Single Tier, 3 Pump, BCS-462, Automated Rig

[BryngelBrau]

I got ahold of the company in china. I was quoted ~$39.00 each. I asked for a quote on eight and shipping from china to Ohio was $80. As much as I want them, I'm going to have to go with manual valves for now. FYI, ONE valve from grainger was over 300!

http://www.oscsys.com/store/product/294

These work and the shipping is cheaper, might be the same ones but already imported. I went with these on my system.

 

[lgoolsby]

Jon,

Few more questions. Hope you don't mind...

It looks like what you did was come straight off the SSR to a 3 prong plug and then just plugged the pumps and solenoids directly in like a normal plug. Is that correct? If so, how did you figure wire gauge to handle the load?

Also, I have been reading a lot of your replies on the BCS boards and notice a lot of people talking about relay boards. Can you give a layperson a two second explanation of why a relay board would be of use? I suspect it has to do with having multiple devices 'fire' based off one SSR, but that seems a bit...excessive. I have been a computer programmer for the past 10 years, but other than building PC's I have rarely delved into the world of hardware and I am finding myself a bit out of sorts.

Thanks in advance!

 

[JonW]

It looks like what you did was come straight off the SSR to a 3 prong plug and then just plugged the pumps and solenoids directly in like a normal plug. Is that correct? If so, how did you figure wire gauge to handle the load?

Yes, each SSR under the stand is wired to a set of duplex outlets. There are 6 outlets in total, 3 for the pumps and 3 for the gas solenoid valves.

Also, I have been reading a lot of your replies on the BCS boards and notice a lot of people talking about relay boards. Can you give a layperson a two second explanation of why a relay board would be of use? I suspect it has to do with having multiple devices 'fire' based off one SSR, but that seems a bit...excessive. I have been a computer programmer for the past 10 years, but other than building PC's I have rarely delved into the world of hardware and I am finding myself a bit out of sorts.

An SSR is a relay - a Solid State Relay. Being "Solid State", means that it does not have mechanical moving parts. It's actuator can be triggered by a very low input voltage/current. For BCS purposes, SSR's are usually used for high voltage switching.

A relay board on the other hand uses mechanical relays. A mechanical relay usually requires a much higher current to trigger the relay coil. When using a relay board with the BCS, people often use 12 volt relays that have a darlinton transistor for triggering the relay. This allows the relay to be powered from 12 volt, but triggered from 5v. Like an SSR, you can trigger high voltage items from a mechanical relay (like pumps or solenoid valves), but for heating elements, you must use SSR's because of how fast they cycle on and off.

The bottom line on using these types of relays is that the BCS (and most microcontrollers) put out very little current for switching, so you need to use either SSR's or transistor based relays.

Does all that make sense?

 

[lgoolsby]

Thanks Jon, that helps some. I am still a bit confused on what makes someone choose between an SSR and a relay board. Is it just a matter of preference or is it for systems that are 24V vs. 120VAC. My stand is going to be propane and 120VAC (already bought the ball valves, solenoids, motors, SSR's, and BCS), I am just wondering if I missed or overlooked something. I saw someone on the BCS forum with a great idea of adding a sump pump to pump cold water through the plate chiller and I believe it was a 12V DC motor. I like the idea and might incorporate that into my build, but I only have been eyeballing a 120VAC 'fish pond' pump. I assume that it would just be an SSR and duplex plug, right? I guess I am mostly confused with when and why I would switch from 120VAC to anything else? Feel free to point me to internet sites, I know this is probably pretty basic electronics theory so I am not afraid to RTFM.

Thanks again for your help Jon. You have and continue to be a massive help.

 

[calebstringer]

I know earlier In this thread you said you didn't hav any issues with your pumps priming....I just built a rig with an identical plumbing setup as yours, except I am using manual ball valves, and I'm fighting alot with air pockets and starving the pumps. Any suggestions?

 

[Tomtanner]

I know earlier In this thread you said you didn't hav any issues with your pumps priming....I just built a rig with an identical plumbing setup as yours, except I am using manual ball valves, and I'm fighting alot with air pockets and starving the pumps. Any suggestions?

Same here.

 

[JonW]

I rarely have any priming issues. Here's what I attribute it to... First, when my processes start, the valves open and the BCS is set to wait 5 seconds before firing the pumps. This allows some time for the air to burp through the system. The second thing I do is I generally don't attach the hoses on the inside of the kettles until after the pump fires and starts recirculating. I then just shut the valve at the top of the kettles briefly while the pump is running to attach the hose. If you don't do this, then the air can't burp out.

 

[oakbarn]

While I have yet to get my BCS, I prime my pumps with water from on of the hose water. I simply connect a garden hose (drinkwater quailty and hook up to the out let and flow water backwards into my BK, and HLT as well as our MLT. Not a lot and low pressure, but we do get rid of all the air in the pumps and lines. I later recycle either hot water or Hot Wort so there is no worry about contamination.

 

[lgoolsby]

Brewed today with the new igniter system. It worked flawlessly! The BCS fires the igniters for a few seconds every time a gas valve opens. My standing pilot lights kept getting blown out by wind, so this was a nice change.

FYI - there is no safety system on these. If the igniter doesn't light the burner, then gas will still be flowing. I have a manual override button to also trigger the igniters in the event the 3 second auto-trigger does not get them lit (which did not happen at all today). Just like when using the pilot light system, I do not leave the area just in case a burner does not light for any reason.

The igniter is a 3 probe igniter from Walmart (about $20). It uses a single AA battery for firing the igniters. I hardwired the switch of it to a DC SSR. The BCS triggers the SSR, which triggers the igniter. Simple setup.

Any chance we could get a pic of the IC you built for the ignitors? I think I am going to go this route rather than the Honeywell approach for now (if I find that the BCS occasionally misses I will switch at least my MLT to a
Honeywell since it will fire frequently).

 

[allclene]

Was looking at your rig very nice! have one question, I noticed you have your pump inputs on the bottom. Do you have a problem with priming that way? do you think it would work if the pumps were turned 180 degrees?

 

[calebstringer]

Was looking at your rig very nice! have one question, I noticed you have your pump inputs on the bottom. Do you have a problem with priming that way? do you think it would work if the pumps were turned 180 degrees?

That is how march says to set up the pumps. However, I am currently fighting with some priming issues.... I've built a nearly identical rig

 

[allclene]

That is how march says to set up the pumps. However, I am currently fighting with some priming issues.... I've built a nearly identical rig

I have been looking at other threads throughout this forum and it looks like people are puting the inlet up or sideways so it will prime by gravity through the pump. that's why I ask you. I am building a rig similur to yours and i was gonna put the pumps the other way.

 

[JonW]

The suggested orientation is inlet down. That allows the air to rise and escape from the head.

If you have posted pics in a build thread, point me there as there are other issues that come into play and I might be able to spot something. I've built a few stands and wrestled with priming issues a lot in the past.

(Please don't post your build pics in this thread).

 

[allclene]

I got the PDF file for the pump and it just says to put the arrow in direction of flow for the system. Here's the link.
http://www.marchpump.com/site/files/966/112196/382493/612759/0809-0053-1100_R3.pdf
I had mine with the inlet to the left and outlet to the right on my old rig. It worked good.

 

[JonW]

I'm sure there are successful installations using the pump head in all 4 available orientations. The orientation of the head is only 1 variable in the puzzle. Other variables include distance of pump under kettle, hose lengths, hose routing (draping, straight vertical, horizontal, etc.), hose diameters, fitting diameters, number of elbows, vertical pumping distance to return to kettle, fittings on the return/exit side, etc, etc, etc. Very few installations are the same, so each person has to deal with different variables that may affect their priming.

Here's a thread from Walter at March where the topic of orientation comes up several times. He always suggests having the outlet at the top if at all possible.
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f11/qu...swered-factory-210199/index2.html#post2819788

 

[allclene]

Thanks for the input. I am building my new rig now and am cloning yours somewhat hope you don't mind. I'm using an allen bradley plc and labview for the software though. And I'm taking your advise and putting the pumps inlet down.

 

[calebstringer]

Jon,

Do you mind describing your cleaning process after your brew day please?

Thanks!

 

[JonW]

Do you mind describing your cleaning process after your brew day please?

I dump my grain via the tippy dump and clean the kettle off the rig. I also clean the BK off the rig.

For the plumbing, I progressively open valves and flush water through the whole system. I have a water shutoff valve with a QD attached to it that I put on the first disconnect on the left. I start by disconnecting all hoses from the kettles, but leaving them connected to the bottom rail and just laying on the cement.

I then start progressively opening valves from left to right. I flush each line about 30 seconds (at full water pressure - probably 40+ PSI). After the line is flushed, I attach it back to the kettle and shut the kettle valve so that water can't flow into the kettle. I then open the next valve and flush again. This causes water to only flow to the next open hose so I can progressively flush each line, one at a time. I also remove my chiller and flush it both forwards and backwards with water. This process takes 5-6 minutes total.

I then leave all valves open for storage and hang all my hoses on the wall of the garage.

After about 6 brew sessions, I do a PBW mix in the HLT, recirc, then move it to the MLT, recirc, then to the BK and recirc.

 

[gifty74]

There is no adjustment to the solenoid valves, but I have manual valves on them as well. I set the flame level with the manual valves and then the solenoids just cycle on and off at that level.

Jon, I have these same burners and have yet to get them installed on a rig (in planning stages). I've been reading a lot that on NG they like to run pretty much wide open (to get the venturi effect and proper burn) or slightly throttled down. My concern on my direct fired mash plan is that inability to throttle them down much is going to be too hot and I'll have scorching problems. The best for a direct fire recirc setup on the MT is a nice low flame that can gradually heat the wort under the FB as it is being recirculated. Have you had any of these issues? Are you able to throttle down the burner under the MT to your satisfaction?

 

[JonW]

Jon, I have these same burners and have yet to get them installed on a rig (in planning stages). I've been reading a lot that on NG they like to run pretty much wide open (to get the venturi effect and proper burn) or slightly throttled down. My concern on my direct fired mash plan is that inability to throttle them down much is going to be too hot and I'll have scorching problems. The best for a direct fire recirc setup on the MT is a nice low flame that can gradually heat the wort under the FB as it is being recirculated. Have you had any of these issues? Are you able to throttle down the burner under the MT to your satisfaction?

I run the burner on the MT wide open when heating the strike water and then throttle it back down after I mash in. I have no issues running it lower during the recirc.

If you forget to throttle it down after heating the strike water though, you will get some quick spikes in the temp. Because my system is BCS controlled, I have what I call a "Mash in rest" for 5 minutes. This stops the burner and pump once it's at strike temp so that I can mash in. At the expiration of the 5 minute timer, it triggers an audible alarm to alert me to the fact that it is going to resume heating & recirculating. At this point I set my liquid flow rate returning to the kettle and I drop the flame very low (I just estimate where the gas valve needs to be because it takes a while after mash in before it needs to re-fire for any additional heat).

 

[gifty74]

I run the burner on the MT wide open when heating the strike water and then throttle it back down after I mash in. I have no issues running it lower during the recirc.

Sounds good. So when you throttle it down you don't have any issues with getting an orange flame (which I've read is improper burn)? The tips still burn blue, just at a lower rate? The other issue I've seen on a friend's rig is that he senses temp on the inlet back to the MT (at the end of the recirc channel), and when he fires it heats the wort up very quickly that is flowing through the recirc channel (because it's pulling the wort from right above the flame). This causes the temp probe to read up in the 160's very quickly, and hence trigger the solenoid to shut off the flame. How do you keep from getting this quick spike, and properly control the temp throughout the MT? With direct fire it seems tough to get heat into the system because the probe sees a big spike as soon as the flame is turned on.

 

[fall-line]

The other issue I've seen on a friend's rig is that he senses temp on the inlet back to the MT (at the end of the recirc channel), and when he fires it heats the wort up very quickly that is flowing through the recirc channel (because it's pulling the wort from right above the flame). This causes the temp probe to read up in the 160's very quickly, and hence trigger the solenoid to shut off the flame. How do you keep from getting this quick spike, and properly control the temp throughout the MT? With direct fire it seems tough to get heat into the system because the probe sees a big spike as soon as the flame is turned on.

+1 I was going to ask JonW this exact same question.

 

[JonW]

Yes, my flame is a bit orange/yellow at times, but it isn't anything real bad and doesn't leave a huge black mess on the kettle.

I think the key to avoiding the temp spikes is a good recirculation rate. If the flame is low and the recirc rate is quick enough, you don't overheat the wort. On my Blichman's, I can open the recirc valve almost full to recirc (at least with a 2 row based recipe), but I usually keep it about half open.

 

[fall-line]

Thanks, JonW. I'll keep experimenting. So far I'm still using manual control, so it's a bit of a different situation. I'm not convinced it is a problem, but I have noticed that the wort coming out of the return port is quite a lot hotter than the rest of it due to the pickup being right on the kettle bottom. As with anything, it just requires some getting to know your system.

 

[gifty74]

I'm going to be using these same burners, and getting my manifold put together this week. I was just wondering what's the optimum height from the kettle for these burners? I've seen anywhere from 10" to 4" from the bottom of the pot. I'm going to be using keggles as my pots.

 

[JonW]

I think my burners are around 4-5" from the kettles. However, there really is no 1 height that is perfect for them because there are other factors that affect performance. Things like stand design (top shelf configuration), venting, gas pressure, etc. all play a little role in determining your height. My suggestion is to design your manifold in such a way that you can swap out the vertical riser nipples to different heights to test what works best in your configuration.

 

[fall-line]

I think my burners are around 4-5" from the kettles. However, there really is no 1 height that is perfect for them because there are other factors that affect performance. Things like stand design (top shelf configuration), venting, gas pressure, etc. all play a little role in determining your height. My suggestion is to design your manifold in such a way that you can swap out the vertical riser nipples to different heights to test what works best in your configuration.

+1, on this. I designed my stand with a lot of inspiration from Jon's and have had the same experience with the vertical height. I'm at 4.5" below my keggles, and 6" below my flat bottom pot. That works great for me for now. When I build my last keggle, I plan to swap out the vertical riser on that last one to bring it up a 2".

 

[skroged]

Here is a question to anybody using an electric bbq igniter.

I am using the 3 probe igniter on my rig that I am building. It is controlled via Arduino -> Shift register -> Relay -> Igniter. The problem is that when the igniter is sparking, the power surge that it creates makes the shift registers go all wonky and lose their output status. Since the valves are also connected to the shift registers, this creates quite a problem. In testing, I connected it to a battery and the problem persisted which proves that the surge is on the output, not the input of the igniter. My next attempted fix will be to somehow electrically isolate the burners from the rest of the power system, since currently they are at 0V with ground. Not going to be easy since they are screwed to metal brackets that are screwed to the frame which is screwed to my control box, which is screwed to my power supply.

Anybody have any thoughts/suggestions/input of any kind? Much appreciated.

2nd question: why does Google Chrome think that 'igniter' isn't a word?? :/

 

[jpalarchio]

Anybody have any thoughts/suggestions/input of any kind? Much appreciated.

Some of the BrewTroller guys went through this, not sure what the resolution ever was if there was one. Here's one thread I dug up, there are probably more: http://www.oscsys.com/forums/projects/brewtroller/1000777

 

[gifty74]

So I took my 10-tip burner last night and mocked up a manifold to test for flame control. I have 1/2" hose coming out of the house feeding my manifold (soon to be on my rig). That goes through and in-line regulator (Maxitrol 325-3) and then onto the burner. With the ball valve after the regulator I got slightly better control than without it, but the regulator didn't add as much control as I thought. I could not get the flame very low without it turning pretty yellow (poor burn). I'm thinking what I might do is take out some tips (maybe down to 6?) and plug the holes with a simple 1/4"-20 bolt. You guys thoughts?