Simple Yeast Banking with Sodium Chloride

[RPh_Guy]

its convenient to decide on your own when to be accommodating and when to be strict.

You posted on this thread just to be rude to me over a previous disagreement. Am I reading this right?

 

[NeverDie]

Guys, how about you PM each other rather than derail a perfectly good thread?

 

[SanPancho]

Nice.

 

[SanPancho]

Self flattery is salty? Or sour? Can’t remember.

ANYWAYS....

Chiming in as I thought i had a bit of info for the OP about an additional chem to add to the solution per a brewer I knew a while back. I thought we had it in notes but I can’t locate at either of our locations. I want to say it was just regular zinc hepta but don’t take that to the bank. Unfortunately I lost my phone and with it his info. I’ll shoot him an email but no guarantee there.

Long story short dude helped open a brewery in the South Pacific. Learned all sorts of ways to store yeast that didn’t rely on cold/freezing.

Sorry for the tease, I’ll post back if I hear or can find the notes.

Of course, somebody can always google it and then repost the info

 

[NeverDie]

I got the info from this excellent site
https://eurekabrewing.wordpress.com/2012/09/05/yeast-banking-3-isotonic-sodium-chloride/

It's worth noting that 0.9% sodium chloride solution is the same concentration as regular saline solution, such as what you might buy over-the-couter at a pharmacy.

So, perhaps the easiest way to put this together would be to use already sterilized storage containers and already sterilized saline solution.

 

[beervoid]

It's worth noting that 0.9% sodium chloride solution is the same concentration as regular saline solution, such as what you might buy over-the-couter at a pharmacy.

So, perhaps the easiest way to put this together would be to use already sterilized storage containers and already sterilized saline solution.

I would go this route if glass vials where available here. Couldnt find em.

 

[SanPancho]

so haven't been able to find the contact info, but I did run into another face from the past who remembers the general outline of the storage media old Buzz used to use. he's pretty sure its zinc hepta also. but he also doesn't remember anything more than that in terms of dosage, etc. he thinks the sample was virgin yeast that had been taken straight from the prop, but I recall it being harvested (hence the need for the zinc). so I'd say maybe not such detailed/useful information. but ol Buzz used to always have his nose in a book so you can probably find It somewhere online if you're so inclined. sorry couldn't get you more detail.

 

[NeverDie]

I would go this route if glass vials where available here. Couldnt find em.

I take it you want glass to avoid oxygen exposure? Yeah, I'm not finding those either.

If it has to be glass, then I guess that means using glass canning jars and autoclaving them with a pressure canner. In which case, I may as well make my own saline solution too. OK, then, that's the plan.

 

[beervoid]

so haven't been able to find the contact info, but I did run into another face from the past who remembers the general outline of the storage media old Buzz used to use. he's pretty sure its zinc hepta also. but he also doesn't remember anything more than that in terms of dosage, etc. he thinks the sample was virgin yeast that had been taken straight from the prop, but I recall it being harvested (hence the need for the zinc). so I'd say maybe not such detailed/useful information. but ol Buzz used to always have his nose in a book so you can probably find It somewhere online if you're so inclined. sorry couldn't get you more detail.

Why not add some yeast nutrient?

 

[beervoid]

I take it you want glass to avoid oxygen exposure? Yeah, I'm not finding those either.

If it has to be glass, then I guess that means using glass canning jars and autoclaving them with a pressure canner. In which case, I may as well make my own saline solution too. OK, then, that's the plan.

Plastic vials that cant be re-closed. I read hospitals should carry the glass vials.

 

[NeverDie]

Plastic vials that cant be re-closed.

Not sure what you mean. Plastic vials can be opened and then re-closed if they have a screw-on cap.

 

[RPh_Guy]

Plastic vials that cant be re-closed. I read hospitals should carry the glass vials.

Nah, Typically plastic.

Plastic vials can be opened and then re-closed if they have a screw-on cap.

These:

I guess I should explain...
The green plastic part on top flips off and theres a rubber stopper crimped on with metal. You need some sort of needle or cannula to access the contents.
They're designed for single use, but it works for this purpose (I would use it for a single culture, withdrawing 1mL each time it's needed).

 

[NeverDie]

I'm confused as to what you all have in mind. I was thinking of two things:

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B075ZFHYSW/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20

together with:

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B01M04HGPJ/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20

 

[RPh_Guy]

If you want to use your own vials, it's pretty simple making your own Normal Saline.

50mL is too large for banking in my opinion. You probably want 5-10mL, 25mL at most.

 

[SanPancho]

As long as there wouldnt be anything that would kick off a ferment in storage i dont see why you couldn’t use a nutrient blend. Zinc is common at brew supply houses, and the only thing yeast cant get from wort so its important to supplement. Buzz used what was sort of the least common denominator in terms of supplies as that guy brewed in the South Pacific, SE asia, hong kong, and a bunch of other far off places. Crazy hippie nomad. He couldn’t just send off for more supplies or fresh yeast every week so he developed his system to use commonly available stuff he could get his hands on anywhere. Pure water, salt, and zinc. Zinc may not be common everywhere but a little goes a long way so he probably just took some with him wherever he ventured off to.

 

[beervoid]

Nah, Typically plastic.

These:

View attachment 614691

I guess I should explain...
The green plastic part on top flips off and theres a rubber stopper crimped on with metal. You need some sort of needle or cannula to access the contents.
They're designed for single use, but it works for this purpose (I would use it for a single culture, withdrawing 1mL each time it's needed).

The ones we got here are those that you need to break the top off

 

[RPh_Guy]

Yeah, you wouldn't want to use ampules, obviously.

 

[beervoid]

As long as there wouldnt be anything that would kick off a ferment in storage i dont see why you couldn’t use a nutrient blend. Zinc is common at brew supply houses, and the only thing yeast cant get from wort so its important to supplement. Buzz used what was sort of the least common denominator in terms of supplies as that guy brewed in the South Pacific, SE asia, hong kong, and a bunch of other far off places. Crazy hippie nomad. He couldn’t just send off for more supplies or fresh yeast every week so he developed his system to use commonly available stuff he could get his hands on anywhere. Pure water, salt, and zinc. Zinc may not be common everywhere but a little goes a long way so he probably just took some with him wherever he ventured off to.

Might be worth it if it delivers extra insurance.
2 years seems long enough for storage for me though.

 

[NeverDie]

If you want to use your own vials, it's pretty simple making your own Normal Saline.

50mL is too large for banking in my opinion. You probably want 5-10mL, 25mL at most.

I've been using the 15ml version (so far, without the saline) for a while now, and it's not easy getting the yeast out of the pointy end of it. Not sure that it's a deal breaker per se, but I have some of these 50ml on order to see if they are any easier. Most of the 50ml would be saline anyway.

 

[SanPancho]

If you’re making a starter and then pulling off that to store samples id put the zinc in the starter, just to be safe. Let them get good and healthy so they’re ready to sleep.

And not sure if it was mentioned yet but id think youd want to avoid oxygen too. Might be overkill, but a boil of the saline and quick cool will help there.

 

[beervoid]

Since I wont be finding sterile glass bottles with sodium choride solution I was wondering if
cooking one of those Duran laboratory bottles sterilize them effectively?
or does one really need a autoclave/pressure cooker?

 

[Jsmith2154]

I'm confused as to what you all have in mind. I was thinking of two things:

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B075ZFHYSW/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20

together with:

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B01M04HGPJ/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20

If you want to use your own vials, it's pretty simple making your own Normal Saline.

50mL is too large for banking in my opinion. You probably want 5-10mL, 25mL at most.

The ones we got here are those that you need to break the top off

This may be my first post.
I love this idea! Am I reading this right? Is it as easy as ordering the sterile products from amazon linked above and pouring in my starter slurry and covering it with the sterile saline? I switched to 1056 and have to order it shipped so I am just looking for a relatively economical means of streching each packet ordered. Not worried about storing for years at a time.
Please keep it coming in this thread I am following.

 

[NeverDie]

This may be my first post.
I love this idea! Am I reading this right? Is it as easy as ordering the sterile products from amazon linked above and pouring in my starter slurry and covering it with the sterile saline? I switched to 1056 and have to order it shipped so I am just looking for a relatively economical means of streching each packet ordered. Not worried about storing for years at a time.
Please keep it coming in this thread I am following.

Well, almost. There's a 1:5 slurry:saline ratio-by-volume that we theorize needs to be maintained.

I've also seen it recommended that you mix the saline with the slurry for 5 minutes on a stir plate before sealing it up. Is it strictly necessary? I don't know, but it makes sense, especially if it's a thick slurry. Maybe shaking it thoroughly would be good enough?

I like your enthusiasm!

 

[NeverDie]

Since I wont be finding sterile glass bottles with sodium choride solution I was wondering if
cooking one of those Duran laboratory bottles sterilize them effectively?
or does one really need a autoclave/pressure cooker?

You probably want either an autoclave or a pressure canner. Pressure canners have a bit more killing power than ordinary pressure cookers.

I recently acquired pressure canner, so I intend to make my own saline solution and then sterilize it that way. Doing it that way, the cost to me will be about a penny.

 

[Jsmith2154]

Well, almost. There's a 1:5 slurry:saline ratio-by-volume that we theorize needs to be maintained.

I've also seen it recommended that you mix the saline with the slurry for 5 minutes on a stir plate before sealing it up. Is it strictly necessary? I don't know, but it makes sense, especially if it's a thick slurry. Maybe shaking it thoroughly would be good enough?

I like your enthusiasm!

Awesome!
Yes I was picking up on the 1:5 ratio. I’m a little fuzzy on this though. Does it have to be exact? And would it be safe to err with a weaker ratio? ie 1:6-7ish? Rather than stronger? ie 1:3

Im imagining the following procedure. Boil sanitize my 250ml flask. Then pour 50ml of my decanted over built starter into it. Add 200ml of the saline. Thourough (sp?) mix or stir plate it for a bit. Then fill the sterile amazon tubes to whatever volume.

Look adequate? I do not have pressure canner, and wanting to minimize equipment purchases right now. Just trying to maximize packets and be somewhat sanitary in my handling at the same time.

 

[NeverDie]

I think no matter what you do there's still always going to be some chance of infection. Cutting corners increases the already non-zero risk. When you consider that your slurry probably isn't prestine, I'm not sure that it's really much of an increase in risk, relatively speaking.

That said, I plan to use a pressure canner whenever I'm able to for this kind of stuff. Brewing related activities is the only reason I purchased it in the first place. They aren't terribly expensive either.

Anyhow, I'd encourage you to read the source material. When I'm typing these posts, I'm relying on my memory of what I've read, and so having more than just my eyes read it would be a good idea.

 

[RPh_Guy]

I've been using the 15ml version (so far, without the saline) for a while now, and it's not easy getting the yeast out of the pointy end of it. Not sure that it's a deal breaker per se, but I have some of these 50ml on order to see if they are any easier. Most of the 50ml would be saline anyway.

The idea is to shake it up to resuspend the yeast and then pull out 1mL from the top.

id think youd want to avoid oxygen too. Might be overkill, but a boil of the saline and quick cool will help there.

Even if you could avoid oxygen (headspace makes this difficult, plus the yeast starter is already aerated), why would you?

does one really need a autoclave/pressure cooker?

Need? No, but the pressure allows the temperature to increase high enough to kill spores, which boiling at normal pressure does not. However, it's unlikely that spores will be a problem in my opinion.

mix the saline with the slurry for 5 minutes on a stir plate before sealing it up. Is it strictly necessary?

Absolutely not.
Once they're combined in your storage container, just give it a quick shake.

Stick with the info on this post and you'll be fine:
https://eurekabrewing.wordpress.com/2012/09/05/yeast-banking-3-isotonic-sodium-chloride/

Yes I was picking up on the 1:5 ratio. I’m a little fuzzy on this though. Does it have to be exact? And would it be safe to err with a weaker ratio? ie 1:6-7ish? Rather than stronger? ie 1:3

Correct.

Cheers

 

[RPh_Guy]

I can't find any info about zinc being used to aid yeast storage.

Usage rates to help fermentation range 0.1-0.25ppm, so if you're making 1 liter of NS, thats 0.00010 to 0.00025 grams of elemental zinc.
Zinc levels greater than 0.6ppm can inhibit yeast growth.

I certainly wouldn't add zinc using this banking/storage method.

 

[NeverDie]

I have these arriving tomorrow: https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B06XDJY163/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20
at which point I'll move all my existing refrigerated yeast slurries over to being refrigerated yeast-saline slurries using my home made saline solution. I'm betting that will extend their lifespan long enough for me to use them up at a normal pace before they become unusable.

 

[Jsmith2154]

I think no matter what you do there's still always going to be some chance of infection. Cutting corners increases the already non-zero risk. When you consider that your slurry probably isn't prestine, I'm not sure that it's really much of an increase in risk, relatively speaking.

That said, I plan to use a pressure canner whenever I'm able to for this kind of stuff. Brewing related activities is the only reason I purchased it in the first place. They aren't terribly expensive either.

Anyhow, I'd encourage you to read the source material. When I'm typing these posts, I'm relying on my memory of what I've read, and so having more than just my eyes read it would be a good idea.

Yes I know I am very far from being serile in my kitchen/ garage. but I do try to practice sanitary techniques. I am not really looking to “cut corners” more just trying to be economical with my hobby and any time I can reduce the equipment needed and stretch my ingedients and still produce relatively “clean” beer its more of a win in my book.

Need? No, but the pressure allows the temperature to increase high enough to kill spores, which boiling at normal pressure does not. However, it's unlikely that spores will be a problem in my opinion.

From my limited reading I Was subscribing to this thinking.

Absolutely not.
Once they're combined in your storage container, just give it a quick shake.

Stick with the info on this post and you'll be fine:
https://eurekabrewing.wordpress.com/2012/09/05/yeast-banking-3-isotonic-sodium-chloride/

Correct.

Cheers

Great stuff thanks for the reply. I skimmed that blog earlier today when I first started reading this thread. I will need to read it more in depth soon.