Simple APA Water?

[jtupper]

Brewing up a simple APA with the following grain bill:

10# 2-row Base
1# C40

Hops as follows:

1oz Cascade 60min
.75oz Cascade 30min
.25oz Cascade 5min

this is my result from EZ Calc:

Starting Water (ppm):
Ca: 60
Mg: 3
Na: 11.5
Cl: 16.1
SO4: 21.8
HCO3: 140

Mash / Sparge Vol (gal): 3.66 / 6.69
RO or distilled %: 0% / 0%

Total Grain (lb): 11.0

Adjustments (grams) Mash / Boil Kettle:
CaSO4: 0 / 0
CaCl2: 1.5 / 2.741803279
MgSO4: 2.3 / 4.204098361
NaHCO3: 0 / 0
CaCO3: 0 / 0
Lactic Acid (ml): 0
Sauermalz (oz): 2.5

Mash Water / Total water (ppm):
Ca: 90 / 90
Mg: 18 / 18
Na: 12 / 12
Cl: 68 / 68
SO4: 87 / 87
Cl to SO4 Ratio: 0.79 / 0.79

Alkalinity (CaCO3): -27
RA: -102
Estimated pH: 5.54
(room temp)


Does everything look ok? Any help is appreciated as always!

 

[Yooper]

I'd target a mash pH of 5.3 or so. So you may need more sauermalz.

I'd also not increase the magnesium, and instead use gypsum (calcium sulfate) which would increase your calcium and your sulfate.

I like a sulfate level of 135-150 ppm or so in my APAs, and I see no need to increase the chloride, so you can leave that out (although it won't hurt).

In short, I'd use gypsum and leave out the calcium chloride and epsom salt, and add more sauermalz (or lactic acid).

A calcium level of 50-100 ppm is desirable for yeast flocculation, so that will help with clarity in the final beer. Sulfate enhances the perception of dryness, which I like in IPAs and APAs.

EZ calculator has never been close to accurate for me- I'd recheck the projected mash pH with Brewer's Friend or Bru'nwater (both free).

 

[jtupper]

YOu know after a 3yr hiatus in brewing and deciding to come back to make some easy drinking beer, I somehow thought you would be the first to comment on one of my water questions Yoop. Its good to hear from you again!

On to the post....I had always heard gypsum doesn't dissolve well into brewing water and will fall out of suspension rather easy. Is this not the case anymore? I had always added the salts for this reason and never relied on the gypsum, or chalks for that matter.

And if i remember correctly you are not a believer in the chloride/sulfate ratio, but more just the amount of sulfates? Can you elaborate y? not doubting you, but would like to know the reason behind for my own knowledge.

Thanks again yoop, It really is good to hear from you again. Makes it seem like I never stopped brewing at all!

 

[Yooper]

YOu know after a 3yr hiatus in brewing and deciding to come back to make some easy drinking beer, I somehow thought you would be the first to comment on one of my water questions Yoop. Its good to hear from you again!

On to the post....I had always heard gypsum doesn't dissolve well into brewing water and will fall out of suspension rather easy. Is this not the case anymore? I had always added the salts for this reason and never relied on the gypsum, or chalks for that matter.

And if i remember correctly you are not a believer in the chloride/sulfate ratio, but more just the amount of sulfates? Can you elaborate y? not doubting you, but would like to know the reason behind for my own knowledge.

Thanks again yoop, It really is good to hear from you again. Makes it seem like I never stopped brewing at all!

It's nice to "talk" to you again too!

Gypsum dissolves ok in the mash, but you're correct about chalk. It takes extraneous measures to dissolve chalk, so it's not generally commonly used.

As far as the 'ratio' business, I could elaborate but a real expert could definitely provide better info and reasoning than I ever could: https://www.homebrewtalk.com/showthread.php?t=526109

My laypersons explanation is much more simple- say you're making spaghetti sauce and you're using 1 tablespoon garlic powder and 1 teaspoon salt. That's a 3:1 ratio. but what if you accidentally add 2 teaspoons of salt, and now it's a bit too salty? Well, adding another tablespoon of garlic powder won't "erase" the extra salt- it's just going to be too garlicky and salty now. (Not that there is every such a thing as too much garlic.................)

In a beer, if you have 20 ppm of chloride and 60 ppm of sulfate, that's 1:3. But you won't really notice either, and the beer will not be minerally at all. But if you have 200 ppm of chloride and 600 ppm of sulfate, that's also 1:3 but the beer may well be undrinkable. So instead of the 'ratio', think of the actual amounts and what those flavor ions do to the flavor of the beer.

To go back to the spaghetti analogy, those brewing salts are the 'seasonings' for your brew, just as my garlic and table salt are the 'seasonings' for my sauce. Oftentimes, less is more in both brewing salts and in cooking salts, but if you know you like more (garlic) sulfate, then use it to your taste!

 

[jtupper]

Makes sense. So how do we decide how much chlorides and sufate we need for each particular style? Is it based on the color? hop profile? maltiness? etc.

I understand the ph changes and how to adjust the water, but I think I get lost in deciding what the proper ph should be (5.3 vs 5.6) and how much of the minerals should be present depending on the beer being made. I know there are pages and pages of books written on the topic, but are there a simple set of guidelines or a chart that shows baselines for the styles? I know a little about RA from palmer. Is that a go to guide or are there other options?

 

[Yooper]

Makes sense. So how do we decide how much chlorides and sufate we need for each particular style? Is it based on the color? hop profile? maltiness? etc.

I understand the ph changes and how to adjust the water, but I think I get lost in deciding what the proper ph should be (5.3 vs 5.6) and how much of the minerals should be present depending on the beer being made. I know there are pages and pages of books written on the topic, but are there a simple set of guidelines or a chart that shows baselines for the styles? I know a little about RA from palmer. Is that a go to guide or are there other options?

You're going down the rabbit hole now..........................

In short, ignore RA as it's pretty meaningless for our purposes.

I like roasty and non-hoppy beers best at a mash pH of 5.5 or so, while hoppy 'bright' tasting beers I like at a mash pH of 5.3 or so.

As far as baselines for styles, there are some rough guidelines in some of the water profiles out there. A pale ale profile, for example, will have 300 ppm of sulfate as a target. That's too much for my taste in many of my recipes (not all), so it's a matter of trial and error to determine YOUR taste I think.

You can start with a "less is more" approach if you're unsure, but can't really go wrong with the less. Again, it's like seasoning. Maybe too little may be a little bland, but too much may be too minerally. One thing you could do is make it with a bit less than the "pale ale profile", or a lot less, and then dose a bit of gypsum in the beer in the glass when it's finished and see what you think. Just like the old guys in the bar used to add table salt to their glass of beer, you can do that too (that adds chloride).

For some basic info on what substance does what, you can start here (scroll down a bit): https://sites.google.com/site/brunwater/water-knowledge

 

[jtupper]

Thanks again Yoop. Im off to work now, but I will be making another attempt at one of the other spreadsheets you mentioned. In the meantime I also emailed Desler over at SN since their pale ale is one of my favs. I don't know if he will respond, but it never hurts to ask. Im thinking they might shoot me some help on what water they use.

I would really just like to start making great APA house beer pipeline, and not get heavy into brewing and recipe design like last time. But we will see how that goes.

 

[ajdelange]

On to the post....I had always heard gypsum doesn't dissolve well into brewing water and will fall out of suspension rather easy. Is this not the case anymore?

The laws of physical chemistry have not changed in the last few years. The solubility of CaSO4.2H20 is still 2.4 grams/L at 20°C. But note that it decreases as temperature increases so that if you wanted 600 mg/L sulfate (and there are some crazy enough to want that) you will have to dissolve over a gram of the salt per liter and, if you have loaded up on calcium chloride too, heat and common ion effect might cause some precipitation. Keep the levels sensible and this should not be a problem.

I had always added the salts for this reason and never relied on the gypsum, or chalks for that matter.

Gypsum is a salt (calcium hydroxide with sulfuric acid). Chalk is a salt (Calcium hydroxide with carbonic acid).

And if i remember correctly you are not a believer in the chloride/sulfate ratio, but more just the amount of sulfates? Can you elaborate y?

The elaboration is at https://www.homebrewtalk.com/showthread.php?t=526109

 

[Sadu]

I'b be very interested to hear how your APA came out, once you are done with it.

My water is not too different to yours, though less calcium and less bicarbonate. I brewed my first water-adjusted APA today aiming to loosely follow the pale ale profile in Brunwater and hit ~100 calcium, ~150 sulfate (Brunwater suggests 300 in this profile but I want to start off easy). Mash ended up at 5.5 pH, was targeting a little lower but again, being conservative to start out.

My APAs have all been excellent without any adjustment so very keen to see if I can detect that 'perception of dryness' and whether it improves the product.

 

[ajdelange]

....so very keen to see if I can detect that 'perception of dryness' and whether it improves the product.

Remember that you can check on this by adding gypsum to finished beer.