Save these beers

[Brian66]

I recently brewed a hopped pilsner and a cold IPA. Both beers have a bitterness that I don't care for and to me are off-putting. I do however have a Pale ale cascade/El dorado that turned out pretty good so at least I have some good beer.

Hopped pilsner - 96.5% German pilsner, 3.5% carafoam. Boil hops Saaz, whirlpool Strata.
Cold IPA - 87.5% American Pilsner, 12.5% flaked corn. Magnum/Cascade boil hops, El Dorado/Mandarina Bavaria whirlpool hops, El Dorado/Mandarina Bavaria dry hops.

Getting together with a bunch of family next week and looking for ways to salvage these beers. Looking for suggestions on what I can add to make these beers palatable and not totally have to dump them. Shandys? Beer cocktails? Any suggestions on what I can do for these beers?

I'm guessing just not good hop combos and/or water. My town water recently changed. Just looking for ways to make these beers more drinkable.

What suggestions do you have?

 

[kev211]

If its a bitterness thing, what were the amounts and timing for the boil additions? OG's? Listing the grains and hops is a good start, but the more info you provide will help better identify where that flavor may be coming from. That said, the hop combos seem fine to me.

The cold ipa might be coming across as too bitter for a cold ipa due to the amount of corn. What sets a cold ipa apart from a standard west coast (in terms of grist) is that the grist for a cold ipa is more like an adjunct lager in that the corn should be 20%-40%.

That said, try making beer cocktails. Maybe a margarita with the pils?

 

[Brian66]

For me it's not that the bitterness is necessarily too high but to me not a good tasting bitterness.

I do small batch so these are 2 1/2 gallon batches

Pilsner Hop Schedule
Boil:
0.30 oz Saaz 60 min
0.30 oz Saaz 30 min
0.30 oz Saaz 15 min
1 oz Strata Whirlpool @170F 15mins

Cold IPA Hop Schedule:
Boil:
0.10 oz Magnum First Wort
0.10 oz Cascade First Wort
0.20 oz Magnum 30 min
0.20 oz Cascade Boil 30 min
0.10 oz Magnum Boil 15 min
0.10 oz Cascade Boil 15 min
0.10 oz Magnum Boil 0 min
0.10 oz Cascade Boil 0 min
0.50 oz El Dorado Whirlpool at 170 °F 20 min
1 oz Mandarina Bavaria Whirlpool 20 min
1 oz El Dorado Dry Hop 3 days
2 oz Mandarina Bavaria Dry Hop 3 days

 

[kev211]

That’s bizarre. None of those hops really strike me as weird or having weird flavor profiles. When you say weird tasting bitterness, is it more of a puckering? Spicy? Or is the actual hop flavor (and not necessarily the bitterness) you’re not into? I know some people aren’t super into saaz, but I think it’s a great hop for pilsners (I use it in my American light lager and it’s fantastic).

Just out of curiosity, on the ipa, why did you first wort hop and not do a 60 minute or bigger 30 minute addition?

 

[wdavis2003]

How long have you let them lager for?

I'd bet by the time the party rolls around the harsh bitterness will dissipate and leave you with some nice beers.

 

[Brian66]

It's not spicy - somewhat astringent maybe? Although no one else has described it that way. I don't know how else to describe it other than a bad tasting bitterness on the sides of my tongue.

I like a good Czech lager so I don't think it's that I don't like Saaz - unless I just overdid it. Or maybe strata and Saaz just don't pair well.

Something I read about on a Lunch IPA clone (Maine beer co) was the gradual/continuous hopping in smaller amounts - I liked the result in the past so that's why I did on the Cold IPA. I also just did a Pale ale that was Cascade in the boil with El Dorado Dry hop and this came out excellent. I'm thinking maybe it's the Mandarina - a bad batch maybe? although it smelled ok.

 

[pvtpublic]

Astringency is the bitterness/dryness that chokecherries have. What is the temp of your sparge water? If it's too hot, it will draw tannins out of the barley husk. Same thing if the pH is too high.

 

[jdauria]

The hopped pils I would say it's the Strata - Per Yakima Valley it's flavor profile is berry/current, menthol and sweet fruit. It's descriptors are Strawberry, Passion fruit, Grapefruit, Bubble Gum, Sage, Dank...none of that I would want in a pilsner. It's a high AA% hop, even in whirlpool, I think that was not a great choice.

The Cold IPA, my guess is it's hop burn...like most IPAs, it needs time to mellow out. How long has it been from dry hopping to pouring the first pint? As to how to fix...unfortunately I don't have an answer for that.

 

[Brian66]

I do BIAB and usually don't sparge - however I'm trying to improve my efficiency and did batch sparge on these - water temp was 160F. Did the same on the Pale ale and that one is fine.

These beers are young. Pilsner was brewed on 6/30 kegged on 7/12 and the Cold IPA was brewed on 7/14 kegged 7/25.

 

[kev211]

Jdauria is probably right. The IPA is probably just green. Give it another week or so. I was recently at a very well known brewery here in San Diego, ordered an IPA and the beer tender actually gave me a heads up and said "hey this one is super fresh and the hops are coming through a little harsh, would you like to try a sip before I pour a pint" (which I thought was super cool of him). I have had this beer multiple times so I know it well and lo and behold, it definitely had hop burn to it. So it even happens on the commercial side.

That said, I still stand by my margarita comment if all else fails

 

[Brian66]

Thanks. That's a good beertender. I part time beertend at a brewery and will do similar - give a heads up and taste if there's something different about the beer.

 

[kev211]

I agree. Its good for the brewery and the customer. If I had paid 7 or 8 bucks for that beer I would have been pissed. The fact that he did that ensures a happy customer who will continue patronizing that brewery.

Sorry to hijack

 

[JohnDBrewer]

Take some bottles to your local brew club meeting or local brewery and let someone else experienced try your beers. Do NOT give them a heads up as to what you think the problem is. Get some feed back and discuss it with them.

If you want to cut the harshness/bitterness add a little acid - lactic, citric or lime juice. Pull a glass and try that to see if it works.

 

[Broothru]

If its a bitterness thing, what were the amounts and timing for the boil additions? OG's? Listing the grains and hops is a good start, but the more info you provide will help better identify where that flavor may be coming from. That said, the hop combos seem fine to me.

The cold ipa might be coming across as too bitter for a cold ipa due to the amount of corn. What sets a cold ipa apart from a standard west coast (in terms of grist) is that the grist for a cold ipa is more like an adjunct lager in that the corn should be 20%-40%.

That said, try making beer cocktails. Maybe a margarita with the pils?

Along those lines, using flaked rice instead of flaked maize/corn would reduce the ‘cornholio’ effect. Also consider rice syrup solids (like DME, except it’s rice). Just brewed an Imperial (Cold) IPA with rice solids to bump up the ABV, and it worked quite nicely. Really dried out the finished beer and balanced the large hops load without adding residual sweetness or color. Also no “twang” that you can get with some adjuncts. Very neutral.

 

[AmarikinBrew]

Saaz, at least for me, don't pair well with other than Noble hops, ie. Sterling hops too.
Anything with Dank or funk just don't pair well with Saaz or Sterling to my palette.
Maybe it's the "hay" effect they bring about?

 

[Yooper]

One of the things that jumps out at me as a beer judge is the possibility of a high alkalinity water (high mash pH) that can create a harsh bitterness, particularly in lighter colored beers and with noble hops.

What was the water you used for those beers?

 

[kenmcchord]

Hey Y'all,
Been away from this site for a little while, but I need to be a better online friend. Signed up to support and gonna try to post more often.

Now on to cold IPA. I'm brewing one on Sunday called "Sample in a Jar", cold IPA with mosaic, citra and strata. Biggest thing for myself and many in my local brew club (Brewers Anonymous, Orlando FL) is the addition of advanced hop products to help round out flavors and help those flavors pop without undue grassiness.

I think it's all about water treatment regarding whether the hops are perceived as either harsh or just weird flavors. I would be curious to your water treatment OP, and if you took mash pH, etc.

So here's my recipe, I try to write my own for the most part.

13 gallon batch - all IBUs are estimates via BrewFather.

Estimated:
OG - 1.077
FG - 1.017
IBU - 76
BU/GU - .99
ABV 7.9

32 lbs Murphy & Rude VA Pils (82%)
7 lbs Briess flaked corn (18%)

60 minute mash at 149°
60 minute boil

4 oz whole cone Mosaic 13.9°AA mash hops

.75 oz Mosaic (whole) @ 60 min - estimated 10.6 IBU
1.75 oz Mosaic (whole) @ 10 min, est 10.1 IBU
1.5 oz Citra (12% aa) @ 10 min, est 8.1 IBU
1.5 oz Strata (14% aa) @ 10 min, est 9.5 IBU

4oz Citra Hop Hash (estimated 22% aa) hopstand 20 min @170° - 9.6 IBUs
4 oz Strata hopstand 20 min @170 - 6.2 IBUs
2 oz Mosaic (whole) hopstand 20 min @170 - 2.8 IBUs
2 oz Mosaic Lupomax (18% aa) 20 min hopstand @ 170 - 3.9 IBUs

Day 3 dry hops (biotransformation)
2 oz Citra
2 oz Mosaic
2 oz Strata

Day 13 dry hops (end of fermentation, day 13 is only a placeholder for a post fermentation dry hopping)
2.5 oz Citra
2.5 oz Strata
1.75 oz Citra Lupomax
1.75 oz Mosaic Lupomax
1.75 Strata CGX (cryo)

Whew, it's a lot of hops. Trying to write a water treatment profile now.

 

[Brian66]

I think it's all about water treatment regarding whether the hops are perceived as either harsh or just weird flavors. I would be curious to your water treatment OP, and if you took mash pH, etc.

I do look at mash PH - I use Bru'n water. I think that is what the issue was. I had found some bad data entered into one of the cells of the Bru'n water sheet and haven't had the issue since.