Should we be eliminating copper hardware?

[augiedoggy]

Link please. There are countless wikis on the net, so "from wiki" is not a proper reference.

Brew on

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copper_toxicity

 

[augiedoggy]

I remember seeing an article about how to try to remove lead from brass... Bottom line is that the process generally doesn't work, and often makes it worse. It's a personal call of course, but you won't find brass on my rig.

mine either but then again besides the brazing on my plate chiller you wont find copper in mine either...

I find it odd that there are so many who are concerned with using an fda approved plastic because they dont fully trust it and that ok but even suggesting such things about the use of a toxic heavy metal that already been banned from food contact in all other food industries for proven reasons that would still apply here to a degree is considered foolish and over the top?

 

[Brad2287]

mine either but then again besides the brazing on my plate chiller you wont find copper in mine either...

I find it odd that there are so many who are concerned with using an fda approved plastic because they dont fully trust it and that ok but even suggesting such things about the use of a toxic heavy metal that already been banned from food contact in all other food industries for proven reasons that would still apply here to a degree is considered foolish and over the top?

The use of copper in a brewery is FDA approved and has very sound reasoning. This has now been quoted several times in this thread.

Here is an authoritative source if you are looking for one.

http://www.fda.gov/Food/GuidanceRegu.../ucm189212.htm

Section 4-101.14of the FDA food code.

Please also note in addition to the above information from the FDA the limit for copper in drinking water per the EPA is 1.3 mg/L.

http://www.epa.gov/your-drinking-wat...r-contaminants

So your drinking water can have more copper at 1.3 mg/L than the toxicological limit of yeast at 0.2 mg/L that could be found in unfermented beer.

 

[augiedoggy]

The use of copper in a brewery is FDA approved and has very sound reasoning. This has now been quoted several times in this thread.

Here is an authoritative source if you are looking for one.

http://www.fda.gov/Food/GuidanceRegu.../ucm189212.htm

Section 4-101.14of the FDA food code.

Please also note in addition to the above information from the FDA the limit for copper in drinking water per the EPA is 1.3 mg/L.

http://www.epa.gov/your-drinking-wat...r-contaminants

So your drinking water can have more copper at 1.3 mg/L than the toxicological limit of yeast at 0.2 mg/L that could be found in unfermented beer.

Neither one of your links are working for me... Using an fda approved plastic cooler is just as safe according to the fda yet so many choose to "eliminate plastic for health concerns " like I said thats generally ok her with people yet this isnt. Because people have seen and noticed more recent discoveries with harmful effects of plastics breaking down. Things like BPA's became known to the average person and the effects of them being ingested was eventually proven after much debate and time. We've seen recent changes to some of the regulations because of it. Many people here are willing to accept another persons choice to question todays latest FDA regulations on it.

And no one is arguing that its not ok in the states according to our FDA's current regulations... That alone isnt the deciding factor on whether it doesnt raise health concerns. Those regulations constantly get tighter and change as time goes on and more is discovered. Contrary to popular belief the science of today isnt at the point where we know and see everything there is to learn... 30 years ago fda regulations allowed non lined copper cookware too... That changed.

If I could have gotten your links to work perhaps I would have learned something. Since I have heard that the yeast consumes a lot of the copper dissolved into the wort and most of that yeast drops out of the beer but can leave detectable flavors from this in the beer.... You would think the same would be true with wine then right? yet the FDA does not allow copper to be used in wine making? This is as good as a place as any to ask and learn why?

 

[Brad2287]

Neither one of your links are working for me... Using an fda approved plastic cooler is just as safe according to the fda yet so many choose to "eliminate plastic for health concerns " like I said thats generally ok her with people yet this isnt. Because people have seen and noticed more recent discoveries with harmful effects of plastics breaking down. Things like BPA's became known to the average person and the effects of them being ingested was eventually proven after much debate and time. We've seen recent changes to some of the regulations because of it. Many people here are willing to accept another persons choice to question todays latest FDA regulations on it.

And no one is arguing that its not ok in the states according to our FDA's current regulations... That alone isnt the deciding factor on whether it doesnt raise health concerns. Those regulations constantly get tighter and change as time goes on and more is discovered. Contrary to popular belief the science of today isnt at the point where we know and see everything there is to learn... 30 years ago fda regulations allowed non lined copper cookware too... That changed.

If I could have gotten your links to work perhaps I would have learned something. Since I have heard that the yeast consumes a lot of the copper dissolved into the wort and most of that yeast drops out of the beer but can leave detectable flavors from this in the beer.... You would think the same would be true with wine then right? yet the FDA does not allow copper to be used in wine making? This is as good as a place as any to ask and learn why?

Here are the links again... sorry they did not work.

http://www.fda.gov/Food/GuidanceRegulation/RetailFoodProtection/FoodCode/ucm189212.htm

Section 4-101.14 of the FDA food code. Yeast toxicity occurs around 0.2 mg/L. The toxicity of copper to Saccharomyces cerevisiae is very well documented and I would be happy to link many journal articles if you are interested.

Here is the EPA link for drinking water standard stating the limit is 1.3 mg/L Cu2+ in drinking water.

http://www.epa.gov/your-drinking-water/table-regulated-drinking-water-contaminants

Wine is allowed to have the direct addition of copper sulfate to a level of 0.5 mg/L copper when used for hydrogen sulfide removal.

The quantity of copper sulfate added (calculated as copper) must not exceed 6 parts copper per million parts of wine (6.0 mg/L). The residual level of copper in the finished wine must not exceed 0.5 parts per million (0.5 mg/L). 21 CFR 184.1261 (GRAS).

https://www.law.cornell.edu/cfr/text/27/24.246

I agree that many limits have been tightened and I often see this, being that my line of work heavily involves both the FDA and EPA. I have very little copper and no brass in my brewery because stainless is superior in so many regards.

 

[k-moe]

Nevermind.

 

[humerus]

This shows a severe lack of understanding. Yes, copper can be produced alongside other metals like gold, lead, zinc, or silver. But that fact does not mean there are toxic levels of lead in copper. Again, your tap water is delivered through copper at some point, and has been for decades, if there was reason to be alarmed we'd know about it. Brass was explained by another member.

As pointed out, a mere mention of a base element means nothing if you don't understand more about it. table salt is a combination of two nasty elements (sodium and chlorine). Arsenic is used in semiconductors. Potassium explodes in water, but it's also good for you. And stainless steel is a minimum of 10% chromium, something that on it's own is really bad for you. The point is you need to do more homework before parroting back a statement like "copper is manufactured with lead" without understanding what that means.

I meant accumulation, and was not referring to an acute exposure to lead. similar to mercury accumulation when eating fish. there is a bit of insoluble lead at outer grain of most copper and in interdendritic region. Nonetheless, I don't actually think its a problem, as it is a minuscule amount

 

[skw]

It was enough of an issue to phase them out and have my dentist insist on removing and replacing them. people made moonshine once in lead riddled stills and not all of the people who drank from in had issues but you can bet it caused problems for some... there are forms of cancer that are caused by unknown environmental factors... people get these all the time and there is usually enough investigation done at that point to track down the true cause... With all our science and knowledge thyroid, liver and kidney cancers are still rising each year.

My take on it is you would have to consume a lot of beer made in copper to likely see any bad effects but since I do drink a lot of the beer I make why take the unnecessary risk? Its just not worth it.

I could use that argument against any single item that touches beer. Is there an unnecessary risk from using cleaning agents? What about chromium in stainless, that's an unknown environmental factor. And what the heck is in the plastic on the inside of bottle caps? Where is the proof that bottle cap plastic does not cause Alzheimer's?

There are actual dangers to health in the beer that we produce. Alcohol. Fusels. Acetaldehyde. If we want to put copper on the list, then measure it - brew with copper, demonstrate that it shows up in dangerous levels in the final product.

For what it's worth, a German home brewer went through the trouble and had his beer analysed by a lab. The beer spent 3 hours of mashing and 90 minutes of boiling in a copper pot, and copper mesh was used as a trub filter:
http://hobbybrauer.de/modules.php?name=eBoard&file=viewthread&tid=20631
Result was 0.92ppm of copper (about half of what the WHO has as limit for drinking water), or in other words, you'd have to drink two pints to get your minimum recommended daily intake of copper or more than two gallons to reach what is considered the safe limit:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copper_in_health#Adults

Some health food web sites even advocate eating copper-rich foods - I know, questionable sources. The University of Maryland, what I would consider a slightly more reputable authority, claims: "Many people do not get enough copper in their diet, but it is rare to be truly deficient in copper.", followed by "Foods that contain copper include oysters, liver, whole grain breads and cereals, shellfish, dark green leafy vegetables, dried legumes, nuts, and chocolate."
http://umm.edu/health/medical/altmed/supplement/copper

Sounds like I can simply compensate for my copper wort chiller by not eating kale or whole grain for every beer I drink. What don't we sacrifice for health.

 

[BrunDog]

I could use that argument against any single item that touches beer. Is there an unnecessary risk from using cleaning agents? What about chromium in stainless, that's an unknown environmental factor. And what the heck is in the plastic on the inside of bottle caps? Where is the proof that bottle cap plastic does not cause Alzheimer's?

There is a difference between blind conjecture and evidence based science. We know that Cu, in certain real world applications, has deleterious effects. We know that BPA in plastic is dangerous. We don't know that the plastic in bottle caps causes any impact. Maybe someday evidence tells us otherwise. The point is to address known dangers, not use unknown dangers as an argument to ignore the known ones.

 

[skw]

We don't know that the plastic in bottle caps causes any impact. Maybe someday evidence tells us otherwise.

And the same thing applies to copper. Maybe, someday, evidence.

We agree on the danger of excess copper in your diet. But do we have evidence that merely using a copper chiller actually increases copper levels in beer to dangerous levels - or is that just blind conjecture?

I have plenty of materials touching my food and drink: plastic bottling wand with rubber gasket, dishwasher soap, teflon, cast iron and aluminum cooking ware, plastic cups, paper cups, vacuum sealed plastic hops packaging, oil residue on malt mills, etc. I have no idea what material the water pipes inside the walls of the house I bought are, and I have even less of an idea what material the pipes outside of my house are. There is plenty of room for concern. I'd focus on the ones that are demonstrated to be present in my beer and proven to be dangerous, because if I don't then I'll only drive myself crazy over all kinds of things that could maybe someday somehow happen - copper just being one of them.

After all, copper is not arsenic or lead - it's not one of those elements where the recommended daily dose is 0. It's something that is present in many foods, and both being too low and too high in copper can be bad for your health. So unless we have numbers of how much there actually is present in beer brewed with copper equipment, we have no clue. And in my previous post, I have provided a link to anecdotal evidence of a home brewer who made extensive use of copper, had his beer tested and it came back in the range of what is being considered safe for drinking water.

And what do we replace copper with? There is nothing proven to be harmless, there are only things without proof of harm. Stainless? Contains nickel, chromium and iron, and those things may or may not leech into food:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1514841
And similar to suspected links between Alzheimer's and aluminum, we have suspected links between Alzheimer's and iron:
http://www.sciencealert.com/high-iron-levels-in-the-brain-hastens-alzheimer-s-disease

Of course we don't assume that iron in a stainless kettle leads to excess iron in beer. Why would we assume that about copper?

 

[daveMN]

So, who's going to send a sample of their water into their brewery and a sample of wort to the FV to Ward Labs to see if there's any measurable amount of copper in the wort? That should resolve whether this is something to worry about.

 

[BrunDog]

I think at this point, from what has been posted, the best evidence comes from the FDA guidance, and the bottom line is copper in the wort will kill the yeast before it becomes harmful to the consumer downstream. I would always be conservative with respect to any agency rating though.

Another point that hasn't been brought up is the water used in your beer will play a role. I personally use RO water so I know I am starting with a pretty good foundation, but others may be using crappy water from the start and should consider those implications.

It probably would not be a bad idea to have beer tested. I personally put a few thousand $ into the hobby so far, why not spend a few more to know? Does Ward provide that kind of in depth analysis? If not, who does?

 

[Brad2287]

I think at this point, from what has been posted, the best evidence comes from the FDA guidance, and the bottom line is copper in the wort will kill the yeast before it becomes harmful to the consumer downstream. I would always be conservative with respect to any agency rating though.

Another point that hasn't been brought up is the water used in your beer will play a role. I personally use RO water so I know I am starting with a pretty good foundation, but others may be using crappy water from the start and should consider those implications.

It probably would not be a bad idea to have beer tested. I personally put a few thousand $ into the hobby so far, why not spend a few more to know? Does Ward provide that kind of in depth analysis? If not, who does?

Ward labs does appear to have the capabilities.

INDIVIDUAL WATER ANALYSIS Copper............................... $6.50

Any environmental testing labs should have the capabilities.

I have the abilities to run the AOAC official method 960.17 Copper in Beer Direct non ashing method. Unfortunately the reagents make this too expensive unless I were to run a lot of analysis.

 

[Turkeyshot]

If anyone worries about copper poisoning or ill effects of any kind from the use of copper in brewing then there is more for you to worry about. It has already been stated here that your water could be flowing through copper pipes, but if the water is not acidic then not much chance of leaching anything out from the pipes. But what about candy making where they use copper pots for cooking the batches of candy. Could there be a possibility of the high heat leaching anything from the copper. Even some smaller companies that make Belgian Candy Sugar use copper pots, so that would end up in some beers.

What I am getting at here is that the FDA report brought up earlier in this thread shows that the amount of copper that would have to be leached out in the brewing process, is not even enough to kill yeast and is way below a toxic threshold to humans. I personally am not worried about the use of copper at all and have no problem with a copper immersion chiller.

 

[Brad2287]

Even if you were to have the water analyzed it would be hard to contribute the copper content of your beer to only copper hardware pieces.

My municipality has 0.47 ppm copper in the water based on averages measured at peoples taps. I use RO Water so this would be a small fraction compared to the amount in the feed water.

Barley also has measurable amounts of copper. The methods they employed involved ashing followed by mineral analysis. It is hard to correlate the amount in barley to the amount in wort. We do not know what form the copper is in, whether it is water soluble, or whether it is extractable due to physical matrix limitations.

http://www.aaccnet.org/publications/cc/backissues/1975/Documents/chem52_678.pdf

http://www.aaccnet.org/publications/cc/backissues/1974/Documents/Chem51_309.pdf

Hops may also contribute a substantial amount of copper to wort. It appears several broad spectrum fungicides used on hops are copper based.

http://msue.anr.msu.edu/news/michigan_hop_update_july_31_2013

All yeast strains produce some amount of hydrogen sulfide. Copper ions react with hydrogen sulfide producing insoluble copper sulfide. I would expect that strains that are known to produce high levels of hydrogen sulfide would decrease the final copper concentration to a greater degree than other strains. I agree copper toxicity is well documented, but I am not going to worry about the small amount in my brewery until new evidence comes to light.

 

[UndeadFred]

I haven't followed this for a couple of days and I see people quoting Mercola as a valid source. Quack Quack. Well I suppose this is not as bad as an Aluminum kettle thread, but, seriously trace amounts of copper, lead and even asbestos are all over the place. What doesn't kill you makes you stronger. It is amazing that humans made it the last 5000 years with all of this bad stuff.

 

[hunter_le five]

And yet, proper dosage can be healthy for you

Often the difference between medicine and poison is the dose.


Much ado about nothing, I suspect.

 

[BrunDog]

... What doesn't kill you makes you stronger. It is amazing that humans made it the last 5000 years with all of this bad stuff.

Seriously? These are inane comments, like many you have made in this thread. You do know that only a few hundred years ago people only lived to about 35 years old. It's because science, medicine, and learning have taught us otherwise.

 

[Firewalker11]

Still not sure what all the debate is about. Botulism has killed millions yet is essential to life for some in well placed injections (not cosmetically). Arsenic is essential in foundries and asbestos is still widely used in friction linings.

 

[jddevinn]

Like every other water discussion I think the "answer" on whether copper needs removed from your system is system and maybe beer dependent. Send a sample out for analysis, if there is more copper than acceptable for safety it NEEDS to be removed. If there is more copper than acceptable for the style is probably SHOULD be removed.

 

[MaxStout]

If there is more copper than acceptable for the style is probably SHOULD be removed.

How do we know how much copper is acceptable for a particular style? Does the BJCP have guidelines on that?

 

[jddevinn]

How do we know how much copper is acceptable for a particular style? Does the BJCP have guidelines on that?

Data for inorganic components of beer on average per style from From Brewing Science and Practice Woodhead publishing 2004

Just for reference

Example, table sights several sources so more information could probably be found. Really I'm not concerned with copper at the moment, there are many other process improvements i could make

 

[BrunDog]

Still not sure what all the debate is about. Botulism has killed millions yet is essential to life for some in well placed injections (not cosmetically). Arsenic is essential in foundries and asbestos is still widely used in friction linings.

And radioactive uranium is needed for nuclear power plants!

Still, you don't eat any of these... clearly you really don't understand the debate.

 

[slym2none]

I threw a penny into the boil of my wort last night, and got attacked by six Al Quedas for my trouble.

 

[milldoggy]

I been debating on replacing my copper for a while as I been having some neuropathy issues and just trying to eliminate some factors(I know alchol is a neurotoxin). I currently have a chillzilla, does the stainless version work as well or close? Do the stainless counterflow convulated work at all?

 

[Firewalker11]

Sure I do, I understand classic knee jerking just fine. True to the debate, saccharin was banned decades ago then it was ruled to be safe once again.

The classic knee-jerk on any subject is to use a negative and make it universal so that one can beat their drum all around town.

There is, was and will be no evidence of copper or lead leaching in homebrewing, simply none of the criteria are met. No strong acids or base, no corrosion issues unless the brewer is grossly negligent.

The same is true of mercury in that as a liquid metal, it's correct/safe use has been proven to be very valuable over time.

In my opinion, this is all jack-jawing and not worth the 01's wasted to create the text.

Brew on my thirsty friends!

 

[specharka]

This thread makes my head hurt. There's always going to be some article (legitimate or not) you can cite to prove a connection between a perceived ailment and a chemical compound. It's useless trying to debate the subject because it's such a personally charged argument -- like trying to dispute purported findings from anti-vaxxers. They are going to listen to whatever idea which validates their personal beliefs and choices.

Regardless of whether or not copper has a negative impact on human anatomy as a part of the brewing process, I can promise one thing: the alcohol in beer is going to kill you much, much faster. So if you're seriously concerned about the health consequences of your homebrewing habits, you should probably forego brewing entirely.

 

[k-moe]

And radioactive uranium is needed for nuclear power plants!

Still, you don't eat any of these... clearly you really don't understand the debate.

It's much more likely that you'll be impacted by the negative effects of alcohol than you will by any negative effects of excess copper ingestion.
Once again...we live such a good life in developed nations that we end up worrying about crap that has already been proven to not have any significant negative effect on our health.

 

[skw]

Someone mentioned that malt contains some copper. Not only that it absorbs it from the soil, but in many countries copper salts are permitted as pesticide for organic farming.

 

[Stillraining]

However, you need to be aware that copper can develop a toxic blue-green oxide called verdigris. Verdigris includes several chemical compounds — cupric acetate, copper sulfate, cupric chloride, etc. — and these blue-green compounds should not be allowed to contact your beer or any other food item because they are readily soluble in weakly acidic solutions (like beer), and can lead to copper poisoning (i.e., nausea, vomiting). To clean heavy oxidation (black) and verdigris, use vinegar or oxalic acid-based cleansers like Revereware Copper and Stainless Steel cleanser.

Thanks for posting this FK....I had a batch that gave me an upset stomach drinking more then one.. and I actually tossed my cookies after drinking 2 1/2 beers of it. I blamed it on an over potent dose of star-san ( 5x the dose to be clear)...There was a small 2" long blue-green section on my copper IC that I brushed off prior to cooling but was not totally diligent on eradicating its underlying etching/tarnishing of the copper. This could have definitely been the cause of this problem from what you have posted here.
Im going to have to make a different way of storing my chiller so it doesn't just sit on a damp rag after cleaning and rinsing...maybe hang it to dry somewhere I guess.
Thanks Again mate!