Single stage fermentation?

[Wobbly]

I'm a little old school and because of that have always used two stage fermentation, on average 5 or so days in a primary fermenter and then two to three weeks in secondary fermenter before bottling or kegging. I have a pale ale on the go and would like to give single stage fermenting a go. It has been in the primary for seven days and I was thinking of transferring to a keg in the next day or two. Should I be okay doing that? Am I missing anything here? Cheers!

 

[day_trippr]

While I know of some who have actually gotten from grain to glass in a handful of days, I have my doubts about the quality of that first pour

Anyway...with few exceptions, the use of a "secondary" fermentor will only degrade the beer due to oxygen exposure, with no improvement of the beer quality over leaving it in the primary vessel. So don't do that.

Beyond that...the one important gate to packaging is assuring the final specific gravity (aka "FG") is stable. That typically means taking readings over a couple/few days. Skipping that step can lead to bottle grenades - and possible degradation of the beer, as the yeast will slowly keep chewing away and producing by-products that might not get cleaned up.

So, check the FG. If it's stable, you can decide whether to package or wait a few more days to let the yeast finish whatever they're up to

fwiw, my typical pale ale ferments for five days then gets a round of dry hops for four days followed by a two day cold-crash (under light CO2 top pressure) before kegging. At 11 days total that's my quickest cycle. For neipas I do the first round 3 days post-pitch and the second round 3 days later for four days, so with the cold crash that's a total of 12 days...

Cheers!

 

[rburrelli]

I'm a little old school and because of that have always used two stage fermentation, on average 5 or so days in a primary fermenter and then two to three weeks in secondary fermenter before bottling or kegging. I have a pale ale on the go and would like to give single stage fermenting a go. It has been in the primary for seven days and I was thinking of transferring to a keg in the next day or two. Should I be okay doing that? Am I missing anything here? Cheers!

Don’t rush it. Give it the same amount of time you would give if using a secondary. Then keg.

 

[day_trippr]

Well...certainly no reason for a pale ale to sit for 17-26 days before kegging.
Like most styles, pales should be enjoyed before they hit middle age (ie: young )

Cheers!

 

[waldoar15]

I never secondary, unless you're counting keg time.

My lagers go three weeks in primary, then in the keg for a minimum of a month. Usually longer.

 

[Wobbly]

Thanks guys, appreciate the replies. I'm definitely familiar with brewing as I've been at it since the mid 80's, i'm just really really slow to adopt new ways .
Thanks again, needed a little confidence booster too know that going to single stage fermentation was the right move.

 

[fendersrule]

The only time I check FG is when I'm transferring in my bottling bucket.

I wait 10-14 days. If I'm adding fermentables (e.g. fruit) after the main fermentation then I restart my count. Big, large beers that benefit from aging I'll up this to 21 days.

Never haven't reached FG. Don't like opening up the carboy multiple times to take FG samples only for it to tell me what I already know.

The only time I would ever care to check FG whilst in the primary is if I'm in some sort of hurry (which is never). When I've taken multiple readings in the past, I learned that 90-100% of the fermentation happens over the course of the first 3-4 days.

 

[Nokie]

I used to go to secondary because that’s what all the recipes called for, now unless I’m adding anything for it to sit on... mostly fruits. I just stay in primary for 10-14 days typically and then keg. If time doesn’t allow me to go at 14 I’ve even let it stay in primary longer.
I haven’t had any problems and I never noticed a difference not going to secondary.

 

[jrgtr42]

I very rarely secondary - only when I'm doing a long-term bulk aging, on wood, souring etc.
WHile a short fermentation works for some, I;ve never had terribly good luck with it.
I personally do about 3 weeks, occasionally even longer.
I don't touch my beer for about 2.5 weeks, and that's on;y to check gravity, planning to package at 3.
I'd say to check the gravity, then give it another few days, and check again to make sure it's stable. If it is, you should be OK to package. You should give time after fermentation is over to allow most of the yeast to settle out.

 

[fendersrule]

Yep. Even with fruits you don't need to go secondary. I've made some killer fruit beers/sours just by adding fruit to the primary.

Secondaries are really only for aging.

 

[Golddiggie]

I never do a secondary fermentation for beers. I leave my brew in fermenter for as long as it takes to finish and for the yeast to flocculate/cleanup after themselves (2-3 weeks for lower ABV brews). IF I'm going to AGE something, I sometimes move it to a different vessel. It all depends on what I'm aging on and the time frame. Plus if I want to use that fermenter I'll shift things. Again just for aging brews.

I've had beers sit on the yeast cake for more than a few weeks, post fermentation, with zero effect. Granted I ferment in vessels that I'm 100% positive are sealed. I have even made sure the head space is purged with CO2 (fermenters can be pressurized). When I age, I also do a CO2 push (going into the bottom of the receiving vessel) and also purge the headspace post transfer. Leaving at least a few PSI of pressure in the vessel for protection.

My latest brew (English IPA) is going to be almost three weeks in primary before moving to serving/carbonating kegs (this weekend). I expect zero impact from that short time in fermenter.

 

[Brooothru]

fwiw, my typical pale ale ferments for five days then gets a round of dry hops for four days followed by a two day cold-crash (under light CO2 top pressure) before kegging.

Curious how/why the pressure thingy is working out for you. Do you find that a slight amount of pressure helps with the cold crash, or are you just adding a few psi to compensate for "shrinkage"?

I usually spund to about 1 atm/15 psig at the finishing stages of fermentation, then crash to around 34F. I've usually done at least one trub dump before hand and a soft crash to settle the tired yeasts. The crash to mid-to-low 30s settles the active yeast for harvesting, and the pressure after reaching hard crash temperature is ~11.5 psig which is where my kegerator's regulator is already set. I haven't noticed that the beer clears any faster under pressure. Just wondering what the added benefit is.

 

[jschein]

Thanks guys, appreciate the replies. I'm definitely familiar with brewing as I've been at it since the mid 80's, i'm just really really slow to adopt new ways .
Thanks again, needed a little confidence booster too know that going to single stage fermentation was the right move.

I stopped secondary in the mid 80s by chance. Didn’t have time/lazy to transfer before vacation, I just left it, came back after a week and kegged. I Haven’t done secondary since. Jump right in, if it’s at FG after 2 weeks keg and let it sit for 2 weeks to carb and clear up.
So same time line without secondary, cheers and welcome back!
Old dogs can learn new tricks

 

[day_trippr]

Curious how/why the pressure thingy is working out for you. Do you find that a slight amount of pressure helps with the cold crash, or are you just adding a few psi to compensate for "shrinkage"?

"Shrinkage", definitely.

I use $8 barbecue regulators as "secondary" regs as they pretty much guarantee 11" WC/~0.4 psi pressure with none of the drift issues with trying to set and hold that low a pressure with primary reg alone (bt/dt).

And that came about (along with Star San keg purging - now fermentation gas purging - of kegs) after my first neipa brew had an unacceptably short shelf life. Now I can enjoy the same bright juicy brews even after 6 months in the keg...

Cheers!

 

[Brooothru]

Barbecue regs. Now THAT'S ingenious. I can see how that would work quite well. I've been doing "free" CO2 purges as well. I clean and Star San the kegs, then fill them with 10 grams (2gr/gal) NaMeta and hot water. After :30 mins. to an hour, purge with CO2 discharge from a fermenting batch.

The kegs stay sealed until filled under pressure transfer from the fermenter. I don't brew NEIPAs, but my IPAs, pales and lagers have been staying fresh for much longer since I started this process. I'm yet to try fermentation under pressure (except spunding at the end of fermentation), though the opinions seem to indicate you can ferment at higher temperatures without high levels of unwanted esters. That's not something that presents me any problems so far. Have you found it to be beneficial?

Brooo Brother

 

[Steveruch]

Yep. Even with fruits you don't need to go secondary. I've made some killer fruit beers/sours just by adding fruit to the primary.

Secondaries are really only for aging.

Over the summer I brewed a wild blackberry wheat beer and added the blackberries in the primary; it came out good.

 

[day_trippr]

[...]I'm yet to try fermentation under pressure (except spunding at the end of fermentation), though the opinions seem to indicate you can ferment at higher temperatures without high levels of unwanted esters. That's not something that presents me any problems so far. Have you found it to be beneficial?

Brooo Brother

Aside from the back pressure from submerging the very end of my keg purging system under a couple of inches of water (so, maybe .1 psi) I have never fermented anything under real pressure.

For the few lagers I do each year I stick to the "classical" fermentation methods. As I have multiple ferm fridges, temp control is never an issue no matter what strain of yeast I might be running...

Cheers!

 

[fendersrule]

Over the summer I brewed a wild blackberry wheat beer and added the blackberries in the primary; it came out good.

I believe it. I fruited about 6 times so far in the primary and every time it was perfect.

Fruit needs the primary right after the main fermentation completes.

 

[kmarkstevens]

You hereby have my permission to skip secondary.

I've rarely done the secondary nor a bottling bucket. Also started in the 80's, and when I lived in Japan my equipment was pitiful with no option to go buy more.

My palate cannot discern yeast autolysis or off flavors from beer sitting on the primary for weeks if not longer.

Now I typically keg with a spunding valve and a floating dip tube. Worst case is either overcarbonated for about a gallon, or under carbonated until the CO2 kicks in. Actually, you don't even "need" a spunding valve. Just get FG close, prime and cross your fingers.

When I bottle, I make a sugar water mix, and then use a syringe to fill each bottle with solution. You can also use carbonation tablets. A bottling bucket risks both oxygen off flavors and stratification of the priming sugar.

 

[fendersrule]

I’m curious to hear more about open mixing with priming sugar vs some other method. Has it been AB tested?

 

[yaakov]

While I know of some who have actually gotten from grain to glass in a handful of days, I have my doubts about the quality of that first pour

Anyway...with few exceptions, the use of a "secondary" fermentor will only degrade the beer due to oxygen exposure, with no improvement of the beer quality over leaving it in the primary vessel. So don't do that.

Beyond that...the one important gate to packaging is assuring the final specific gravity (aka "FG") is stable. That typically means taking readings over a couple/few days. Skipping that step can lead to bottle grenades - and possible degradation of the beer, as the yeast will slowly keep chewing away and producing by-products that might not get cleaned up.

So, check the FG. If it's stable, you can decide whether to package or wait a few more days to let the yeast finish whatever they're up to

fwiw, my typical pale ale ferments for five days then gets a round of dry hops for four days followed by a two day cold-crash (under light CO2 top pressure) before kegging. At 11 days total that's my quickest cycle. For neipas I do the first round 3 days post-pitch and the second round 3 days later for four days, so with the cold crash that's a total of 12 days...

Cheers!

I leave it in my primary for at least four weeks, without opening the lid. By then it is done and the yeast has finished their job. I cannot see any purpose in transferring to another fermenter. Transferring just exposes the beer to oxygen. My beer just does fine by leaving it the hell alone until bottling time. I also do my best to keep it at a constant temperature So that the yeast can adapt and be happy without getting jerked around.

 

[gunhaus]

SO, much of the info I see in this thread leads me to conclude the following: If I ferment an ale 7 days, transfer it to a keg, and leave it in my chill chest 4 weeks, then serve, it will be crappy beer. If I leave my beer to sit in my fermentor for 4 weeks, then keg and drink one week later it will be good beer? HUH! Glad I learned to make beer before all these complicated rules!!!!! I might never have gotten hooked on the hobby if it had been this hard back then.

 

[BigDave1303]

Barbecue regs. Now THAT'S ingenious. I can see how that would work quite well. I've been doing "free" CO2 purges as well. I clean and Star San the kegs, then fill them with 10 grams (2gr/gal) NaMeta and hot water. After :30 mins. to an hour, purge with CO2 discharge from a fermenting batch.

The kegs stay sealed until filled under pressure transfer from the fermenter. I don't brew NEIPAs, but my IPAs, pales and lagers have been staying fresh for much longer since I started this process. I'm yet to try fermentation under pressure (except spunding at the end of fermentation), though the opinions seem to indicate you can ferment at higher temperatures without high levels of unwanted esters. That's not something that presents me any problems so far. Have you found it to be beneficial?

Brooo Brother

Hi.I've often thought about collecting co2 from a ferment but not done it yet. I have recently replaced my airlock with a blow-off pipe which runs into a 6 pint milk bottle & bubbles through a couple of inches of starsan mix. (See photos)

In theory:
After reading your post above you have given me the idea of placing the plastic milk bottle set up into the bottom of a spare 25 litre plastic fermenting bucket (lid on but able to vent through small hole on top) which hopefully should fill with the co2 & push the air out above it. This would have the advantage of sucking back co2 instead of air when I cold crash & bottle.
Not sure if I could work out a way of purging all of the bottles though. I'm not sure if o2 exposure is very high within the bottles. I suspect most of the exposure to the air is the larger surface area on top of the beer within the fermentor when air is sucked back in as the liquid level drops. So doing this co2 reclaiming should eliminate or at least reduce it.

Anyones thoughts?

 

[yaakov]

SO, much of the info I see in this thread leads me to conclude the following: If I ferment an ale 7 days, transfer it to a keg, and leave it in my chill chest 4 weeks, then serve, it will be crappy beer. If I leave my beer to sit in my fermentor for 4 weeks, then keg and drink one week later it will be good beer? HUH! Glad I learned to make beer before all these complicated rules!!!!! I might never have gotten hooked on the hobby if it had been this hard back then.

I agree! I think most of the problems I see on this forum come from playing with the beer instead of leaving it alone and letting it do its thing. My comments in my post above are just how I roll. After 4 weeks, I bottle it and leave it for at least a couple of weeks, if not months, consequently, I have multiple cases of beer stacked in my basement. I used to be into a kegerator, but I really put on the weight. For me, personally, bottles work better because I am not yanking on the tap handle all of the time. Everybody is different. 4 weeks in the primary fermenter works for me, just fine. I give away more beer than I drink. I love making it from all grains...it is a great hobby.

 

[McKnuckle]

It's the conditioning that's key. @gunhaus keys in on that with his comparison of two timelines, identical in duration but opposite in terms of where the beer is kept, and the storage temperature at each stage.

I opt for a shorter time in the primary fermenter, then a longer time in the serving keg kept cold. This is similar to how a pro brewery would do things, so it makes sense to me. Many people do the converse, preferring relatively warm conditioning for longer, then getting it ready to serve as quickly as possible. I'm sure that method works just fine, too.

 

[yaakov]

It's the conditioning that's key. @gunhaus keys in on that with his comparison of two timelines, identical in duration but opposite in terms of where the beer is kept, and the storage temperature at each stage.

I opt for a shorter time in the primary fermenter, then a longer time in the serving keg kept cold. This is similar to how a pro brewery would do things, so it makes sense to me. Many people do the converse, preferring relatively warm conditioning for longer, then getting it ready to serve as quickly as possible. I'm sure that method works just fine, too.

That sounds great, also. As a matter of fact it sounds really good. I would try it if I had the equipment.

 

[Wobbly]

A wealth of info within all of these posts. Interesting reading and much appreciated. Looks like i'm finally done with secondary fermentation, better late than never

 

[Brooothru]

It's the conditioning that's key. @gunhaus keys in on that with his comparison of two timelines, identical in duration but opposite in terms of where the beer is kept, and the storage temperature at each stage.

I opt for a shorter time in the primary fermenter, then a longer time in the serving keg kept cold. This is similar to how a pro brewery would do things, so it makes sense to me. Many people do the converse, preferring relatively warm conditioning for longer, then getting it ready to serve as quickly as possible. I'm sure that method works just fine, too.

My take on it is a compromise between the two schools of thought. I leave it in the fermenter until the gravity is stable for three days in a row. Then keg it for conditioning, 2-3 weeks for ales and 2-3 months for lagers.

Sometimes FG is reached in a week to 10 days (ales), meaning after 4 to 7 days of fermentation I then saw no further decrease in gravity (so, week to 10 days). Sometimes it takes longer. Whatever it takes. A bit longer timeline for lagers, obviously, but usually not more than 15-20 days for them start to finish. Totally agree on the conditioning phase however. Two to 3 weeks at serving temperature makes significantly better beer, at least for the ales I brew.

Brooo Brother