Simple question about flaked oats

[yourfriendmikem]

Im a BIAB brewer with about 15 brews under my belt and I'm not 100% certain wether or not flaked oats contributes to final gravity/abv... I know it increases OG simply because it's in there, but I'm not sure how to account for it if it doesn't impact FG. Do I disregard the effect of the oats on OG and record the number before I add them to my recipe in beersmith? What about other flaked, unmalted grains?

Thanks!

 

[BigEd]

As long as the flaked grains are part of a bill that includes a good portion of malted base grain they will absolutely contribute to the OG. Enzymes from the base grains will convert starches in the flaked grains during the mash. Entering your grain bill in the brewing program, Beersmith or other, should give you a good idea of what to expect in both the OG and FG.

 

[inhousebrew]

I already had Beersmith opened to a chocolate stout I'm making so for your purpose I increased and decreased the flaked oats and the OG and FG went up or down depending on what I added or subtracted. Play with the amounts and check it out, the programs got your back

 

[DaWhip]

+1 to what was said above. The easiest example in brewers friend is with straight lactose since it is not fermentable. Add lactose to a recipe and you will see the OG & FG reflect accordingly. The software does a really good job "knowing" what will ferment and what will not.

 

[yourfriendmikem]

+1 to what was said above. The easiest example in brewers friend is with straight lactose since it is not fermentable. Add lactose to a recipe and you will see the OG & FG reflect accordingly. The software does a really good job "knowing" what will ferment and what will not.

Lactose does not impact OG in beersmith. Probably because it's not fermentable. It sounds like the OG in brewers friend is impacted by lactose. If that's the case would you consider the OG and FG calculated prior to adding the lactose as the true reading?

 

[yourfriendmikem]

As long as the flaked grains are part of a bill that includes a good portion of malted base grain they will absolutely contribute to the OG. Enzymes from the base grains will convert starches in the flaked grains during the mash. Entering your grain bill in the brewing program, Beersmith or other, should give you a good idea of what to expect in both the OG and FG.

Would beer smith know the effects of specific grains on each other automatically?

 

[yourfriendmikem]

I think my main question is wether or not certain grains and adjuncts effect OG even though they do not contribute fermentables. If that is the case how do you account for that when you're looking at FG my guess is that the software is doing this automatically. I've been brewing fine beers for a while now but the longer I'm doing it the more obsessive I become over the minutia.

 

[McKnuckle]

Lactose does not impact OG in beersmith. Probably because it's not fermentable. It sounds like the OG in brewers friend is impacted by lactose.

If that's true about BS, then BF is doing it right. Gravity is gravity, whether the stuff contributing to it can ferment or not.

The key to understanding what's going on is simply to know how many gravity points the lactose is adding. The software should tell you that. For example, you might have an OG of 1.050 prior to adding lactose. You add lactose, and it goes up to 1.060. You record your OG as 1.060.

After fermentation, you measure FG and find that it's only 1.020, which is 67% apparent attenuation down from 1.060 - and you ask yikes, is the yeast done? But guess what, subtract the 10 points that the lactose added (from both ends) and you'll find that actual attenuation was really 80% (from 1.050 down to 1.010).

Not showing the impact of the lactose on gravity is bad logic in my opinion.

 

[yourfriendmikem]

If that's true about BS, then BF is doing it right. Gravity is gravity, whether the stuff contributing to it can ferment or not.



The key to understanding what's going on is simply to know how many gravity points the lactose is adding. The software should tell you that. For example, you might have an OG of 1.050 prior to adding lactose. You add lactose, and it goes up to 1.060. You record your OG as 1.060.



After fermentation, you measure FG and find that it's only 1.020, which is 67% apparent attenuation down from 1.060 - and you ask yikes, is the yeast done? But guess what, subtract the 10 points that the lactose added (from both ends) and you'll find that actual attenuation was really 80% (from 1.050 down to 1.010).



Not showing the impact of the lactose on gravity is bad logic in my opinion.

So in this case it would make sense to record OG prior to adding lactose and then again after. One for the purpose of knowing what the attenuation will be and one for knowing the true gravity.

Back to oats though. It seems like oats, in a typical brew with enough base Malt does contribute fermentable sugar and should be treated as any other base malt. The assumption is that the software is aware of the specific amounts of required malts to pull specific amounts of fermentable sugar from the oats. Does that sound right?

 

[yourfriendmikem]

I tested it in BS by removing the 2 row and increasing the amount of flaked oats x5. OG and FG estimate shot up, which means that BS assumes all alvailable fermentables in the oats are used regardless of the other malts.

 

[Yooper]

I think my main question is wether or not certain grains and adjuncts effect OG even though they do not contribute fermentables. If that is the case how do you account for that when you're looking at FG my guess is that the software is doing this automatically. I've been brewing fine beers for a while now but the longer I'm doing it the more obsessive I become over the minutia.

I tested it in BS by removing the 2 row and increasing the amount of flaked oats x5. OG and FG estimate shot up, which means that BS assumes all alvailable fermentables in the oats are used regardless of the other malts.

I'm not sure what you're saying here- all additives impact the OG. Almost all (lactose is the exception here) are fermentable. Honey and simple sugars will ferment more fully, and should lower the FG more than something like malt will, but it's not a huge difference.

Aside from non-fermentable lactose, there shouldn't be any weird changes in OG/FG using grain or adjuncts.

Oats are fermentable. They need to be converted in a mash, but of course the same is true of malted grain.

 

[yourfriendmikem]

I'm not sure what you're saying here- all additives impact the OG. Almost all (lactose is the exception here) are fermentable. Honey and simple sugars will ferment more fully, and should lower the FG more than something like malt will, but it's not a huge difference.



Aside from non-fermentable lactose, there shouldn't be any weird changes in OG/FG using grain or adjuncts.



Oats are fermentable. They need to be converted in a mash, but of course the same is true of malted grain.

I don't know... I'm all confused haha. I think it stems from over thinking and confusion/lack of knowledge about some of the finer details about malts, diastatic power, etc.

 

[Yooper]

I don't know... I'm all confused haha. I think it stems from over thinking and confusion/lack of knowledge about some of the finer details about malts, diastatic power, etc.

Ah, gotcha!

I guess the "easy" way to think of it is that all grains that go into a mash need to be converted, no matter what they are. If you are using mostly malted grains, there is almost always more then enough diastatic power to convert so you don't really have to think about it. If you don't have conversion, you just get a ton of starch but generally conversion in a proper mash happens in as little as 20 minutes so it's not something to worry about.

The only time this could be an issue is if you are using a ton of rice or unmalted oats or corn (40% or more) or other weird unmalted grains and then you'd have to consider the DP of the base malt to convert that. For most usual brews or recipes, it wouldn't be an issue at all. So if you're using something like flaked oats, just using an equal amount of base malt would "cover" you for conversion. My tip there is for extract brewers/partial mash brewers- If you're using flaked grains, use an equal amount of base malt in your steep/mash, and then you'd be all set.

 

[yourfriendmikem]

Ah, gotcha!



I guess the "easy" way to think of it is that all grains that go into a mash need to be converted, no matter what they are. If you are using mostly malted grains, there is almost always more then enough diastatic power to convert so you don't really have to think about it. If you don't have conversion, you just get a ton of starch but generally conversion in a proper mash happens in as little as 20 minutes so it's not something to worry about.



The only time this could be an issue is if you are using a ton of rice or unmalted oats or corn (40% or more) or other weird unmalted grains and then you'd have to consider the DP of the base malt to convert that. For most usual brews or recipes, it wouldn't be an issue at all. So if you're using something like flaked oats, just using an equal amount of base malt would "cover" you for conversion. My tip there is for extract brewers/partial mash brewers- If you're using flaked grains, use an equal amount of base malt in your steep/mash, and then you'd be all set.

That is actually very helpful. As a rule of thumb, if I'm using adjuncts I must have at least 50-60% base malt if I want to avoid extra starch and the problems that come with it. Thanks!

 

[chickypad]

Lactose does not impact OG in beersmith. Probably because it's not fermentable. It sounds like the OG in brewers friend is impacted by lactose. If that's the case would you consider the OG and FG calculated prior to adding the lactose as the true reading?

Just to clarify for anyone else reading this is not true. Beersmith adds lactose to the OG, as it should. Prior to the most recent upgrade though it did not properly treat it as totally unfermentable, so it was not fully counted in the FG. Now there is a check box that you can select on any grain to indicate it is non-fermentable. If you do that it will properly add all the gravity points from lactose to both the OG and FG.

 

[yourfriendmikem]

Ah, gotcha!



I guess the "easy" way to think of it is that all grains that go into a mash need to be converted, no matter what they are. If you are using mostly malted grains, there is almost always more then enough diastatic power to convert so you don't really have to think about it. If you don't have conversion, you just get a ton of starch but generally conversion in a proper mash happens in as little as 20 minutes so it's not something to worry about.



The only time this could be an issue is if you are using a ton of rice or unmalted oats or corn (40% or more) or other weird unmalted grains and then you'd have to consider the DP of the base malt to convert that. For most usual brews or recipes, it wouldn't be an issue at all. So if you're using something like flaked oats, just using an equal amount of base malt would "cover" you for conversion. My tip there is for extract brewers/partial mash brewers- If you're using flaked grains, use an equal amount of base malt in your steep/mash, and then you'd be all set.

That is actually very helpful. As a rule of thumb, if I'm using adjuncts I must have at least 50-60% base malt if I want to avoid extra starch and the problems that come with it. Thanks!

 

[Yooper]

That is actually very helpful. As a rule of thumb, if I'm using adjuncts I must have at least 50-60% base malt if I want to avoid extra starch and the problems that come with it. Thanks!

Unless you calculate (or guesstimate) the DP that's a good guess. If in doubt, you could add some 6-row to the mash instead of 2-row, since it has a higher DP but most base malts have plenty anyway. There are some European base malts where they may be a bit low, like some dark Munich, that may not have enough DP to convert excess adjuncts but for the most part you would be fine with that rule of thumb.