Should we be eliminating copper hardware?

[BrunDog]

Searched but didn't find a thread dedicated to the topic...

I know most of us have DIY hardware or have bought some that contains copper, such as chillers. My rig has two CFC's, but that's the only copper in my rig.

Anyway, there seems to be some increasing dialogue and evidence that copper should not be used in cooking hardware or for breweries. I am trying to figure out how to go copper-free, so SS counterflow chillers might be in my future even though they suck as chilling compared to copper. Is this a real issue or a non-issue?

And... Discuss!

 

[ncsuwerewolf]

First thing i can think of is those large copper pot stills for liquor. If its good enough for them im sure the small amount we use is satisfactory.

 

[doug293cz]

So, where is this "increasing dialogue" happening? If copper were such a problem, it seems we would have known about it long ago, given the heavy use of Cu in cookware and water supplies for centuries. The human body needs small amounts of Cu to function properly.

Brew on

 

[cegan09]

Where are you seeing that copper is bad? You realize that most water lines are copper, and you come into contact with that far more often than you do from beer.

There are benefits either way. Stainless is easier to keep clean. But it also doesn't transfer heat as easily.

 

[FloppyKnockers]

I'm not too worried about it. I'm sure there is a rule 34-esque standard out there that says if it exists, there is a website that links it to cancer. My thunder-stealing, A-hole neighbor once told me that I should drive my new car with my windows down because the 'new car smell' is a heavy carcinogen.

That said, here's snip from an article from BYO about copper.

Copper
Copper has the highest heat conductivity, is easy to form and was traditionally used for making the brewing kettles or “coppers.” Copper can be readily soldered, brazed and welded with the proper equipment. Soldering and brazing should be more than adequate for most brewery uses.

Copper is relatively inert to both wort and beer. With regular use, it will build up a stable oxide layer (dull copper color) that will protect it from any further interaction with the wort. Only minimal cleaning to remove surface grime, hop bits and wort protein is necessary. There is no need to clean copper shiny-bright after every use or before contact with your wort. It is better if the copper is allowed to form a dull copper finish with use.

However, you need to be aware that copper can develop a toxic blue-green oxide called verdigris. Verdigris includes several chemical compounds — cupric acetate, copper sulfate, cupric chloride, etc. — and these blue-green compounds should not be allowed to contact your beer or any other food item because they are readily soluble in weakly acidic solutions (like beer), and can lead to copper poisoning (i.e., nausea, vomiting). To clean heavy oxidation (black) and verdigris, use vinegar or oxalic acid-based cleansers like Revereware Copper and Stainless Steel cleanser.

For regular cleaning of copper and brass, unscented dish detergent or sodium percarbonate-based cleaners are preferred. Cleaning and sanitizing copper wort chillers with bleach solutions is not recommended. Oxidizers like bleach and hydrogen peroxide quickly cause copper and brass to blacken; these oxides do not protect the surface from further corrosion, and are quickly dissolved by the acidic wort. Copper and other trace metals are beneficial nutrients for yeast, but the amounts that are dissolved from non-passive oxides can be detrimental to
the batch.

Copper counterflow wort chillers should not be stored full of sanitizer or water. Any biological deposits can lead to corrosion in both water or sanitizer. Copper should be rinsed thoroughly with clean water and allowed to drain
before storage.

Source: byo.com

 

[MaxStout]

I think the first step would be to find some reliable science on the dangers of copper toxicity in food/beverage use. Leaching of copper tends to be more of a factor when acidity is involved, as opposed to water pipes, where there is much less of a leaching problem.

I did a cursory search online, which turned up a lot of junk articles. FWIW, here's the wiki article on the subject. It might be worthwhile to comb through some of the primary sources cited in the end notes.

I'm very curious to see how this thread goes. Hopefully we can dig up some helpful information.

 

[FloppyKnockers]

Remember when we thought radiation, lead, and asbestos were the modern miracles of their time?

 

[blizz81]

I'm fine with using a copper IC. I can see the copper where my wort comes into contact with it, and can easily spot corrosion of any sort. Would never personally use a CFC with that being one of the reasons why. Outside of any corrosion or weird build-up, I'm fine with what I've read re: things dissolving into wort re: using copper in brewing.

 

[max384]

Searched but didn't find a thread dedicated to the topic...

I know most of us have DIY hardware or have bought some that contains copper, such as chillers. My rig has two CFC's, but that's the only copper in my rig.

Anyway, there seems to be some increasing dialogue and evidence that copper should not be used in cooking hardware or for breweries. I am trying to figure out how to go copper-free, so SS counterflow chillers might be in my future even though they suck as chilling compared to copper. Is this a real issue or a non-issue?

And... Discuss!

If you're concerned, send a sample of your wort, right before transferring to the fermenter, into a water testing lab, and have it tested for copper. Or, alternatively, buy a copper test kit. This way you'll know for sure if your setup is leaching copper into your beer.

My thoughts are that you're probably pretty unlikely to have much copper leach from the short amount of time that the liquid is in contact with the CFC... But I could be wrong.

 

[day_trippr]

I've read numerous claims that "Copper and other trace metals are beneficial nutrients for yeast" , and some recommend at least a section of plumbing 'tween kettle and fermentor be copper...

Cheers!

 

[orangehero]

There seems to be increasing dialogue that we shouldn't take anecdotal reports from anonymous strangers on the internet too seriously.

Don't use copper parts on the cold side of the brewery. Otherwise feel safe to build an all-copper brewery.

 

[UndeadFred]

Hmm.. Aluminum will give you Alzheimers, Copper will give you, what worts? So if the chromium layer bad in stainless as well?

You have to use SOMETHING to cook/brew with. Plastics? Pthalates... etc... sigh. I would imagine copper and chromium both are probably the best metals since only the hexavalent form of chromium is poisonous. I am of the opinion Aluminum is fine when passivated as well. But that is me. So no, don't switch out to Stainless the rationale for copper being bad would apply to SS as well...

 

[brewcat]

Copper cookware should have some sort of layer between it and the cooking surface. Otherwise acidic foods will leach copper. That can cause health problems. How acidic is wort? Tomatoes are under 5.

 

[madscientist451]

Is this a real issue or a non-issue?

And... Discuss!

Alcohol is a known poison that if consumed in enough quantity can result in death. Lesser consumption can cause liver problems, as well as headaches, fatigue, weight gain and numerous other problems.
Is the use of copper in brewing any worse than the effects of alcohol on the human body? How much copper actually gets into a beer?

 

[BrunDog]

Well, I certainly appreciate all the humor, but sticking your head in the sand doesn't mean you wont get mauled by a hungry lion. The very advanced civilization in Pompeii during the first century built pipes made of lead and had running water. If you told anyone of them then that they should not use the metal they did, they would say you were crazy because they had advanced science and had running water!

Well, I think its worth solid evaluation. The copper in our beer from short lengths of pipe in our rigs is probably not a big enough worry to panic, but I think figuring out the risks may be worthwhile. If there are none, then great. But we need relevant science to give us the evidence either way.

 

[Qhrumphf]

As beer is probably the most studied beverage in history, and as throughout history (and still to this day in parts), many commercial boil kettles were made of copper (hence the enduring term for the kettle in English brewing as the "copper"), it's been tested, and no significant copper content comes out of the kettle. And at that point, you're taking acidity and heat, two big catalysts.

I'm not worried about using copper in any way, shape or form.

If you're going to bring something up about "dialogue and evidence" and then chastise people for "sticking their heads in the sand", please back up your initial assertion with evidence. It's already been asked where these discussions are, as many of us obviously are oblivious to them. I'll admit that I'm not subscribed to the ASBC or anything, but I've never heard that anywhere. If anything, I've heard having some copper is beneficial (simply using a copper wort chiller usually enough) for reasons beyond just heat transfer.

 

[Firewalker11]

Remember when we thought radiation, lead, and asbestos were the modern miracles of their time?

They still are. The idea is to understand the limitations and use them appropriately.

 

[blizz81]

Well, I certainly appreciate all the humor, but sticking your head in the sand doesn't mean you wont get mauled by a hungry lion. The very advanced civilization in Pompeii during the first century built pipes made of lead and had running water. If you told anyone of them then that they should not use the metal they did, they would say you were crazy because they had advanced science and had running water!

Well, I think its worth solid evaluation. The copper in our beer from short lengths of pipe in our rigs is probably not a big enough worry to panic, but I think figuring out the risks may be worthwhile. If there are none, then great. But we need relevant science to give us the evidence either way.

I guess the aforementioned passages from John Palmer aren't enough "relevant science"? I guess he / BYO don't cite scientific journals as their sources so far as I can see, if that's the level of confirmation you're looking for. From the same article:

"Copper is a double-edged sword in brewing. It is beneficial before fermentation, but detrimental afterwards. Copper ions react with the hydrogen sulfide produced during fermentation and reduce it to insoluble copper sulfide, which is left behind with the trub and yeast cake. Switching to all stainless steel brewing equipment can lead to noticeable quantities of hydrogen sulfide and sulfur off-flavors and aromas in the beer. The use of copper wort chillers will provide all the copper necessary, as will including a short piece (1 inch) of copper tubing in the boil.

Copper is a problem post-fermentation because it catalyzes staling reactions, including the production of hydrogen peroxide and can oxidize the alcohols to aldehydes. Finished beer should not be stored in contact with copper, although serving beer with copper tubing in a jockey box should not be a problem, because of the short contact time immediately before serving.

Copper pennies will also work in the boil to supply necessary copper, as will brass, but the caveat with both pennies and brass is the zinc. While zinc is an important nutrient for yeast growth, it can be too much of a good thing. Corrosion of brass can cause increased acetaldehyde and fusel alcohol production due to high yeast growth when zinc concentrations exceed 5 ppm. Excess zinc can also cause soapy or goaty flavors. But like copper, brass is usually stable in wort and will turn dull with regular use as it builds up a passive oxide layer."


I mean, enough of the stuff I've read in passing like that from people who have put far more effort into researching the issue than I am willing leads me to believe copper is fine. That and it's obviously the leading seller re: material when it comes to chillers. I think we have a little more science these days than Pompeii, but you may think otherwise. Seems to me with the amount of time copper has been involved in brewing (hundreds of years), if it hasn't been put together yet that it alone is definitely killing us, I don't think it's going to at this point...and that's with a lot of exposure to copper tanks and copper stills vs. the tiny fraction of time our wort experiences copper on the homebrewing scale.

 

[afro_lou]

Well, I think its worth solid evaluation. The copper in our beer from short lengths of pipe in our rigs is probably not a big enough worry to panic, but I think figuring out the risks may be worthwhile. If there are none, then great. But we need relevant science to give us the evidence either way.

If you're going to bring something up about "dialogue and evidence" and then chastise people for "sticking their heads in the sand", please back up your initial assertion with evidence.

+1
@BrunDog , cite your sources.
It has been mentioned that copper is beneficial to yeast health, and beneficial to human health. Of course, anything in high enough concentrations will harm you, but I'd be pretty confident that it's nearly impossible to reach those concentrations in a "hot-side" environment. Of course, there's good reason that copper is discouraged as a fermenter.

Edit: blizz81 beat me to it, and much more eloquently at that.

 

[BrunDog]

I am asking the question, not making a statement. You'd think I called someone's baby ugly!

Yes, scientific sources are needed and I should post them. But other than two responses, everyone has offered conjecture as well as I. Those two sources are the Wikipedia article (con) and Palmer (pro).

 

[Qhrumphf]

http://morebeer.com/brewingtechniques/library/backissues/issue4.5/miller.html

 

[Pkrd]

Excess zinc can also cause soapy or goaty flavors.

He says it like its a bad thing.

 

[NatureOfTheYeast]

Copper has been a well established material in brewing for centuries, and there have been numerous studies - some cited in this thread - that show that it is not only not harmful, but effective.

I would also like to see some of these sources on the 'harmful effects of copper in cookware and brewing' that BrunDog has mentioned. Personally, I'm always looking to learn, and to avoid "Pompeii scenarios", no matter how big or small. Until then this thread, unfortunately, will just be a reiteration of well established brewing science. While I appreciate the open discourse and information, I feel that this thread will go nowhere until specific sources are cited pertaining to the statements in the first post.

That being said, there has been a lot of good information linked to and posted in this thread pertaining to copper maintenance, and usage in the brewery. Such as preventing the blue/green/black corrosion, the role copper plays in yeast health, and why to avoid copper for fermentation, transferring, and storage on the cold-side. I thank all the contributors of that information, and I'm sure many brewers, new and old, do as well. Copper can be a tricky material to use and if not maintained properly, it can most definitely be harmful, so it's good to have that information out there at every opportunity.

If you couldn't tell, I use and will continue to use copper on the hot-side of my brewery. No offense to BrunDog, you're completely within your rights to voice a concern about a metal which is toxic in high doses, but you haven't presented enough information to convince me - and likely others as well - to do otherwise.

Sorry if I'm treating this thread like debate class...it must just be how I'm wired.

Brew on my brothers and sisters!

 

[elerten]

Copper being used isn't the problem, it's the maintenance of the copper. Large scale operations have mechanical integrity people that are constantly checking on the equipment and re-mediating problems. As long as you, as a home brewer are paying attention to the state of the equipment you should have no problem. That being said, stainless is basically maintenance free. I've used cuprous chloride in reactions we do. The stuff is nasty. It's basically copper that has been exposed to sulfur compunds, and it's oxidized the metal. It's freaking bad for you.

The cost / time / benefit to me is just not having to deal with wondering if i got copper parts clean, or if they are starting to fail. I just use stainless and don't worry about it. Even more so for the guys that are home brewers, but doing a lot of it.

 

[BrunDog]

Guys, no intention to ruffle feathers here. Note I did not make any claims, just asked the question. Many of you are demanding sources, yet have no scientific evidence to say Cu in brewing is OK, other than Palmer's article from 2007. No doubt he is credible, but there is no scientific study to support the claims. Copper toxicity is very real, the only question is if the copper in our brew rigs poses any real risk of dramatic elevation. Believe me, I want Palmer to be correct. The searches below do yield consistency that increased inorganic copper uptake results from drinking water fed from copper pipes, and there is a strongly correlated link to Alzheimers. Again, is that enough to say the bit of copper we use in brewing is of concern... we don't know.

There are many scientific articles on Cu toxicity, but many of them require a journal subscription or $$ for the article. Here are a couple, taken from the Wikipedia references (admittedly a couple lack their own references).

http://nutritionalbalancing.org/center/htma/science/articles/copper-toxicity.php#p-02
http://www.atsdr.cdc.gov/toxprofiles/tp132.pdf
http://metabolichealing.com/copper-toxicity-major-epidemic/
http://www.arltma.com/Articles/CopperToxDoc.htm
http://des.nh.gov/organization/commissioner/pip/factsheets/ard/documents/ard-ehp-9.pdf
http://ajcn.nutrition.org/content/88/3/855S.full.pdf+html
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20150596
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20097602
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20711927
http://pubs.acs.org/doi/abs/10.1021/tx900338d

 

[max384]

I am asking the question, not making a statement. You'd think I called someone's baby ugly!

Yes, scientific sources are needed and I should post them. But other than two responses, everyone has offered conjecture as well as I. Those two sources are the Wikipedia article (con) and Palmer (pro).

There is no debate as to whether too much copper is harmful to humans. It is. The only question is whether or not using copper in brewing will leech enough copper to be harmful to humans. Acceptable copper content levels for human consumption are readily available. The only variable in this equation is the copper content in your beer that you brew with copper components. Buy a test kit or send in your wort, and you'll have your answer.

 

[jddevinn]

From: Brewing Science and Practice Woodhead publishing 2004

Copper ions are toxic and mutagenic to yeasts, which accumulate them.

Copper ions are oxidation/reduction catalysts and their presence favours flavour instability and haze formation in beer.

Brewing liquor should contain <.01mg copper/litre

 

[mabrungard]

Copper is a necessary trace ion in brewing. Insufficient copper can manifest itself as sulfurous odors in the finished beer and poor yeast health. Copper is not typically a problem in brewing since yeast uptake virtually all copper and little to none make it into the beer. Colin Kaminski told me that the State of California studied the beers from a bunch of Cali breweries and found no copper in the beers. Do remember that Cali is one of those hyper states and they would have certainly applied a poison tag to beer if they had found it.

Don't worry about removing copper from your brewery gear. Your yeast and the beer need it. If you run an all stainless brewery with no copper contact, you should add a short piece of copper tubing to your kettle so that you add copper while brewing. Just lay the tube on the bottom of the kettle.

 

[xandersaml]

Alcohol is a known poison that if consumed in enough quantity can result in death. Lesser consumption can cause liver problems, as well as headaches, fatigue, weight gain and numerous other problems.
Is the use of copper in brewing any worse than the effects of alcohol on the human body? How much copper actually gets into a beer?

And yet, proper dosage can be healthy for you

 

[Brad2287]

Here is an authoritative source if you are looking for one.

http://www.fda.gov/Food/GuidanceRegulation/RetailFoodProtection/FoodCode/ucm189212.htm

Section 4-101.14of the FDA food code.

I have also tested via ICP-MS several of my finished products using the EPA method for copper in drinking water. The only source of copper I have is a counter flow chiller. I have yet to see copper levels above the detection limit.

Please also note in addition to the above information from the FDA the limit for copper in drinking water per the EPA is 1.3 mg/L.

http://www.epa.gov/your-drinking-water/table-regulated-drinking-water-contaminants

So your drinking water can have more copper at 1.3 mg/L than the toxicological limit of yeast at 0.2 mg/L that could be found in unfermented beer.

It would NOT be wise to introduce copper post fermentation as the above would no longer be true.