Should I double or triple pitch a 1.085 OG batch?

[dyetube]

I have an Pliny clone that I pitched the Wyeast (American) - 1056 liquid smack pack in. I was reading the Wyeast FAQ (https://www.wyeastlab.com/frequently-asked-questions/?website=1#r204) and it says for beers at or above 1.085 OG, you should triple pitch yeast. Should I get two more smack packs and pitch them as well or just wait until fermentation stops and check gravity to determine if to pitch more yeast?

 

[angrybits]

For that I would have used two (or maybe 3?) packs of US-05. If you insist on the liquid version, a large starter would have been highly recommended. (You should *always* make a starter for all non-dried yeasts, honestly.) In the end, you'll make beer -- but you might get some esters from stressing out the yeast a bit. Chico seems to be pretty bulletproof in my experience, so I'd leave it alone and see how it turns out.

EDIT: Clarified a couple of points.

 

[dyetube]

So maybe check FG after fermentation slows and if it doesn't seem low enough, pitch more yeast and try to get more fermentation Maybe?

 

[Pkrd]

I'd chuck a pack of rehydrated US05 in there tomorrow.

 

[kh54s10]

The yeast will more than likely be able to ferment the high gravity wort. The problem comes from off flavors produced by stressed yeast while they reproduce to cell counts sufficient to ferment the wort. If the pitch was made more than 24 hours before you can add more yeast, I would let it go and hope for the best.

If you wanted an optimum pitch without making a starter I would use 3 packs for that beer.

Whenever using liquid yeast, make a starter. A starter allows you to pitch the right amount of cells with one pack and a couple dollars of DME instead of multiple packs of yeast at retail prices. That saves you money and you pitch fresh healthy yeast.

 

[dyetube]

"If the pitch was made more than 24 hours before you can add more yeast, I would let it go and hope for the best."

So don't pitch more yeast and wait and see if I have estery flavors or go ahead after 24 hours and throw in a us-05 pack? I can run to the homebrew store and grab one if need be.

 

[dyetube]

Also remember, I just pitched the liquid yeast without making a starter, so that may play into the equation as well.

 

[Omahawk]

"If the pitch was made more than 24 hours before you can add more yeast, I would let it go and hope for the best."

So don't pitch more yeast and wait and see if I have estery flavors or go ahead after 24 hours and throw in a us-05 pack? I can run to the homebrew store and grab one if need be.

I believe he/she is saying that if it's been less than 24 hours, pitch more now. Adding more yeast during this window may prevent the yeast from "over reproducing" (bad terminology) which occurs early in the fermentation cycle. More yeast early means less reproducing required

 

[dyetube]

I believe he/she is saying that if it's been less than 24 hours, pitch more now. Adding more yeast during this window may prevent the yeast from "over reproducing" (bad terminology) which occurs early in the fermentation cycle. More yeast early means less reproducing required

Gotcha. I pitched at around 9 pm last night so I'm gonna run up to the homebrew store and get more yeast.

 

[Omahawk]

Gotcha. I pitched at around 9 pm last night so I'm gonna run up to the homebrew store and get more yeast.

Cool. Good luck and report back.

 

[griffi]

For future batches above 1.055 OG I would highly recommend using a yeast starter calculator. I will frequently use brewers friend or mr. Malty. If you don't know how to make a yeast starter it's time to learn! Proper yeast pitching and wort oxygenation will drastically improve your beer!

 

[dyetube]

I didn't get to make it to LHBS, so I did not add any more yeast. Airlock is bubbling really well with about a 3 1/2 inch krausen on top so fermentation is definitely going well. I only wonder if the yeast cells will get stressed and give me some flavors I don't want in the beer.

If for some reason when I take a hydrometer reading when bubbling slows and krausen disappears and the FG is not as low as I think it should be, can I pitch more yeast and see if they convert more sugars to alcohol? From the way it's fermenting now, I think I'll come super close to hitting my FG.

 

[angrybits]

You'll almost certainly get some unexpected flavors, but I don't view them as an entirely negative thing. I would encourage you to simply put the lid back on it, let it finish, and then enjoy the beer you made for whatever it turns out to be.

 

[cloudybrewer]

The problem comes from off flavors produced by stressed yeast while they reproduce to cell counts sufficient to ferment the wort.

I believe he/she is saying that if it's been less than 24 hours, pitch more now. Adding more yeast during this window may prevent the yeast from "over reproducing" (bad terminology) which occurs early in the fermentation cycle. More yeast early means less reproducing required

Correct me, here, but I thought the length of the reproductive cycle was a function of available oxygen, not available food (assuming plenty of food). Meaning, the yeast reproduce until the oxygen is used up; they don't "decide" how many cells are needed to eat all the food. If they could do that on their own in the fermentation vessel, we wouldn't ever need to make a starter. Right?

 

[mirthfuldragon]

I would let it ride at this point. I just bottled a pliny clone using Omega 004 (the same strain as 1056) and the fermentation was roiling - the activity in the wort was almost like a boil. If you used a recipe anything similar to the clone recipe here from Vinnie, if you can pick up any of the off flavors over how intensely hoppy it is, then your palate is a lot better than mine. I have no words for just how hoppy that beer is - if hops were lava than your mouth would be Vesuvius in AD 79 (which was written about from an eye witness account of Pliny the Younger!).

Making starters is easy. Get a 3L flask off Amazon or whatever (with a stopper and airlock for <$15). Boil 100g/L (so 150g for 1.5L) of DME in water for 10 min or so (watch it - it will boil over very, very, very easily). Cover the top with some sanitized aluminium foil and let cool. Shake the wort to aerate, pitch your yeast, put it in a dark place for 24-36 hours, and voila, yeast starter. I add a tiny bit of yeast nutrient, but that's just me.

My last batch, I started with a 2L starter, poured half that into a sanitized mason jar 24 hours later, topped off the flask another jar of fresh wort, and let that go another 36 hours. Pitched 2/3 to pliny and the other 1/3 to a second running/dme hybrid table-strength "jr" version of pliny. So, long story short: 5oz of DME plus 1 yeast pack + 3 days = 4 packs of yeast. It just requires to foresight to start "brewing" on Thursday for Sunday brews.

 

[dyetube]

I would let it ride at this point. I just bottled a pliny clone using Omega 004 (the same strain as 1056) and the fermentation was roiling - the activity in the wort was almost like a boil. If you used a recipe anything similar to the clone recipe here from Vinnie, if you can pick up any of the off flavors over how intensely hoppy it is, then your palate is a lot better than mine. I have no words for just how hoppy that beer is - if hops were lava than your mouth would be Vesuvius in AD 79 (which was written about from an eye witness account of Pliny the Younger!).

Making starters is easy. Get a 3L flask off Amazon or whatever (with a stopper and airlock for <$15). Boil 100g/L (so 150g for 1.5L) of DME in water for 10 min or so (watch it - it will boil over very, very, very easily). Cover the top with some sanitized aluminium foil and let cool. Shake the wort to aerate, pitch your yeast, put it in a dark place for 24-36 hours, and voila, yeast starter. I add a tiny bit of yeast nutrient, but that's just me.

My last batch, I started with a 2L starter, poured half that into a sanitized mason jar 24 hours later, topped off the flask another jar of fresh wort, and let that go another 36 hours. Pitched 2/3 to Pliny and the other 1/3 to a second running/dme hybrid table-strength "jr" version of Pliny. So, long story short: 5oz of DME plus 1 yeast pack + 3 days = 4 packs of yeast. It just requires to foresight to start "brewing" on Thursday for Sunday brews.

The kit I purchased is the official from morebeer.com which is the only one Vinnie authorizes, so I understand (I'll have to look for the recipe on here as well). The interesting thing is, it came with two ounces of whole leaf cascade hops that you steep in the first 30 minutes with the specialty grains (extract) or add to the mash for 60 in the AG version. I haven't seen any other clones that have that.

My fermentation seems to be going quite well and looking at the wort itself, looks like the wort is at a boil too so the yeasties are doing their thing! Plus I have plenty of krausen. My bubbles are popping about 1 every half second as well.

Someone earlier just mentioned that the yeasts may try and overwork themselves during fermentation and that might give me some off flavors I don't want. Would that be the case or would they just not ferment to a low enough FG and I'd obtain less alcohol. AND, could I at that point of discovery, pitch more yeast to try and ferment more sugars?

 

[mirthfuldragon]

Someone earlier just mentioned that the yeasts may try and overwork themselves during fermentation and that might give me some off flavors I don't want. Would that be the case or would they just not ferment to a low enough FG and I'd obtain less alcohol. AND, could I at that point of discovery, pitch more yeast to try and ferment more sugars?

At 9.5% ABV you are still under the yeast's alcohol tolerance by a decent bit (11% tolerance); the yeast will continue to until either the alcohol kills them or they run out of food or just get old and die without the necessary elements to breed a new generation. Fermentation might take longer because there are less yeast to work with. Yeast metabolism is complicated and I don't even begin to understand it.

Personally, I would RDWHAHB. Or get another packet and pitch that if you are so inclined. Or get another packet, begin a starter, and in a couple of days pitch half the starter and save the other half for next brew.

Between the borderline-irresponsible amount of hops in that beer and how clean and vigorous the chico strain is, I don't think you're going to be able to detect any significant off flavors.

Put it this way: there was noticeable roiling activity in the bottles on just the priming sugar. No joke. Holding a bottle up to a light after 10 days conditioning, there was a great deal of tossed up sediment and movement in the bottle. Chilling settled it all down though.

Side note: If you value clean beer without hop floaties, cold crash the beer for longer than you think, or maybe cold crash, rack to secondary (yeah, I know . .. ) and then cold crash the secondary. I didn't secondary, but cold crash for four days at 34°, was careful bottling, and still have floaties in my bottles.

 

[plazola86]

What's done is done. I wouldn't pitch more yeast after this ones done. Pitching fresh yeast on something that's fermented already hardly ever works. There is alcohol present and the yeast before already ate all the simple sugars making it a really hard place for the new yeast to grow. If you can start letting the temperature rise on the fermenting wort so it could finish off strong and start cleaning up off flavors.

 

[Morrey]

All of the yeast pitching advice you are getting on this thread is very accurate and important to the quality of your finished beer. Pitching the proper amount of yeast (cell count) is pretty easy once you take a look at some of the online yeast calculators. Under pitching is common especially when using liquid yeasts, and off flavors typically result from stressed out yeast from under pitching. I used to think well....I am making beer just like you are now making beer....but is it the best beer you can make? You'll be the judge.

BTW....over pitching can be equally detrimental. The budding or blooming growth phase can become lethargic and green apple tasting flavors may develop.

Long story short...invest some time to learn proper pitch rates and your beers will be premium. All part of learning.

 

[dyetube]

What's done is done. I wouldn't pitch more yeast after this ones done. Pitching fresh yeast on something that's fermented already hardly ever works. There is alcohol present and the yeast before already ate all the simple sugars making it a really hard place for the new yeast to grow. If you can start letting the temperature rise on the fermenting wort so it could finish off strong and start cleaning up off flavors.

It's been at around 67 since Friday night at 9 pm. what should I set the temps at now? should I go as high as 70°? I've got lot's of activity going on and don't want to mess that up.

 

[dyetube]

All of the yeast pitching advice you are getting on this thread is very accurate and important to the quality of your finished beer. Pitching the proper amount of yeast (cell count) is pretty easy once you take a look at some of the online yeast calculators. Under pitching is common especially when using liquid yeasts, and off flavors typically result from stressed out yeast from under pitching. I used to think well....I am making beer just like you are now making beer....but is it the best beer you can make? You'll be the judge.

BTW....over pitching can be equally detrimental. The budding or blooming growth phase can become lethargic and green apple tasting flavors may develop.

Long story short...invest some time to learn proper pitch rates and your beers will be premium. All part of learning.

I honestly didn't expect an OG of 1.085. The kit said 1.070 to 1.075. It wasn't until I read on the Wyeast pages FAQ that I read that a beer with an OG of 1.085 or higher should use more smack packs. I read somewhere that a 1.085 to 1.090 OG should need around 250 Million yeast cells which would indicate 3 packs.

 

[Morrey]

I honestly didn't expect an OG of 1.085. The kit said 1.070 to 1.075. It wasn't until I read on the Wyeast pages FAQ that I read that a beer with an OG of 1.085 or higher should use more smack packs. I read somewhere that a 1.085 to 1.090 OG should need around 250 Million yeast cells which would indicate 3 packs.

Keep in mind that Wyeast is in the business to sell yeast....naturally they will tell you to buy 3 packs instead of making a simple starter.

Building a simple starter is a very quick and effective way to bring your cell count to the desired pitch rate. It is well worth the time to look into making a starter...it is one of my favorite parts of brewing. Enjoy.

 

[dyetube]

Keep in mind that Wyeast is in the business to sell yeast....naturally they will tell you to buy 3 packs instead of making a simple starter.

Building a simple starter is a very quick and effective way to bring your cell count to the desired pitch rate. It is well worth the time to look into making a starter...it is one of my favorite parts of brewing. Enjoy.

True. I need to begin making starters as it's really not that hard. I haven't brewed in over 8 years and before that only brewed three beers that were fairly low OG and used dry yeast.

 

[plazola86]

It's been at around 67 since Friday night at 9 pm. what should I set the temps at now? should I go as high as 70°? I've got lot's of activity going on and don't want to mess that up.

As soon as activity starts slowing down I would set the temp at 70 and let it free rise and let it sit there until you cold crash or ready to bottle/keg. It will probably start slowing down tomorrow, my beers usually ferment out in three days but I pitch a healthy starter and they're never over 1.070 OG.

 

[dyetube]

As soon as activity starts slowing down I would set the temp at 70 and let it free rise and let it sit there until you cold crash or ready to bottle/keg. It will probably start slowing down tomorrow, my beers usually ferment out in three days but I pitch a healthy starter and they're never over 1.070 OG.

I have a dry hopping addition so I'll be going to a secondary. I praying that the big dry hopping addition will help to cover up some of the ester aromas I'm probably going to get.

I may take a sample once fermentation slows down. Also it would give me a good hydrometer reading to see how well the yeasties are doing. Today fermentation is going very strong and I expect it still will be for a couple of more days least considering the OG of 1.085.

 

[plazola86]

I have a dry hopping addition so I'll be going to a secondary. I praying that the big dry hopping addition will help to cover up some of the ester aromas I'm probably going to get.

I may take a sample once fermentation slows down. Also it would give me a good hydrometer reading to see how well the yeasties are doing. Today fermentation is going very strong and I expect it still will be for a couple of more days least considering the OG of 1.085.

Honestly I wouldn't worry about the ester production. With that big of an IPA you wont taste anything but the hops.

*Off Topic* I'm in Allen. I just brewed a milkshake IPA this weekend, we should meet up and share some homebrew.

 

[dyetube]

Honestly I wouldn't worry about the ester production. With that big of an IPA you wont taste anything but the hops.

*Off Topic* I'm in Allen. I just brewed a milkshake IPA this weekend, we should meet up and share some homebrew.

Yes! I Only have the beer in the primary so no other beers to share (other than commercial stuff) but I plan on brewing MUCH more. PM me your contact info.

 

[dyetube]

You should use this website. A very informative site that will help you get started in brewing beer.

2gallonbrewery.com

Take your spam elsewhere. You've been reported.

 

[kh54s10]

It's been at around 67 since Friday night at 9 pm. what should I set the temps at now? should I go as high as 70°? I've got lot's of activity going on and don't want to mess that up.

No, I would keep it at 67 or possibly even lower until all signs of fermentation have stopped. Then you can let it rise to be sure that the fermentation is fully finished.

There are cases where you might want to go outside the optimum temperature range to get certain flavors, but, IMO that is an advanced technique. If you don't know the character the yeast will produce by doing so you may have adverse results.

 

[kh54s10]

I honestly didn't expect an OG of 1.085. The kit said 1.070 to 1.075. It wasn't until I read on the Wyeast pages FAQ that I read that a beer with an OG of 1.085 or higher should use more smack packs. I read somewhere that a 1.085 to 1.090 OG should need around 250 Million yeast cells which would indicate 3 packs.

If this was an extract kit that used top up water your OG probably was 1.070 to 1.075. It is very common to get false readings by not getting a thorough mix of the heavier wort and lighter water. The reading would have come from a higher gravity layer.

But even still it really should have had a starter or multiple packs. IMO, every 5 gallon batch that is 1.040 or over should get a starter. Even more so if the yeast is not really fresh.

 

[kh54s10]

Correct me, here, but I thought the length of the reproductive cycle was a function of available oxygen, not available food (assuming plenty of food). Meaning, the yeast reproduce until the oxygen is used up; they don't "decide" how many cells are needed to eat all the food. If they could do that on their own in the fermentation vessel, we wouldn't ever need to make a starter. Right?

I am not sure whether it is the oxygen or the "food" but it is my understanding that if there are not enough cells, they reproduce. If there is a lot of reproduction that is where the off flavors occur. If there are enough cells pitched initially they will spend more energy fermenting the wort (less lag time) and less reproducing. Thus less chance of off flavors.

It is all in degrees. I strive to give my beers the best chance to be great. So, I always pitch enough yeast, rehydrate dry yeast, control fermentation temperatures etc.

If you ignore these principles you will have beer. If you follow them your good beer could be great.

 

[dyetube]

If this was an extract kit that used top up water your OG probably was 1.070 to 1.075. It is very common to get false readings by not getting a thorough mix of the heavier wort and lighter water. The reading would have come from a higher gravity layer.

But even still it really should have had a starter or multiple packs. IMO, every 5 gallon batch that is 1.040 or over should get a starter. Even more so if the yeast is not really fresh.

I thought about about that as well. I poured the wort in the fermentor first and the topped off with water so no mixing was done (my mistake). I drew my sample from below that so It could have been 1.070-1.075 on OG. I went ahead and bought a 5 gallon brew kettle so next time in a couple of weeks, I won't have the top of issue.

 

[dyetube]

I am not sure whether it is the oxygen or the "food" but it is my understanding that if there are not enough cells, they reproduce. If there is a lot of reproduction that is where the off flavors occur. If there are enough cells pitched initially they will spend more energy fermenting the wort (less lag time) and less reproducing. Thus less chance of off flavors.

It is all in degrees. I strive to give my beers the best chance to be great. So, I always pitch enough yeast, rehydrate dry yeast, control fermentation temperatures etc.

If you ignore these principles you will have beer. If you follow them your good beer could be great.

What I read from the American Homebrewers Association is that if you pitch too little yeast, they have to work harder to convert the sugars to alcohol and that is what produces the unwanted esters (except in a good Hefe!). The (hopefully) lucky part for me on this beer is, it has a CRAP TON of hops in it. Not just bittering, but late additions and dry hopping:

(all hops are pellets except Cascade)
Steeped: 2 oz whole leaf Cascade for 30 min.
Bittering: 2 oz Magnum at 60 min.
flavor: 1 oz Simcoe at 45 and 1 oz Columbus at 30
aroma: 1 oz Simcoe and 2 oz Centennial at flameout
dry hops: 3 oz Columbus, 1 oz Centennial and 1 oz Simcoe.

I'm thinking with the amount of hops in this thing, the esters will only be faint and not too pronounced. I'm sure they will be there though.

 

[kh54s10]

As to the hop additions. Bittering is most at 60 minutes. Your addition of Simcoe will produce mostly bittering from it and a little flavor. The Columbus at 30 minutes will contribute about half bittering and half flavor. Most of your flavor and aroma are coming from the flameout and dry hop additions. I rarely do anything these days other than a 60 minute bittering addition and the rest at 15 minute or later.

Early additions add mostly to bittering. Middle additions split bittering and flavor. Late additions give aroma and flavor. Dry hop mostly aroma and some flavor.

 

[angrybits]

I read somewhere that a 1.085 to 1.090 OG should need around 250 Million yeast cells which would indicate 3 packs.

Viability tanks rather quickly in liquid yeast, especially depending on the handling of it during transport. This means you cannot reliably estimate cell count on a per-package basis, short of firing up a hemocytometer. It is for this reason that you should *always* make a starter for anything other than dry yeast, no matter how low the gravity is. For me personally, I stopped using liquid entirely due to not wanting to run a micro lab in my basement.

 

[xpops]

I have a dry hopping addition so I'll be going to a secondary.

There's no need in this case to go to a secondary. i would just dry hop in your primary. limit oxidization and infection risks. cold crash it after dry hopping and transfer to packaging! 1 less step needed.

 

[kh54s10]

Viability tanks rather quickly in liquid yeast, especially depending on the handling of it during transport. This means you cannot reliably estimate cell count on a per-package basis, short of firing up a hemocytometer. It is for this reason that you should *always* make a starter for anything other than dry yeast, no matter how low the gravity is. For me personally, I stopped using liquid entirely due to not wanting to run a micro lab in my basement.

Why give up on a lot of varieties of yeast that you cannot get in dry form? There is no need for a lab. Just use the production date, make the starter, and brew. Brewing beer is not an exact science. Most yeast calculators err on the high side anyway. I doubt anyone has ever pitched the exact amount of yeast cells. Especially since that is an impossibility since intentionally under or over pitching to create a particular profile is often done.

 

[angrybits]

Why give up on a lot of varieties of yeast that you cannot get in dry form? There is no need for a lab. Just use the production date, make the starter, and brew. Brewing beer is not an exact science. Most yeast calculators err on the high side anyway. I doubt anyone has ever pitched the exact amount of yeast cells. Especially since that is an impossibility since intentionally under or over pitching to create a particular profile is often done.

Dry yeast has sufficient variety these days, especially once you start to learn to manipulate all of the variables of your brewhouse (both hot and cold side) to coax out the desired qualities of your finished beer. Couple that with the repeatable nature of its performance due to superior packaging and I can't justify the time and money spent dealing with liquid yeasts (yeast, equipment, consumables).

 

[kh54s10]

Dry yeast has sufficient variety these days, especially once you start to learn to manipulate all of the variables of your brewhouse (both hot and cold side) to coax out the desired qualities of your finished beer. Couple that with the repeatable nature of its performance due to superior packaging and I can't justify the time and money spent dealing with liquid yeasts (yeast, equipment, consumables).

OK, we disagree.

I find that while I use a lot of dry yeast. There are strains that I want to use that you cannot get dry.

I also feel that properly prepared liquid yeast is just as good if not superior to dry.

It is certainly repeatable.

I also enjoy the process of preparing liquid yeast.

On top of that I freeze samples of liquid yeast. I have about 15 varieties in stock. I make 4 vials from the initial purchase. If I made 4 new vials from each use of one of those vials, for 4 generations, I could brew 256 batches from one pack of liquid yeast.

You could also do this by collecting yeast from a dry yeast fermentation and freeze then re-use..

So far I haven't used my yeast bank up to potential but if I did I could have a larger variety of yeasts at a far smaller cost than buying dry yeast every time.

 

[dyetube]

There's no need in this case to go to a secondary. i would just dry hop in your primary. limit oxidization and infection risks. cold crash it after dry hopping and transfer to packaging! 1 less step needed.

If I dry hop in primary, my beer will be cloudy as hell as there is about 2 inches of trub in the primary. Without moving to a secondary fermentor, how do I clarify the beer? I'm okay with keeping in primary and dry hopping there as long as I can make the beer more clear for when I bottle.