Should we be eliminating copper hardware?

[MaxStout]

If there is more copper than acceptable for the style is probably SHOULD be removed.

How do we know how much copper is acceptable for a particular style? Does the BJCP have guidelines on that?

 

[jddevinn]

How do we know how much copper is acceptable for a particular style? Does the BJCP have guidelines on that?

Data for inorganic components of beer on average per style from From Brewing Science and Practice Woodhead publishing 2004

Just for reference

Example, table sights several sources so more information could probably be found. Really I'm not concerned with copper at the moment, there are many other process improvements i could make

 

[BrunDog]

Still not sure what all the debate is about. Botulism has killed millions yet is essential to life for some in well placed injections (not cosmetically). Arsenic is essential in foundries and asbestos is still widely used in friction linings.

And radioactive uranium is needed for nuclear power plants!

Still, you don't eat any of these... clearly you really don't understand the debate.

 

[slym2none]

I threw a penny into the boil of my wort last night, and got attacked by six Al Quedas for my trouble.

 

[milldoggy]

I been debating on replacing my copper for a while as I been having some neuropathy issues and just trying to eliminate some factors(I know alchol is a neurotoxin). I currently have a chillzilla, does the stainless version work as well or close? Do the stainless counterflow convulated work at all?

 

[Firewalker11]

Sure I do, I understand classic knee jerking just fine. True to the debate, saccharin was banned decades ago then it was ruled to be safe once again.

The classic knee-jerk on any subject is to use a negative and make it universal so that one can beat their drum all around town.

There is, was and will be no evidence of copper or lead leaching in homebrewing, simply none of the criteria are met. No strong acids or base, no corrosion issues unless the brewer is grossly negligent.

The same is true of mercury in that as a liquid metal, it's correct/safe use has been proven to be very valuable over time.

In my opinion, this is all jack-jawing and not worth the 01's wasted to create the text.

Brew on my thirsty friends!

 

[specharka]

This thread makes my head hurt. There's always going to be some article (legitimate or not) you can cite to prove a connection between a perceived ailment and a chemical compound. It's useless trying to debate the subject because it's such a personally charged argument -- like trying to dispute purported findings from anti-vaxxers. They are going to listen to whatever idea which validates their personal beliefs and choices.

Regardless of whether or not copper has a negative impact on human anatomy as a part of the brewing process, I can promise one thing: the alcohol in beer is going to kill you much, much faster. So if you're seriously concerned about the health consequences of your homebrewing habits, you should probably forego brewing entirely.

 

[k-moe]

And radioactive uranium is needed for nuclear power plants!

Still, you don't eat any of these... clearly you really don't understand the debate.

It's much more likely that you'll be impacted by the negative effects of alcohol than you will by any negative effects of excess copper ingestion.
Once again...we live such a good life in developed nations that we end up worrying about crap that has already been proven to not have any significant negative effect on our health.

 

[skw]

Someone mentioned that malt contains some copper. Not only that it absorbs it from the soil, but in many countries copper salts are permitted as pesticide for organic farming.

 

[Stillraining]

However, you need to be aware that copper can develop a toxic blue-green oxide called verdigris. Verdigris includes several chemical compounds — cupric acetate, copper sulfate, cupric chloride, etc. — and these blue-green compounds should not be allowed to contact your beer or any other food item because they are readily soluble in weakly acidic solutions (like beer), and can lead to copper poisoning (i.e., nausea, vomiting). To clean heavy oxidation (black) and verdigris, use vinegar or oxalic acid-based cleansers like Revereware Copper and Stainless Steel cleanser.

Thanks for posting this FK....I had a batch that gave me an upset stomach drinking more then one.. and I actually tossed my cookies after drinking 2 1/2 beers of it. I blamed it on an over potent dose of star-san ( 5x the dose to be clear)...There was a small 2" long blue-green section on my copper IC that I brushed off prior to cooling but was not totally diligent on eradicating its underlying etching/tarnishing of the copper. This could have definitely been the cause of this problem from what you have posted here.
Im going to have to make a different way of storing my chiller so it doesn't just sit on a damp rag after cleaning and rinsing...maybe hang it to dry somewhere I guess.
Thanks Again mate!

 

[BrunDog]

I definitely learned a lesson I starting this thread - that a logical academic assessment will probably not be made by many. I asked a question, and people who didn't like the idea of their practices possibly being questioned spewed off unrelated comments in an attempt to derail the discussion, appear smart, or be funny. Such as it is on forums.

My last post here. I appreciate those who provided substantiated feedback regarding copper use in our rigs. I feel pretty good that having copper chillers which are maintained clean are appropriate/safe to use.

 

[MaxStout]

I wouldn't downplay this thread too much. I think it brought out many of the salient points of the concern with copper. The big takeaway I found was that the FDA threshold levels for copper are several times higher than the levels that are harmful to yeast. A few posters pointed this out. The yeast become the "canary in the coal mine" in that they will likely die off before the copper levels get to the point of being harmful in human consumption.

BrunDog, I appreciate you bringing up this topic for discussion.

 

[k-moe]

Please only let this be your last post in this thread, and not in the forum. Asking questions is the most important part of learning. Ignorance and fear only grows when those with knowledge and evidence remain silent.

 

[Yooper]

I definitely learned a lesson I starting this thread - that a logical academic assessment will probably not be made by many. I asked a question, and people who didn't like the idea of their practices possibly being questioned spewed off unrelated comments in an attempt to derail the discussion, appear smart, or be funny. Such as it is on forums.

My last post here. I appreciate those who provided substantiated feedback regarding copper use in our rigs. I feel pretty good that having copper chillers which are maintained clean are appropriate/safe to use.

Unfortunately, a forum can be that way although we try to keep discussions civil and fair. If there is something over the line, we'd appreciate a report on it so we could delete it if needed. Attempts to derail are specifically prohibited and we do try to stop those right away if we are aware of them.

I appreciate a discussion based on science.

 

[Firewalker11]

Were there unrelated posts made to derail or negate the topic? I think that when debating any topic, especially one that may be polarized, the use of anecdotal stories or opinions can serve to keep the focus on the overall issue. Whether I or anyone else are to post for the sake of humor or to fake intelligence, its just part of the forum life and one must thicken ones skin.

Brew on!

 

[krackin]

I wouldn't use any copper or copper alloy coming out of China. Then again, I don't buy anything out of China.

 

[Firewalker11]

I wouldn't use any copper or copper alloy coming out of China. Then again, I don't buy anything out of China.

Sadly, if you bought any stainless steel from the LHBS or the brew hardware stores, you are buying from China. The stainless steel foundries in the USA just can't compete with the Chinese economy.

 

[petey_c]

I learned some interesting things on this thread about copper/metals in brewing and cooking. I also learned about aliexpress.... I agree, the alcohol in beer will kill me sooner than any trace metals. Back to some required field testing!

 

[slym2none]

I am sorry that anyone took my attempt at humour as a way of me saying "My practices are being questioned!"

I have no dog in this fight (pardon the pun, OP), as I only BIAB and bottle my beer. My lame attempt at humour was nothing more than that - a lame attempt at humour.

 

[jr72023]

I definitely learned a lesson I starting this thread - that a logical academic assessment will probably not be made by many. I asked a question, and people who didn't like the idea of their practices possibly being questioned spewed off unrelated comments in an attempt to derail the discussion, appear smart, or be funny. Such as it is on forums.

My last post here. I appreciate those who provided substantiated feedback regarding copper use in our rigs. I feel pretty good that having copper chillers which are maintained clean are appropriate/safe to use.

It looked like a fairly academic assessment to me. Don't get butthurt. I learned a lot from this thread.

All things are toxic. It all amounts to the exposure level.

Exposure levels were discussed in detail with examples and citations. That is how the scientific method works.

You asked a good question that took a small veer off the rails when people asked just where all of this "discussion" against copper was. Once it got past the questioning of your intents, the posts were very direct in addressing the topic. All in all, a good post that will be easy to find if someone should ever search for it.

So, don't quit posting, please. In every class I have taught I always first inform people that there is no such thing as a dumb question. If they are thinking it, there is a very good chance someone else is thinking it and is afraid to ask.

To sum it up:
Anything can kill you if you over do it.
Unless, you live in Australia, then, everything can kill you.