Should we be eliminating copper hardware?

[k-moe]

First world problems. We have it so good that we worry about everything.

 

[humerus]

Surprised that in 4 pages, no one has discussed that copper is often manufactured with lead. To me, that is the bigger issue than leaching copper, which is regulated in the body by the ceruloplasmin system..seems to be more of an issue with people w/ Wilson's disease.

Lead on the other hand, accumulates. Lead is also found in brass, which I am sure is found in many brewer's set-ups. Brass is also found in plumbing in older homes/buildings, and yet people don't seem to have major problems. As for where I stand on the issue? My brewery is all stainless steel..one less thing to worry about. This boiled down to spending $10 more dollars on fittings, and choosing an immersion chiller that was SS. I am fine with waiting an additional few minutes to chill..no skin off my back.

 

[JunkCatsOnThePorch]

I have a copper bottle washer/blaster. I have to clean it regularly to get rid of the bad green stuff. This thread just made me realize that I can not see inside of it!

 

[skw]

...and there's chromium in stainless steel! Chlorine in table salt! And have you ever seen what sodium does in water?

The mere presence of an element in a system doesn't mean much by itself. We can speculate about the (suspected or proven) dangers of copper, aluminum, lead or chromium in our equipment, but it won't mean much if we don't measure them in the end product. Just think of the discussion about dental amalgam: We all agree that mercury is a heavy metal and its fumes are dangerous. Actual evidence showing a causality between dental fillings and mercury poisoning however, that's a whole different story.

 

[UndeadFred]

Modern brass made in the last five to ten years uses no lead in the process. The older stuff used a little as a surface working material but it could be passivated out easily. Another panic about nothing. Any brass in your house that has been used for more than a few weeks will have lead levels so low you won't be able to measure them. As for copper, the yeast will take up almost all of it as stated above. If there was enough present in your wort to be toxic to the yeast you would know pretty quickly. Copper also oxidizes and that will slow down leaching. Not as much as Aluminum or Chromium Oxide but a bit.

 

[cegan09]

Surprised that in 4 pages, no one has discussed that copper is often manufactured with lead. To me, that is the bigger issue than leaching copper, which is regulated in the body by the ceruloplasmin system..seems to be more of an issue with people w/ Wilson's disease.

Lead on the other hand, accumulates. Lead is also found in brass, which I am sure is found in many brewer's set-ups. Brass is also found in plumbing in older homes/buildings, and yet people don't seem to have major problems. As for where I stand on the issue? My brewery is all stainless steel..one less thing to worry about. This boiled down to spending $10 more dollars on fittings, and choosing an immersion chiller that was SS. I am fine with waiting an additional few minutes to chill..no skin off my back.

This shows a severe lack of understanding. Yes, copper can be produced alongside other metals like gold, lead, zinc, or silver. But that fact does not mean there are toxic levels of lead in copper. Again, your tap water is delivered through copper at some point, and has been for decades, if there was reason to be alarmed we'd know about it. Brass was explained by another member.

As pointed out, a mere mention of a base element means nothing if you don't understand more about it. table salt is a combination of two nasty elements (sodium and chlorine). Arsenic is used in semiconductors. Potassium explodes in water, but it's also good for you. And stainless steel is a minimum of 10% chromium, something that on it's own is really bad for you. The point is you need to do more homework before parroting back a statement like "copper is manufactured with lead" without understanding what that means.

 

[BrunDog]

I don't understand the points some of you are making about elements on their own such as sodium, chlorine, etc. Totally irrelevant to the conversation. Should I counter with "well, if a piano falls on you from 10 stories up, it will kill you!". Besides, there is no science behind sodium becoming dissociated from chlorine (good luck trying that) and the resulting gas impacting human health.

We are discussing copper. And there is very real science about toxicity, which by the way, from some of the resources above, do show a link between copper fed drinking water and toxicological effects.

At the end of the day, the agency statement above, offered by Brad2287 (thank you for citing this), and Martin's reiterations of Palmer's statements (thank you), copper in our brewing does not pose a significant risk.

 

[cegan09]

I don't understand the points some of you are making about elements on their own such as sodium, chlorine, etc. Totally irrelevant to the conversation. Should I counter with "well, if a piano falls on you from 10 stories up, it will kill you!". Besides, there is no science behind sodium becoming dissociated from chlorine (good luck trying that) and the resulting gas impacting human health.

We are discussing copper. And there is very real science about toxicity, which by the way, from some of the resources above, do show a link between copper fed drinking water and toxicological effects.

At the end of the day, the agency statement above, offered by Brad2287 (thank you for citing this), and Martin's reiterations of Palmer's statements (thank you), copper in our brewing does not pose a significant risk.

you are right. I wasn't trying to claim that salt will magically fall apart and harm you. But I encounter people day in and day out that parrot off statements like the one humerus made with no understanding of what it means and incorrect extrapolated outcomes. That's what I was attempting to fight. You can't just throw out a statement like "copper is made with lead" without providing the real story, which is that it's a non-issue. Those examples I listed were from real world encounters of people I've met trying to create panics from nothing.


And you're right, incorrectly cared for copper can be harmful, in water lines or brewing. But following proper basic maintenance will negate that. The linked sources are correct, there is little to no concern with copper in beer making, assuming you are not allowing it to get extremely corroded.

 

[MilkStout]

Here is what I found on the a FDA web page: http://www.fda.gov/Food/GuidanceRegulation/RetailFoodProtection/FoodCode/ucm189212.htm

FDA Food Code 2009: Annex 3 - Public Health Reasons / Administrative Guidelines - Chapter 4, Equipment, Utensils, and Linens 4-101.14 Copper, Use Limitation.

High concentrations of copper are poisonous and have caused foodborne illness. When copper and copper alloy surfaces contact acidic foods, copper may be leached into the food. Carbon dioxide may be released into a water supply because of an ineffective or nonexistent backflow prevention device between a carbonator and copper plumbing components. The acid that results from mixing water and carbon dioxide leaches copper from the plumbing components and the leachate is then transferred to beverages, causing copper poisoning. Backflow prevention devices constructed of copper and copper alloys can cause, and have resulted in, the leaching of both copper and lead into carbonated beverages.
Brass is an alloy of copper and zinc and contains lead which is used to combine the two elements. Historically, brass has been used for items such as pumps, pipe fitting, and goblets. All 3 constituents are subject to leaching when they contact acidic foods, and food poisoning has resulted from such contact.

The steps in beer brewing include malting, mashing, fermentation, separation of the alcoholic beverage from the mash, and rectification. During mashing, it is essential to lower the pH from its normal 5.8 in order to optimize enzymatic activity. The pH is commonly lowered to 5.1-5.2, but may be adjusted to as low as 3.2. The soluble extract of the mash (wort) is boiled with hops for 1 to 22 hours or more. After boiling, the wort is cooled, inoculated with brewers yeast, and fermented. The use of copper equipment during the prefermentation and fermentation steps typically result in some leaching of copper.

Because copper is an essential nutrient for yeast growth, low levels of copper are metabolized by the yeast during fermentation. However, studies have shown that copper levels above 0.2 mg/L are toxic or lethal to the yeast. In addition, copper levels as low as 3.5 mg/L have been reported to cause symptoms of copper poisoning in humans. Therefore, the levels of copper necessary for successful beer fermentation (i.e., below 0.2 mg/L) do not reach a level that would be toxic to humans.

Today, domestic beer brewers typically endeavor to use only stainless steel or stainless steel-lined copper equipment (piping, fermenters, filters, holding tanks, bottling machines, keys, etc.) in contact with beer following the hot brewing steps in the beer making process. Some also use pitch-coated oak vats or glass-lined steel vats following the hot brewing steps. Where copper equipment is not used in beer brewing, it is common practice to add copper (along with zinc) to provide the nutrients essential to the yeast for successful fermentation.

 

[UndeadFred]

Hmm.. A lot of breweries still use copper tanks. So that is a bit of misinformation.

US Example:
http://www.newglarusbrewing.com/index.cfm/tour

Belgian example:
http://www.orval.be/en/8/Brewery Picture #1

We use far less copper than that in our setups .. again I wouldn't worry about it.

 

[Jim311]

Your house is loaded with copper pipes that carry your drinking water or the water from your water heater to your shower head, sink, etc. Standard procedure in house building really. People mentioning the lead content of plumbing fixtures should be aware that food/water grade plumbing fixtures are legally mandated to be "ultra low lead" as long as they are buying the correct grade. This means fractions of a percent which will not harm you. People should also note that some of the copper home brewers are using is NOT food grade. Refrigeration grade copper lines could contain lead or other trace metals, so buyer beware when buying that cheapo copper to build your chillers.

 

[MilkStout]

Agree UndeadFred, just sharing what is on the FDA web page. It wouldn't be the first time the FDA was incorrect.

 

[MaxStout]

Refrigeration grade copper lines could contain lead or other trace metals, so buyer beware when buying that cheapo copper to build your chillers.

From the ASTM B280 standards for copper AC/refrigerant tubing:

Copper tube used for air conditioning and refrigeration applications in the field (sometimes called "refer" or "ACR" tube) is an almost pure copper material meeting the requirements of ASTM B 280 - Standard Specification for Seamless Copper Tube for Air Conditioning and Refrigeration Field Service. It is manufactured from copper alloy C12200 having a chemical composition of a minimum of 99.9% Copper (Cu) and Silver (Ag) combined and a maximum allowable range of Phosphorous (P) of 0.015 % - 0.040 %.

I think we'll be OK with our DIY chillers. And I doubt very much that chillers sold by brew stores are using something else, when ACR tubing is so readily available.

 

[Jim311]

Assuming it meets those ASTM standards, that is.

 

[Firewalker11]

Assuming it meets those ASTM standards, that is.

Assuming they want customers to come back and buy more. :smack:

Why does this thread remind me of DMHO? You breathe that stuff, even for a second and you die!!!

 

[BrunDog]

Copper will not typically contain lead unless it was processed with it. Brass will have small amounts of lead in it and, IMHO, should be avoided in brew hardware.

 

[MaxStout]

Assuming they want customers to come back and buy more. :smack:

Why does this thread remind me of DMHO? You breathe that stuff, even for a second and you die!!!

I have yet to see any copper tubing in stores, or used by contractors, that wasn't ASTM-compliant. Even the cheap Chinese-made tubing sold in home center stores has the certification clearly marked on the packaging.

I suppose it is possible to find some that isn't certified, but it would have to be very cut-rate. Maybe on Alibaba.

As for brass fittings, I believe the new federal regs require lead content to be <0.25%. Plumbing solder has been subject to a lead-free (<0.20%) requirement since the 1990s.

 

[jddevinn]

Data for inorganic components of beer on average per style from From Brewing Science and Practice Woodhead publishing 2004

Just for reference

 

[max384]

Surprised that in 4 pages, no one has discussed that copper is often manufactured with lead. To me, that is the bigger issue than leaching copper, which is regulated in the body by the ceruloplasmin system..seems to be more of an issue with people w/ Wilson's disease.

Lead on the other hand, accumulates. Lead is also found in brass, which I am sure is found in many brewer's set-ups. Brass is also found in plumbing in older homes/buildings, and yet people don't seem to have major problems. As for where I stand on the issue? My brewery is all stainless steel..one less thing to worry about. This boiled down to spending $10 more dollars on fittings, and choosing an immersion chiller that was SS. I am fine with waiting an additional few minutes to chill..no skin off my back.

Copper toxicity is not just a problem for someone with Wilson's Disease. If dietary copper sources are too high, anyone can develop copper toxicity, since the body's copper excretion system is pretty slow.

Lead pipe bought new does not pose a lead exposure risk. If you're pulling pipe out of a house built in the 60s, than, yeah, you might run into lead problems.

 

[augiedoggy]

So, where is this "increasing dialogue" happening? If copper were such a problem, it seems we would have known about it long ago, given the heavy use of Cu in cookware and water supplies for centuries. The human body needs small amounts of Cu to function properly.

Brew on

Organic copper found in the human body is not the same as the inorganic heavy metal...

From wiki


"Copper in the blood and blood stream exists in two forms: bound to ceruloplasmin (85&#8211;95%), and the rest "free", loosely bound to albumin and small molecules. Free copper normally reduces oxidative stress, as it is involved in the metabolic elimination of reactive oxygen species, such as with the superoxide radical through Cu-Zn dependent superoxide dismutase.[1] Excessive free copper impairs zinc homeostasis, and vice versa, which in turn impairs antioxidant enzyme function, increasing oxidative stress.[1] Chronically elevated levels of copper intake produces zinc deficiency.[1]

Nutritionally, there is a distinct difference between organic and inorganic copper, according to whether the copper ion is bound to an organic ligand.[2][3] Organic copper, like that found in food, is a beneficial micronutrient needed for good health.[4] Inorganic metallic copper, like that found in electrical wire, plumbing pipes, brass fittings, redox water filters, sheet metal, cooking utensils, jewelry and pennies, is a neurotoxic heavy metal linked to physical and psychiatric symptoms on par with mercury and lead.[5][6][7][8]"

 

[augiedoggy]

I mentioned a couple times already in other threads that I was in Belgium for a couple weeks for work recently ad while there I Visited the "Kazematten" micro brewery which was a neat brewery built into an old world war 1 bunker in Iepers city wall... Anyway While on a small tour of the brewry the tour guide who was also one of the brewery owners and had a full time job as a biologist or something along those lines Stated out of the blue when showing up the steam heated copper kettle that they purchased it used for a good price because the breweries there were all moving away from using copper for health reasons among others... he cited the health effects form the copper and stated that He had a lot of knowledge on this from his schooling and career field in his full time job. He then stated they were only using the copper equipment themselves until they wcould afford to replace it in the near future.

Also I like history and old building and have read about instances where the whole brewery was gutted or abandon when they decided to eliminate copper from thier equipment.

This old Stella brewery in Belgium is a good example.
http://opacity.us/site138_stella_artois_brewery.htm

The fact of the matter is once copper was used in making wine and cooking and now that is no longer allowed in most countries. all current copper cookware has to be lined with something else like tin or stainless and acid liquids cause the worst reactions... Wort is what 5.2-5.6 ideally? I strongly believe the industry is phasing copper out slowly because of the tremendous cost and shock it would be to many smaller breweries if they didnt... similiarly to the way heavy metal fillings where phased out of dentist offices and not most dentists will go as far as to remove those fillings and replace them just because of the negative health effects they have been proven to contribute to in some cases...

It took about 70 years for the industry to eliminate asbestos AFTER they learned and documented its negative health effect so something like this thats less likely to ever be prove to be tied to someones death is not suprisinly going going to be eliminated slowly. Hell even copper plumbing is becoming increasingly more and more under fire with articles like this.
http://articles.mercola.com/sites/a...e-may-cause-heart-disease-and-alzheimers.aspx

Remember water pipes were once made of lead and even those weren't phased out overnight to my knowledge? ... It had to be done gradually as to not cause panic and major financial losses... Kind of like whats being done with cigarettes and Phillipp Morris being given time to invest in other markets like kraft foods.
The brewery in belgium and thier copper equipment.

 

[augiedoggy]

I suppose it is possible to find some that isn't certified, but it would have to be very cut-rate. Maybe on Alibaba.

You do realize that a very good portion of the homebrewing suppliers buy their product on alibaba right? I heard on the news radio that During aliexpress's "black friday" sale they sold more than 7 times the mechandise than amazon and ebay put together during thier black friday sales in 2014.... alibaba and its retail site aliexpress are the words leading marketing distribution sites right now for the main reason that china exports more good than anyone any its the the outlet for those chinese manufacturers and suppliers to sell to middlemen to rebrand and markup So we can buy it for 10 times the cost and sleep better at night because we bought it from an American company.

You can find things like the heating elements ebrew supply buys there and sells for $42 plus shipping sold for between $3-10 a piece depending on volume purchased here http://www.alibaba.com/product-deta...62175659.html?spm=a2700.7724838.30.260.wVmlxj

Even Auberins orders their stuff from Alibaba suppliers...
Just saying just because there junk sold on alibaba there doesn't mean everything there should be associated with dangerous cheap knockoffs... its a big resource like the internet itself..

 

[Jim311]

Yeah, my only point was that people need to pay attention to make sure the plumbing fittings and hardware they buy meet the basic standards. It's not irrelevant information, it's important. You don't want to use galvanized fittings that might contain lead for your brew kettle or some such nonsense. With that said, there's a lot of unfounded paranoia in this thread, but also some good information mixed in here and there too.

 

[MaxStout]

You do realize that a very good portion of the homebrewing suppliers buy their product on alibaba right? I heard on the news radio that During aliexpress's "black friday" sale they sold more than 7 times the mechandise than amazon and ebay put together during thier black friday sales in 2014.... alibaba and its retail site aliexpress are the words leading marketing distribution sites right now for the main reason that china exports more good than anyone any its the the outlet for those chinese manufacturers and suppliers to sell to middlemen to rebrand and markup.

You can find things like the heating elements ebrew supply sells for $42 plus shipping sold for betewwen $3-10 a piece depending on volume purchased here http://www.alibaba.com/product-deta...62175659.html?spm=a2700.7724838.30.260.wVmlxj

Even Auberins orders their stuff from Alibaba suppliers...

Reading that just gave me a headache.

I was spitballing on the Alibaba thing. I have no idea if their copper tubing is ASTM-compliant.

 

[augiedoggy]

Reading that just gave me a headache.

I was spitballing on the Alibaba thing. I have no idea if their copper tubing is ASTM-compliant.

Yeah I could see that when rereading it.

Well in a nutshell I was just saying that all of us including yourself have bought stuff from alibaba, Most of us just got it through a middleman like the large portion of the sponsors here. Hell you can find almost every homebrewing conical sold there direct except the few that are made in Toledo or made for SSbrewtech and bru gear in china.

 

[augiedoggy]

Yeah, my only point was that people need to pay attention to make sure the plumbing fittings and hardware they buy meet the basic standards. It's not irrelevant information, it's important. You don't want to use galvanized fittings that might contain lead for your brew kettle or some such nonsense. With that said, there's a lot of unfounded paranoia in this thread, but also some good information mixed in here and there too.

I can respect that opinion... But at the same time its just as silly to say because its now currently not against code or the law it never will be proven harmful? history alone shows how silly that blind line of thinking can be.

At one time you can find people claiming the thought of anything was silly before it eventually became excepted and known to be a problem regardless to evidence. People shouldn't just blindly trust in other people to do their thinking for the all the time... Just about every month some drug that was safe the month before is pulled from the market after its shown to possibly do more harm than good some of them end up causing a lot of damage and deaths before this happens.... The health of the consumers health is not always the priority... History has shown that time and time again what makes today any different?

You can find some funny commercials and press releases on you tube about now known dangerous things.
Like the one when the (then) owner of Phillip Morris stated that smoking while pregnant has no proven negative impact and if anything its desirable that it can result in smaller babies The reality was that when this statement was made it had already been scientifically and with out a doubt, been proven to be harmful for over 10 years! It took lobbying to the Feds and surgeon generals warning before people would take any of it seriously. The result after that was a steady decline of asthma cases reported each year and its easy to spot the countries with the highest amount of people ignorant to this information

 

[augiedoggy]

Copper will not typically contain lead unless it was processed with it. Brass will have small amounts of lead in it and, IMHO, should be avoided in brew hardware.

I should point out that starting like 2 years ago all brass plumbing components designed for water use sold have to be "lead free" meaning they have like 2% lead content on average... A home brewer can use a process with household chemicals to draw the lead on the surface out of the brass although I dont remember how off hand... and if your using old brass you found at a selvage yard or in your dads garage then yeah all bets are off on lead content and it still turns funky with nasty colors when used in home brewing so I would avoid it

 

[doug293cz]

Organic copper found in the human body is not the same as the inorganic heavy metal...

From wiki


"Copper in the blood and blood stream exists in two forms: bound to ceruloplasmin (85–95%), and the rest "free", loosely bound to albumin and small molecules. Free copper normally reduces oxidative stress, as it is involved in the metabolic elimination of reactive oxygen species, such as with the superoxide radical through Cu-Zn dependent superoxide dismutase.[1] Excessive free copper impairs zinc homeostasis, and vice versa, which in turn impairs antioxidant enzyme function, increasing oxidative stress.[1] Chronically elevated levels of copper intake produces zinc deficiency.[1]

Nutritionally, there is a distinct difference between organic and inorganic copper, according to whether the copper ion is bound to an organic ligand.[2][3] Organic copper, like that found in food, is a beneficial micronutrient needed for good health.[4] Inorganic metallic copper, like that found in electrical wire, plumbing pipes, brass fittings, redox water filters, sheet metal, cooking utensils, jewelry and pennies, is a neurotoxic heavy metal linked to physical and psychiatric symptoms on par with mercury and lead.[5][6][7][8]"

Link please. There are countless wikis on the net, so "from wiki" is not a proper reference.

Brew on

 

[augiedoggy]

...and there's chromium in stainless steel! Chlorine in table salt! And have you ever seen what sodium does in water?

The mere presence of an element in a system doesn't mean much by itself. We can speculate about the (suspected or proven) dangers of copper, aluminum, lead or chromium in our equipment, but it won't mean much if we don't measure them in the end product. Just think of the discussion about dental amalgam: We all agree that mercury is a heavy metal and its fumes are dangerous. Actual evidence showing a causality between dental fillings and mercury poisoning however, that's a whole different story.

It was enough of an issue to phase them out and have my dentist insist on removing and replacing them. people made moonshine once in lead riddled stills and not all of the people who drank from in had issues but you can bet it caused problems for some... there are forms of cancer that are caused by unknown environmental factors... people get these all the time and there is usually enough investigation done at that point to track down the true cause... With all our science and knowledge thyroid, liver and kidney cancers are still rising each year.

My take on it is you would have to consume a lot of beer made in copper to likely see any bad effects but since I do drink a lot of the beer I make why take the unnecessary risk? Its just not worth it.

 

[BrunDog]

I should point out that starting like 2 years ago all brass plumbing components designed for water use sold have to be "lead free" meaning they have like 2% lead content on average... A home brewer can use a process with household chemicals to draw the lead on the surface out of the brass although I dont remember how off hand... and if your using old brass you found at a selvage yard or in your dads garage then yeah all bets are off on lead content and it still turns funky with nasty colors when used in home brewing so I would avoid it

I remember seeing an article about how to try to remove lead from brass... Bottom line is that the process generally doesn't work, and often makes it worse. It's a personal call of course, but you won't find brass on my rig.