screwed up beer laws

[homebrewer_99]

Also if you are 51 or older, and marry someone under 21, I envy you very much.

Sounds like a good recipe for a heart attack, but what a way to go....

 

[McCall St. Brewer]

You're right, Kornkob, I guess they are local ordinances. They still rest on dubious logic, though.

 

[McCall St. Brewer]

Agreed. The 21-years-old law actually CREATES alcholics in this country. We have this forbidden liquid that we can't consume.... We wait and wait and wait and wait for our 21st birthday. When it finally arrives....?

We binge drink and get totally hammered.

We then repeat this rediculous behavior over and over and over. Soon, we are binge drinking and dependent on the stuff.
-walker

Excellent point. The drinking age, at least for beer, should be no higher than 18, possibly even 16. That way parents could teach their children to drink responsibly. Can you imagine what it would be like if the driving age were increased to 19 or 21? Teenagers would get ahold of cars and drive them without a license, and... since it would be an illicit act, do you think they would drive responsibly? No way.

 

[Fudd]

Over here you can drink when you are 18 as well and you can by beer from corner stores, and grocery stores until 11:00pm. Lots of selection and plenty of really good micro breweries. You can buy beer until 3:00am at a bar or restaurant but then you have to take a break until 8:00am. You aren't aloud to drink and drive though...(which apparently you can still do in one state, Mississippi I think?)

 

[ScottT]

Folks, I'm not that old at 43 but, when I was 18 years old, I was at legal drinking age. Not only that, you could drink while driving. More than once I waived at a state trouper with a tall boy in my hand. I went away for 8 years while serving in the USAF and things changed back here big time.

Everything from open container laws and 21 drinking age to very restrictive laws on knives and guns. I came back to a much different world than I left.

I grew up in a dry county. It was 15 miles to the county line on a winding Farm to Market road. Every year I was in High School, we lost 1 or 2 due to accidents on that road. They have since mad the county legal for off premises sales and the teen accident fatalities have gone down.

Kids are going to drink. I agree with the lower drinking age of 16, 17, or 18. I allowed my daughters to drink occasionally in the home on special days like 4 th of July, New Years Eve, ect. They were allowed to taste what ever I was drinking if they asked. I'm of the opinion that if it isn't a mystery or a forbidden fruit, the allure is not so strong as to cause reckless behavior. They had a good example of responsible drinking and I talked to them about it. My oldest is in her 3rd year of University and does not have a drinking or drug problem. My youngest is a senior in High School and is currently at the top of her class scholastically. Yes, I'm proud of them.

Laws can be wrong, many are.

 

[kornkob]

You aren't aloud to drink and drive though...(which apparently you can still do in one state, Mississippi I think?)

I believe that between MADD and the federal government using highway money to strongarm states into doing their bidding everyone now has a 21 year old drinking age, fairly stiff DWI penalties and no open container driving.


But I could be wrong. Maybe some state held out against the fed's "you can't get no highway money 'less you pass laws that match our desires" gambit.

Wisconsin held out against the threat initially when the fed was looking to change the drinking age to 21. The logic at the time was that we'd lose as much revenue from our fairly hefty booze tax by dropping the age as we'd lose from the fed. Between a governer who was all for paving as much of Wisconsin as possible and a strong, self righteous MADD movement WI finally caved to pressure to raise it to 21.

IMHO, when WI raised it to 19 that was reasonable. That limited high school exposure to alcohol (limited, not prevent) and I can see some vlaue in that since 18 year old high school kids have regular access to 14 year old high school kids. Add booze to the mix and there's potential not just for substance abuse but people abuse. There are far fewer situations where 19 year old kids have access to 14 year old kids.

Not entirely logical but I can concede the reasoning.

And as far as I am concerned, anyone carrying an ID identifying them as a member of or former member of any US branch of military service should be able to drink whatever they damn well please, thank you very much. If you are old enough to kill people at the behest of the United States you oughta be able to drink here.

The fact that there isn't an exemption for service members to drink is probably one of the top 10 stupidest omissions in alcohol related regulations. When I have had myself appointed Overlord of the United States for Life (as is part of my 5 year plan for world domination) that is one of the laws that will be changed in the first quarter.

 

[El Pistolero]

When I have had myself appointed Overlord of the United States for Life (as is part of my 5 year plan for world domination) that is one of the laws that will be changed in the first quarter.

I was Overlord of the United States for Life for a little while once...it's not all it's cracked up to be.

 

[david_42]

Judging from my conversations at the local pizza place with some of the high school students, it is common for kids in rural Oregron to start drinking at 12 or 13. One girl celebrated her 17th birthday in the country "live sober" program. After she got back, she said that the 21 days in the program was the longest period that she had been without a drink since she was 10.

I really don't think the 21 laws do much, except make kids think that drinking is grown up. My introduction to beer was a can of warm Hamm's on a hot, humid Illinois summer day. I was about 8 & Tom Oltman's father thought it would be funny to give Tom, Larry & I each a can. Sure was, didn't touch the stuff again until I was 19.

 

[McCall St. Brewer]

IMHO, when WI raised it to 19 that was reasonable. That limited high school exposure to alcohol (limited, not prevent) and I can see some vlaue in that since 18 year old high school kids have regular access to 14 year old high school kids. Add booze to the mix and there's potential not just for substance abuse but people abuse. There are far fewer situations where 19 year old kids have access to 14 year old kids.

Not entirely logical but I can concede the reasoning.

I guess I agree with you on that. When I was in high school the legal age was 18. While I was happy about that, a lot of parents were not. I occasionally drank starting at 16. Things were a lot different then. There were bars that didn't care and we certainly knew which ones would serve us. Some parents would even hold huge beer parties for their kids when they turned 18 and you can bet many of the people drinking there were under-age. A 19 year old drinking age does tend to eliminate the access for 14-16 year olds.

21 to me makes no sense. You mention the military issue-- anyone who can be sent to die for our country should sure be able to drink. Almost as ridiculous to me is the idea that college students can't legally drink until probably their junior year. If you send your kids away to live in another town to go to school, aren't they adults?

 

[subwyking]

I would think the laws in OK have a lot to do with curbing alcoholism among the Native Americans.

i know this is kinda late, but being a native american from oklahoma who lived on the rez' a time or two, i saw more alcoholism in redneck cowboys. dont get me wrong there were native drunks too, but more so with the potato chip wearin cowpokes. just my observation.

 

[david_42]

Oregon [AKA beervana] has two really annoying laws. All bottled (and most kegs) alcoholic beverages are required to go through distributers. This is called the three-tier law. Makes for a nice fat profit of the distributers for d@mn-all and jacks the prices up for everyone. Really hurts the small operators. The other amazed me. You have to fill out four pages of paperwork to buy a keg, then they put a tracking number on it! In theory, the blue-noses know exactly who has purchased kegs, how many and when.

Another involves getting bottle labels approved. Mark at Golden Valley explained this to me once, but as I was sampling his Black Panther Imperial Stout and making comparisons between the pre-aged and the merlot cask-aged and the bottled and ... I forget. But, the point was, it was such a hassle to get labels approved that sometimes he just sells unlabeled bottles at the brewery.

No wonder there are so many brewpubs.

 

[user 574]

In Wisconsin we have some of the least restrictive beer and liquor laws around, but that does not mean we are immune to some dumb ones. Not too many years ago they decided that no take-out liquor could be sold after 9 P.M. (you can still drink it in a bar or restaurant after 9. You just can't buy it and take it with you). Now, how that helps anyone is beyond me.

Where I live (Milwaukee) some of the suburbs allow supermarkets to have liquor departments right in the store, while other neighboring suburbs make them have a separate liquor store with it's own entrance (apparently a person is much less likely to become an alcoholic if they have to put their groceries in their car and then go back into the store to buy their liquor).

Being from MKE originally I remember all these rules. The 9p thing was so stupid but you could still purchase from a bar if they offered. So, what's the 9p take-out changed to (for my next family visit so I know).

 

[cowain]

In AR, we have a new keg registration law (in additional to our plethora of ridiculous alchohol laws which I won't go into). It is meant to ensure kegs don't get into the hands of minors, but due to the idiocy of our legislature, not only does it fail at its goal, it also makes everyone a criminal under the law.

It requires additional deposits for a keg and the keg has to be tagged with registration paperwork that shows who bought it and where from. The problem is that the paperwork that is attached is attached with a plastic zip tie, so if you bought a keg for a minor, you would just cut it off.

Additionally, the law makes it illegal for anyone to have an unregistered keg. Not a bad idea, but the law goes on to define a keg as any vessel which may hold 5 gallons or more of liquid. The definition of keg has nothing to do with its purpose being to hold beer or alcohol. Therefore, everyone with a gas tank, water heater, bathtub, etc. has now violated the act by possessing an unlicensed keg. Thank you legislature and MADD.

 

[FilJos]

In Minnesota, a liquor store can't be open on sundays or after 8pm Mon-Wed. But, you can go to a resturant, buy a bottle of wine with dinner (Hell, buy three bottles) have one sip out of the bottle and then take it home, as late as you like and on any day of the week.

The majority of the population in MN lives within 40 minutes of the Wisconsin border, most less than 20 minutes. In Minnesota you can't buy booze on a Sunday, and the tobacco taxes are now something like %80, but in Wisconsin you can buy liquor any day of the week, and tobacco is still reasonable.

Ridiculous.

 

[Swervo Maneuver]

The whole "old enough to die for your country, you should be able to drink" argument seems really asinine to me.

The two things don't have any relationship. The same logic could be applied to anything.

If you're old enough to die for your country, you should be allowed to shoot smack.

If you're old enough to kill for your country abroad, you should be allowed to kill at home, too.

it doesn't add up.

That whole argument came from VOTING AGE injustices. As in, if you're old enough to be sent to die, you should be allowed to choose the leaders who may or may not send you to war.

That's a relevant connection. The drinking age may be silly, but faulty logic isn't going to change anybody's mind.

 

[kornkob]

/edit Didn't see a delete mode and decided that arguing about this wasn't worth the effort. -Kob

 

[kornkob]

The majority of the population in MN lives within 40 minutes of the Wisconsin border, most less than 20 minutes. In Minnesota you can't buy booze on a Sunday, and the tobacco taxes are now something like %80, but in Wisconsin you can buy liquor any day of the week, and tobacco is still reasonable.

Ridiculous.

Because I thought the reverse was true on the tobacco tax issue, I looked it up.

according to the Minnesota House of Reps website, MN imposes a 48 cent tax on a pack of smokes (20 units per pack). Per the WI Dept of Revenue website, WI charges 77 cents per.

http://www.dor.state.wi.us/faqs/ise/cigar.html#cig4
http://www.house.leg.state.mn.us/hrd/issinfo/sscigtax.htm

On another note: tax rate on beer in Wisconsin is $2 per 31 gallon barrel. http://www.dor.state.wi.us/faqs/#alcohol

Minnesota was more complicated having both an excise tax and an increased sales tax rate. After putting around for 15 minutes trying to figure out an side by side comparison I saw a chart on this page: http://www.house.leg.state.mn.us/hrd/issinfo/ssalbvtx.htm#Q5

*shrug* For what that's worth. A half hour of web searches and some noodling as I waited for water to boil (for tea, not beer).


PS-- the Arkansaw law actually requires the registration of kegs for off site consumption. Kegs are any 4 gallon or lager container. It's the off site consumption that makes a difference---- that's why your bathtub is not required to be registered--- unless you intent to fill it with beer so that someone can take it off-site to drink the beer.

 

[cowain]

PS-- the Arkansaw law actually requires the registration of kegs for off site consumption. Kegs are any 4 gallon or lager container. It's the off site consumption that makes a difference---- that's why your bathtub is not required to be registered--- unless you intent to fill it with beer so that someone can take it off-site to drink the beer.

Wrong. Ark. Code Ann. 3-5-227(a)(2) defines keg as a vessel which has a liquid capacity of four gallons (4 gals.) or more.

Ark. Code Ann. 3-5-227(h)(2) states that "Any person other than the retail dealer, licensed wholesaler, or an agent of the Alcoholic Beverage Control Enforcement Division that is knowingly in possession of a keg without an identification label or tag . . . is guilty of a violation of this subchapter."

Therefore anyone who possesses a 'keg' as defined by the act is guilty under the chapter. There is no reference to off-premises consumption in the definition of that violation.

 

[kornkob]

Understood, but the law also specifies the point at which the registration tag must be affixed.

(4) Identification tags shall be attached to the kegs at the time of sale with nylon ties or cording, wire ties or other metal attachment devices, or another durable means of tying or attaching the tag to the keg.



So--- no sale, no registration.

 

[FilJos]

Because I thought the reverse was true on the tobacco tax issue, I looked it up.

according to the Minnesota House of Reps website, MN imposes a 48 cent tax on a pack of smokes (20 units per pack). Per the WI Dept of Revenue website, WI charges 77 cents per.

http://www.dor.state.wi.us/faqs/ise/cigar.html#cig4
http://www.house.leg.state.mn.us/hrd/issinfo/sscigtax.htm

On another note: tax rate on beer in Wisconsin is $2 per 31 gallon barrel. http://www.dor.state.wi.us/faqs/#alcohol

Minnesota was more complicated having both an excise tax and an increased sales tax rate. After putting around for 15 minutes trying to figure out an side by side comparison I saw a chart on this page: http://www.house.leg.state.mn.us/hrd/issinfo/ssalbvtx.htm#Q5

True. The tobacco tax is higher in Wisconsin. But in Minnesota we have a "fee" on top of the tax and we Minnesotan's are smart enough to call a spade a spade.

I do not believe that the webpage cited regarding cigarette taxes takes into account the tobacco "fee" of 2005. The "fee" raises the price of non-cigarette tobacco products by another %35 on top of the current %35. So a Cigar that costs $10 when it crosses state lines, costs you $17 at the tobacconist. The "fee" also raises the "tax" per pack of cigarettes another $0.75 to $1.23. The "fee" took effect on Aug. 1.

Also, I never stated that Wisconsin booze taxes were less, only that you could buy it on sundays and that the majority of the Minnesota population lives close to the border with Wisconsin, so all that is really happening is that the liquor stores in Superior and Hudson are making a killing every sunday.

 

[kornkob]

Ah-- missed the fee.


I threw in the beer tax thing as a general interest kinda thing.

 

[cowain]

Understood, but the law also specifies the point at which the registration tag must be affixed.

(4) Identification tags shall be attached to the kegs at the time of sale with nylon ties or cording, wire ties or other metal attachment devices, or another durable means of tying or attaching the tag to the keg.



So--- no sale, no registration.

Right, but the fact that there is no possibility to get it registered doesn't mean that the violation hasn't occurred. The problem is in the way the legislature has worded the violation.

 

[kornkob]

Hey-- maybe I'm wrong but when I read the full text of that law it seemed pretty clear to me that there was a point at which a keg needed to be registered and that involved the point of sale for off premise consumption.

*shrug*

 

[Walker]

No elves allowed on your beer labels in Connecticut.

-walker

 

[Windaria]

No, Swervo Maneuver, it makes perfect sense. If you are old enough to fight in a war, then you are old enough to be treated like an adult. That is where the "old enough to buy booze", etc, comes into it, because those arguments come into play.

Also... for the off-premesis consumption. Sounds like those 7 gallon camping water containers are technically considered a keg...

 

[Baron von BeeGee]

No elves allowed on your beer labels in Connecticut.

-walker

That's taking legislative idiocy to a new level.

 

[Windaria]

Maybe... I tend to think that the word legislative just means idiocy anyway. <smiles> For example... I just expect that, when looking the word legislative up in the dectionary, I will find the following:

legislative
Pronunciation: 'le-j&s-"lA-tiv
Function: adjective
1: An act of using your pen, instead of opening your mouth, and removing all doubt that you are an idiot, while at the same time imposing your act of idiocy on others.

 

[2nd Street Brewery]

It requires additional deposits for a keg and the keg has to be tagged with registration paperwork that shows who bought it and where from. The problem is that the paperwork that is attached is attached with a plastic zip tie, so if you bought a keg for a minor, you would just cut it off.

We have a similar registration law here in NY. However if the keg is missing the tag you don't get your deposit back. The deposit runs close to twice the cost of the keg. This prices the kids out of buying kegs.

 

[brewfeller]

Hey billybrew,
I am a homebrewer/beer lover in Edmond, OK.
I saw your posting about stupid Oklahoma Beer laws.
I want to do something to change them.
Of course no one can do it alone but I want to see if there is something that can be done on a grass roots level. I want to try to get all the breweries in Oklahoma envolved if possible. There aren't that many as you know. From what I understand, It would take an amendment to the Oklahoma State constitution which would be no easy task.
Extremely difficult but not impossible. It would have to pass the vote of the people. But it takes a group of people willing to do something about it to get it to that point. How can we get this started? Ideas? suggestions?

 

[Dragonfly]

We have this forbidden liquid that we can't consume.... We wait and wait and wait and wait for our 21st birthday. When it finally arrives....?

We binge drink and get totally hammered. -walker

Who's waiting?