My homebrew sensei and I are at a lets say disagreeance. We are entering a local Ipa competition and he says we should enter our all grain ipa in two categories extract and all grain b/c the judges will score the beer higher in the extract than the all grain just to kind of pull the wool over their eyes, not so much to trick them but as he says "they should know the difference" . I say the judges are there with your parameters to judge with the info you have given them. If I am NFL wr and play in pee wee football of course i'm gonna look good. Then I said why even enter it if you are gonna lie, your just gonna fool yourself. Where do you guys stand on this issue. what is the law of the land?
Serious MORAL dilemma
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buzzkill
Well-Known Member
karma going ta get cha. good or bad. and some "win" wont make a rats ### if you are shaddy.
arturo7
Well-Known Member
AG category only. Is your sensei that desperate for validation?
zanemoseley
Well-Known Member
Somebody has small man syndrome huh. Is this guy really that sad or just pathetically eager to win a medal?
If you don't have integrity, you don't have nothing. Are you sure you want to keep your sensei? Maybe it's time you graduated.
ArtVandelay
Well-Known Member
Who says it will even do well in Extract anyway? Just because it is AG and all extract sucks?
motobrewer
I'm no atheist scientist, but...
^ I agree.
I think the whole AG = NFL and extract = pee wee football analogy is just wrong.
while i don't think you should enter it as an extract, there's nothing saying that it will do any better.
i think submitting an extract beer as an AG would be less morally wrong and more of an experiment
I think the whole AG = NFL and extract = pee wee football analogy is just wrong.
while i don't think you should enter it as an extract, there's nothing saying that it will do any better.
i think submitting an extract beer as an AG would be less morally wrong and more of an experiment
Beer medals really mean nothing... except to the winner. As such, if you were to win with this little bit of under-handedness, it ruins the whole experience.
If you don't have your integrity, you don't have a whole lot. That you even posted the question here tells me you know the answer.
And...you should provide some ethical guidance to your "sensei."
And...you should provide some ethical guidance to your "sensei."
smizak
Well-Known Member
Exactly.
You should respect the judging and competition philosophy of homebrewing. We're here to help you make better beer, not for you to let us know how much more you know than we do. Be honest.
sirsloop
Well-Known Member
How are you gonna feel if you win extract with an AG beer?
funkapottomous
Well-Known Member
seriously, you wouldn't be asking if you didn't see anything wrong with it.
+1!!!
How are you or your 'sensei' going to learn anything by being dishonest? Isn't part of entering a competition (which I have never done, by the way) about getting feedback from people who have some experience with tasting and judging beer? What philosophy about homebrewing is being subscribed to by this idea?
If any of these questions require a lot of thought, you have your answer.
Doc Robinson
Well-Known Member
I don't think so. I would think that you were either a retard, a pedophile, or an assh*ole.
Brew AG, enter AG.
bsteele
Active Member
Just buy an IPA and peel off the label. They'll never know *shhhhhh*
I kid, I kid.
I kid, I kid.
Or, if you didn't win.. oops... bummer.
FlashRedGLS18T
Well-Known Member
It's all been said. AG to be judged as an AG.
Baldy_Beer_Brewery
Well-Known Member
You need a new brew partner.
Edcculus
Well-Known Member
Just out of curiosity, what comp is this? I don't claim to be all knowing about comps, but I've just never heard of one with categories for AG and extract. Whtats the point?
ajwillys
Well-Known Member
Cheating is not winning.
Best answer.
Oh, and this is no moral dilemma like Sophies' Choice or something. To cheat or not to cheat?
I've never ever seen a comp with separate cats for extract and AG. Now you can make some mighty fine extract beer, just as good as AG if you know what you are doing. However, not only are you CHEATING by breaking a very obviously important rule, you are going to get incorrect feedback which might prove useful for improving your beer.
Things in life are rarely ever Black and White, but in this case I think there IS a Black and a White.
Things in life are rarely ever Black and White, but in this case I think there IS a Black and a White.
shortyjacobs
Well-Known Member
I thought the whole idea of a competition was to learn how good your beer really by other people's judgements, not to see if you can fool the judges....
Cool.
Cool.
And that's the rub huh? The aspect of dishonesty. Your gut is spot on.
This is what I suggest:
Tell him he is free to enter his IPA under his name only in any category he pleases (all by himself), but you will stick with your gut.
That's what I'd do anyway.
Here's why:
Once someone labels you with a negative such as "dishonest" you will not likely ever recover from it.
I understand the part about him claiming that it won't fool any one, but he mere fact of falsely entering the brew in the wrong category is cheating whether or not you actually fool any one and cheating is dishonest.
You run the very serious rick of shooting your reputation in both feet.
And not for nothin' but the people who enter contests and do the judging are most always taking themselves, the contest, and their personal efforts very seriously. It's simply not the place for "gotch-ya fooled-ya" type horsing around.
beerjunky828
Well-Known Member
To me personally, I could care less. I mean if you want to do it then do it. yOu probably won't gain any useful criticism for the beer being entered as an extract. I mean cheating the judges will cause what?? your beer to be scored higher than most extract brews. Who knows, the AG IPA might get beat by a better extract brew and then it will prove that you can make stellar beer from extract. That is about the only thing I would gain from this experience if you were to place 2nd or 3rd or not at all. I don't think it makes him an a**hole, it just makes him not want to become a better brewer.
BlueSunshine
Well-Known Member
i think submitting an extract beer as an AG would be less morally wrong and more of an experiment
I'm honestly curious if the judges would be able to tell the difference. I'd like to see someone do that just as a goof.
funkapottomous
Well-Known Member
remilard
Well-Known Member
It is certainly interesting and informative to have ringers judged in competitions (and it happens all the time), but it should be done with the knowledge of the competition organizer. Violating the rules of the competition is so clearly wrong that I am surprised there can be any discussion.
Sigafoos
Well-Known Member
Competitions have separate AG and extract categories? Beer is beer.
It reminds me of a South Park episode where Cartman entered the paralympics because he thought he could win easily against handicaped persons. (I'm an extract brewer, so I do not consider extract brewer to be handicaped, don't get me wrong, but that seems to be how the so-call sensei think.)
But then he failed. And it was very funny.
But then he failed. And it was very funny.
Yankeehillbrewer
Well-Known Member
I think it would be interesting to see if Judges can tell the difference, but obviously a Competition is not the place for that. Unless you can get a few of them together after for some kind of blind taste test. But in the end it doesn't really matter. Like others have said, you already know what to do, your just looking for validation.
And yeah, get a new brew partner.
And yeah, get a new brew partner.
thanks for all the good info it seems to be the census that he is in fact a clown in this aspect. The way I look at it-enter a beer to the best of your knowledge with the ingredients you know of and done deal right. I myself have only entered one competition with one beer and it scored a 29,30,31 over three judges and I really thought it was interesting (the score sheet from the judges) they gave great insight and it was just cool ya know? I enjoy it bc it seems like a lot of people like my beer in general so criticism is nice. He seems to just be against judging, I don't know. I know it is all in the eye of the beholder and there is no official scale to judge by. I once heard a story of these fine wine aficionados who kept this very expensive bottle of wine for a long time aging for their anniversary. When their anniversary was upon them they opened it and "ohh how amazing it was" . They wrote about how great the bottle was giving rave reviews and lots of points. To their dismay they noticed the next time in the cellar that they had opened not their thousands of dollar bottle but a readily available $20 bottle. The mind can play tricks. Thanks for the great replies.
MY NAME IS ONLY GOING ON TRUTHFUL ENTRIES! DONE DEAL
MY NAME IS ONLY GOING ON TRUTHFUL ENTRIES! DONE DEAL
you won't regret doing the right thing.
l1ranger
Well-Known Member
Good job, Grasshopper. You have passed your first test!
In order to pass your next exam, you must ship a case of your IPA to me.
In order to pass your next exam, you must ship a case of your IPA to me.
Sigafoos
Well-Known Member
Oh, judging is SO subjective. Anyone who tells you differently is a liar. There have been plenty of studies showing that the stated cost affects perceived quality. But if he doesn't like judges then enter the lottery or something.
And to be clear: I think it's fine to enter a beer into more than one category (oatmeal stout/dry & sweet, etc), and -- if the competition says it's okay -- more than one beer into a category. But if it's an extract only one (like, say, my club's COC in May /plug) and you enter an AG then you're a *********.
Edit: so many censored words on the site, and yet dbag is fine
And to be clear: I think it's fine to enter a beer into more than one category (oatmeal stout/dry & sweet, etc), and -- if the competition says it's okay -- more than one beer into a category. But if it's an extract only one (like, say, my club's COC in May /plug) and you enter an AG then you're a *********.
Edit: so many censored words on the site, and yet dbag is fine
remilard
Well-Known Member
There are a lot of competitions.
You may be interested in knowing that, beer being beer and all, Imperial IPAs are judged separately from Imperial Stouts.
All other beers are grouped together and assigned a score of zero.
Wait, I thought we were on BA for a second.
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