertical frames that swing from the main vertical brace like a door. use swiveling wheels on the end of the vertical braces. So basically the top rests onto the sides or locks them in place. For storage the side rotate around against the main frame and the top swings down. Should stir some other ideas to create what you want and still be safe.

 

[Mountainsax]

Thanks for the ideas! Here is version 2. I added another piece to the main body to support the wing, moved the hinges (which now don't support any weight), and added sockets for the legs to fit into. When stored, the legs will go into a bracket in the back.

Thoughts?

 

[JPicasso]

This is fun! I love the idea of your modular cart. Your last drawing looks great. However, I think you'll need to figure out some other sort of mechanism to attach the legs. With the needed supports on the hinged part, you won't be able to rotate (in the top picture) counter-clockwise without putting terrible forces on the hinges. See attached.

I think if you could slide the legs in to the bracket like the green arrows, you'd be okay. but you'll need some sort of way to secure them in.

 

[DurtyChemist]

What if you welded a piece of rod that the black colored shelf would slide over? It only adds a little bit of length overall, could ace as handles and removes the need for hinges while also giving you some support. A similar idea to the orange legs you have that are removable.

 

[dfess1]

You could make the middle portion out of something like 2" ID square tubing. Then make each wing 2" OD (or a hair less) square tubing. just drill some holes at each end of the main portion, and end of the wing tubing to secure with a pin of some sort (1/2" bolt, etc). Think trailer hitch. Can do the same for the feet of the wings so it'll be leveled out once you extend it.

The bigger problem, be it this design or your folding design (outside of the mentioned hinge load), you haven't mocked any of this up yet with a burner assembly in there. That's alot more to try and fit in there.

Actually, looking at the image at the top of this page, you could do this:

Go with what I described, but make the part that slides in, the actual legs, not the top of the wing. So the legs would have to be the actual height you want. This might make your middle portion a bit longer. But as Jon pointed out, you could just make it so that only one wing is needed. This way, when you slide the legs in for storage, the burner assembly would be on the side, not really interfering with the rest of the stand. If i was any good at sketch up (which I'm not), I'd draw it out for you.

To do all of that though, you'd need a separate gas line for the one burner, or have to reconnect/disconnect each time you use it. Not the end of the world, but not as sexy as it could be. I mean, you're just tightening/loosening a nut on a gas line.

 

[Mountainsax]

This is fun! I love the idea of your modular cart. Your last drawing looks great. However, I think you'll need to figure out some other sort of mechanism to attach the legs. With the needed supports on the hinged part, you won't be able to rotate (in the top picture) counter-clockwise without putting terrible forces on the hinges. See attached.

I think if you could slide the legs in to the bracket like the green arrows, you'd be okay. but you'll need some sort of way to secure them in.

I like the idea JPicasso! I was trying to figure out how to get the legs in too, without having to lift up the whole darn thing. I was going to secure the legs with some through pins or bolts. I could just make the sleeves for the legs three sided so the legs can slide in from the side.

 

[Mountainsax]

You could make the middle portion out of something like 2" ID square tubing. Then make each wing 2" OD (or a hair less) square tubing. just drill some holes at each end of the main portion, and end of the wing tubing to secure with a pin of some sort (1/2" bolt, etc). Think trailer hitch. Can do the same for the feet of the wings so it'll be leveled out once you extend it.

The bigger problem, be it this design or your folding design (outside of the mentioned hinge load), you haven't mocked any of this up yet with a burner assembly in there. That's alot more to try and fit in there.

Actually, looking at the image at the top of this page, you could do this:

Go with what I described, but make the part that slides in, the actual legs, not the top of the wing. So the legs would have to be the actual height you want. This might make your middle portion a bit longer. But as Jon pointed out, you could just make it so that only one wing is needed. This way, when you slide the legs in for storage, the burner assembly would be on the side, not really interfering with the rest of the stand. If i was any good at sketch up (which I'm not), I'd draw it out for you.

To do all of that though, you'd need a separate gas line for the one burner, or have to reconnect/disconnect each time you use it. Not the end of the world, but not as sexy as it could be. I mean, you're just tightening/loosening a nut on a gas line.

I like the idea of sliding the legs in... I'll have to look at that more. I didn't want to pursue the sliding in sides initially because I'm hoping to make the tops solid stainless, but this could solve that issue. Right now I am planning on going all electric, so there is no need for fitting burners in.

Thanks for all the ideas! Hopefully someone else is getting some ideas from this too.

 

[TeamAshBrewing]

This is a great thread, and I will throw out an idea for thought. How about not using hinges at all, and use 3 U-shaped holders welded on the main cart between the supporting braces of the wing. You could keep the extra legs on the main cart for added support as well. So the wing would just rest in the U-Shaped holder when in use. And you would lift up on the wing and rotate it down for storage.

 

[Mountainsax]

Something like this?

Any thoughts on whether two hooks like this would safely hold the weight of a full 15 gal kettle?

 

[PlexVector]

I like the idea JPicasso! I was trying to figure out how to get the legs in too, without having to lift up the whole darn thing. I was going to secure the legs with some through pins or bolts. I could just make the sleeves for the legs three sided so the legs can slide in from the side.

The sleeve length for the legs need to be at least twice the width for stability and if you are going to slide the legs into the sleeve from the side then at least 3X to accommodate two bolts. Also to have access to the other end of the bolt to secure with a cotter pin or wing nut then the open portion of the sleeve would have to be from the front face for each sleeve. At least how its drawn in the previous picture. Just my two cents...

 

[TeamAshBrewing]

Something like this?

Any thoughts on whether two hooks like this would safely hold the weight of a full 15 gal kettle?

Yes, that's what I was thinking. If you're worried about strength, maybe 3 of them, or widen them

 

[Mountainsax]

Here are the legs in the sleeves with pins. The sleeves could be cut to allow side entry. I added an H-brace on the legs for side-to-side stability to account for the now 3-sided sleeves.