Sassafras flavor / alternatives

[springmom]

Hmmmm. Hay soda....... Nom.

 

[ryangibson77]

...okay, so I gave up trying to find a local source of fresh wintergreen leaves or oil...they are both surprisingly difficult to find! However, I did actually come up with an even better idea (IMO). I ended up going to the local garden supply store and picked up an actual Wintergreen plant (Gaultheria Procumbens). Doesn't get any fresher than this!

The leaves do not have any smell until you break them, then they have a slight "clean" evergreen kind of aroma...a very faint "foresty" smell. Upon chewing a leaf, I first noticed that they have a fairly high astringency, followed by a very distinct, minty wintergreen chewing gum flavor.

I am currently steeping some leaves to verify the online info that states that enzymatic conversion to methyl salycilate is necessary.
See here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaultheria_procumbens
Edibility
The fruits are edible, with a minty flavor,[7] and the leaves and branches make a fine herbal tea, through normal drying and infusion process. For the leaves to yield significant amounts of their essential oil, they need to be fermented for at least 3 days.[8]

From everything I've read, the "fermentation" that is referred to has nothing to do with yeast or bacteria, and is simply an enzymatic reaction of some sort, much like mashing grains to make beer. I would like to find out what the chemistry behind this process is, and what the ideal enzymatic conversion temperature/environment is...which would probably significantly speed up the process. Any Bio Chemists out there that could help?

I'll try to make a wintergreen only brew first, then try making a blended recipe.

 

[springmom]

Just as well that you couldn't find oil of wintergreen. The toxicity is impressive, even in small amounts. It metabolizes into salicylic acid (aspirin) and just a teaspoonful is the equivalent of 300 aspirin tablets...with the obvious outcome if ingested.

It's also what gives Ben-Gay ointment that smell.

Not to start (or restart) a tussle but I have to say, I think I'd be of a mind to use sarsaparilla or sassafras (maybe Pappy's extract? It has the nasty stuff taken out) than to mess around with methyl salicylate.

 

[Shooter]

...okay, so I gave up trying to find a local source of fresh wintergreen leaves or oil...they are both surprisingly difficult to find! However, I did actually come up with an even better idea (IMO). I ended up going to the local garden supply store and picked up an actual Wintergreen plant (Gaultheria Procumbens). Doesn't get any fresher than this!

The leaves do not have any smell until you break them, then they have a slight "clean" evergreen kind of aroma...a very faint "foresty" smell. Upon chewing a leaf, I first noticed that they have a fairly high astringency, followed by a very distinct, minty wintergreen chewing gum flavor.

I am currently steeping some leaves to verify the online info that states that enzymatic conversion to methyl salycilate is necessary.
See here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaultheria_procumbens
Edibility
The fruits are edible, with a minty flavor,[7] and the leaves and branches make a fine herbal tea, through normal drying and infusion process. For the leaves to yield significant amounts of their essential oil, they need to be fermented for at least 3 days.[8]

From everything I've read, the "fermentation" that is referred to has nothing to do with yeast or bacteria, and is simply an enzymatic reaction of some sort, much like mashing grains to make beer. I would like to find out what the chemistry behind this process is, and what the ideal enzymatic conversion temperature/environment is...which would probably significantly speed up the process. Any Bio Chemists out there that could help?

I'll try to make a wintergreen only brew first, then try making a blended recipe.

It sounds like you are on the right track with what you are doing. I suspect there will be something about the wintergreen, maybe just a small amount, in the mix that makes it more "root beer" like, at least in comparison to modern renditions. Nobody is saying just go ahead and use only wintergreen. Most recipes I've seen that contain sassafras also contained other flavor components. I don't know why that would be any different with recipes using wintergreen.

 

[ryangibson77]

SpringMom, 10-4 on the toxicity. Someone can correct me if I am wrong, but I believe that if the flavor of the wintergreen is reasonable (ie. less strong than chewing a piece of wintergreen gum, which uses methyl salicylate as flavoring) it's probably fine. Where the problem comes in is if I were to over-dose the soda in such a way that the concentration of methyl salicylate would be so strong that it would make anything even resembling root beer...perhaps a mouthful of Bengay? I would think that using a handful of fresh wintergreen leaves would be pretty safe...? I mean, they used to make tea out of it...but then, they also used to make sassafras tea...

Also, I'm not ruling out the Pappy's extract, I'd just rather find a combination of raw ingredients other than sassafras that works.

Shooter, yeah, I just want to make a straight wintergreen soda for experimental purposes. I have single flavor sodas of each of the other flavors, so as I'm developing the recipe, I can more easily recognize which flavor component needs to be adjusted.

It also helps me set a benchmark for single ingredient proportion. For example, the sassafras soda that I made was WAY too strong, whereas most of the others were pretty close to ideal. Now I have a benchmark for how much of each component to add.

 

[aruzinsky]

Dihydroanethol tastes like a mixture of sassafras and anise oils. As such, it can replace the combination in most root beer recipes that use both. See http://www.thegoodscentscompany.com/data/rw1024292.html .

For example, a commercially viable recipe (minus sweetener, coloring, foaming agent, etc.) might be:

Ethyl Vanillin, 100 parts per million (ppm)
Methyl Salicylate, 25 ppm
Dihydroanethol, 3 ppm

 

[Blue-Frog]

Is this available somewhere in small quantities?
I would like to try (& smell) it.

I wonder if Pappy's contains this compound?

Pappy's certainly is the only non-safrole containing sassafras like material I have found.

Blue-Frog

 

[aruzinsky]

Is this available somewhere in small quantities?
I would like to try (& smell) it.

I wonder if Pappy's contains this compound?

Pappy's certainly is the only non-safrole containing sassafras like material I have found.

Blue-Frog

There is a problem in that food grade (FCC) dihydroanethol is difficult to buy retail. Sigma Aldridge sells it wholesale here, http://www.sigmaaldrich.com/catalog/product/aldrich/w293008?lang=en&region=US .

I purchased 25 g. of perfume grade dihydroanethol online at http://www.thegoodscentscompany.com/pricoffr.html but I am uncertain whether they will sell to anyone.

 

[aruzinsky]

Is this available somewhere in small quantities?
I would like to try (& smell) it.

I wonder if Pappy's contains this compound?

Pappy's certainly is the only non-safrole containing sassafras like material I have found.

Blue-Frog

Dihydroanethol would have to be listed on the label as "artificial flavoring." I have not tried Pappy's Sassafras Tea but according to

http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51FGO+QHN9L.jpg

all of the ingredients are natural. Also, according to one negative review, it tastes too much like root beer instead of sassafras:

http://www.amazon.com/Pappys-Sassaf...iewpoints=0&sortBy=bySubmissionDateDescending

So, did you have any luck buying dihydroanethol? Sooner or later some retail online store will sell it to anyone with a credit card.

 

[Blue-Frog]

Dihydroanethol would have to be listed on the label as "artificial flavoring." I have not tried Pappy's Sassafras Tea but according to

http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51FGO+QHN9L.jpg

all of the ingredients are natural. Also, according to one negative review, it tastes too much like root beer instead of sassafras:

http://www.amazon.com/Pappys-Sassaf...iewpoints=0&sortBy=bySubmissionDateDescending

So, did you have any luck buying dihydroanethol? Sooner or later some retail online store will sell it to anyone with a credit card.

Well one of the detractors clearly states "I am use to tea like Lipton's Ice Tea" and so obviously had no idea what they were buying; another person wrote: "This tastes mostly like root beer, or sasparilla, not sassafras. Great if you like root beer, which I hate." again displaying a lack of affection for the concept!

Also, if you have used sassafras yourself, you will no doubt have observed that Sassafras keeps on giving... so for someone used to drinking homebrewed concentrated sassafras tea, Pappy's could indeed be considered too weak....

but all said, I haven't tried it since they were supposed to have removed the goodness from it, but well, it could have changed.

Humm, actually, I think I have had it once since then, and found it very sasisfactory, but I am not quite sure - it's all a bit fuzzy!

OTOH, I tried Lorann Oils Sassafras maybe 2 years back and that was NOT sassafras like at all. It actually tasted like one of my own formulations.... It was very dissapointing to learn that the best they could do... was no better than the best I could do.

They also have a root beer flavor, but I did not bother trying it....

As far as DHA goes,
I am in the sap-like flow from one location to another, while rebuilding etc. our home & garden so I haven't had time to look into it. I am sure I will as soon as we get settled in to the new place!

but,

are you sure dihydroanethol doesn't exist in nature?

Blue-Frog

 

[aruzinsky]

are you sure dihydroanethol doesn't exist in nature?
Blue-Frog

Dihydroanethol exists in nature, specifically in bonito mushrooms, capparis spinosa, katsubushi, mentha rotundifolia and pimpinella anisum, but, I have only seen the synthetic version offered for sale.

 

[Blue-Frog]

so conceivably Pappy's might contain it and still be "all natural".

 

[aruzinsky]

so conceivably Pappy's might contain it and still be "all natural".

Yes, but unlikely as a natural isolate because it would be too costly. Also, don't forget that dihydroanethol's flavor also has an anise component. This is fine for root beer because pre-1960 commercial root beer typically contained safrole (sassafras), methyl salicylate (wintergreen), and anethol (anise), but, the last two components have no place in sassafras flavoring. Do you taste any anise or wintergreen flavor in Pappy's?

Incidentally, I tried Lorann's "Sassafras" flavoring several years ago and it tasted like little more than methyl salicylate to me.

 

[Blue-Frog]

Yes, but unlikely as a natural isolate because it would be too costly. Also, don't forget that dihydroanethol's flavor also has an anise component. This is fine for root beer because pre-1960 commercial root beer typically contained safrole (sassafras), methyl salicylate (wintergreen), and anethol (anise), but, the last two components have no place in sassafras flavoring. Do you taste any anise or wintergreen flavor in Pappy's?

Incidentally, I tried Lorann's "Sassafras" flavoring several years ago and it tasted like little more than methyl salicylate to me.

That is curious.

The Lorann's "Sassafras" flavoring I tried, also several years ago, if it had any methyl salicylate at all, certainly was not methyl salicylate "forward"; if present, it most certainly was muted and at low or threshold levels... it in fact seemed to be anethol "forward" if anything.

In the Pappy's I've tried, there was never any taste of anise nor wintergreen - not even a hint. That was some time ago however and I cannnot be certain their formulation /flavor profile hasn't changed.

 

[aruzinsky]

That is curious.

The Lorann's "Sassafras" flavoring I tried, also several years ago, if it had any methyl salicylate at all, certainly was not methyl salicylate "forward"; if present, it most certainly was muted and at low or threshold levels... it in fact seemed to be anethol "forward" if anything.

In the Pappy's I've tried, there was never any taste of anise nor wintergreen - not even a hint. That was some time ago however and I cannnot be certain their formulation /flavor profile hasn't changed.

I still have Lorann's "Sassafras" flavoring and just now smelled it. I only recently became familiar with the odor and flavor of isobutyl salicylate. I seem to smell isobutyl salicylate plus something more fruity that I cannot even seemingly identify. See http://www.thegoodscentscompany.com/data/rw1006892.html and click "Organoleptics." You can buy 4 ml for $3 at http://shop.perfumersapprentice.com/p-6127-isobutyl-salicylate.aspx .

I may be abnormally sensitive to the flavor of methyl salicylate. I can easily identify its flavor in A&W Root Beer because it burns my tongue in a certain way that I dislike. If it was that way with most people, A&W would not be the best selling root beer. However, I cannot identify the flavor of wintergreen in classic bubble gum flavor. To me, Barq's Root Beer tastes like classic bubble gum plus a little extra wintergreen.

 

[aruzinsky]

7/7/14

Yesterday, I bought a 12 oz. bottle of Pappy's Sassafras Instant Tea at Walmart for $2.74 just to examine the odor. I cannot decide whether it has a sassafras odor component but the overall odor is closer to that of modern root beer than it is to that of sassafras. But, it is more pungent than either sassafras or modern root beer. I seem to smell methyl salicylate (wintergreen) and eugenol (clove). I note that eugenol and camphor are secondary components of sassafras oil which is more than 75% safrole.

 

[aruzinsky]

Delete for repeat posting

 

[Blue-Frog]

interesting.
Wish I could smell it.

As an aside, a friend just brought me a present from Canada... a packet of Dave's Root Beer Tea...
and if you know your Root Beer History, that is an interesting full circle, at leat in a mobius sortof way.

Well, I don't know what to say.
It wasn't sassafrass, but I thought the flavor was a pretty good approximation.
(On the A~F Scale maybe between C+ and D+)

It is curious... the lable says Sarsaparilla essence, extract or something-
(it is not in front of me now), but what I found interesting is that it said "Made in Vietnam".

I was there a few years back and was delighted to discover a Vietnamese root beer, Xaxsi or Saxsi, well I can't recall the spelling now- I could check if necessary anyway it is pronounced sort of like "SAUCE-She"; its an unusual taste, more like current root beer than sassafras tea, but still unique and quite drinkable!

The Canadian Root Beer Tea might (?) have contained some Sassafras, but not much.
It did taste kind of nice... I suspect the cinnamon was Vietnamese based on looks, taste and oh yea, the "made in..." lable.

There are a lot of wierd things in the tea as well... some very tiny red flowers, dried mik or something like that, etc.

I haven't looked for the site, but i was told it is available on line.

humm that taste might have been crsated... (improved upon) using a Lorran's oil type sassafras flavor and the other additional materials... I don't know.

It is dangerous to speak of flavors long seperated in time!

Why can you not say if the Pappys you bought tasted like sassafras or not?
Is it borderline?


ok, I checked and the tea is called "Root Beer Float Tea"...

Contains:
Cinnamon, black tea, white chocolate, sarsaparilla, safflower petals, natural flavouring*.
Contains milk and soy

you can read a review at
http://sororiteasisters.com/2012/12/08/organic-root-beer-float-from-davids-tea/

The reviewer said it tastes like root beer, but I would point out
I would place it closer to sassafras tea than root beer.

Perhaps it depends upon how thinly you draw the line.

(If you decide to order some, could you let me know?)

 

[aruzinsky]

Yes, but, don't forget that I have real sassafras oil that is about 80% safrole with which to make comparisons therefore I am not relying on long term memory. And, with this, I have duplicated some pre-1960 commercial root beer recipes. Incidentally, one, called Ottawa Root Beer, was simply flavored with equal parts wintergreen, anise and sassafras oils. In my opinion, it tastes better than any modern commercial root beer.

Because it is possible to blend ingredients in proportions such that it is impossible to identify any of the components from the odor of the mixture alone. The brain perceives the odor of the mixture as a single odor. There is no word for this property, so call it "property X." Examples of common mixtures with property X are Coca Cola and classic bubble gum flavor. (Incidentally, it seems that property X is often desirable because I prefer Coke to Pepsi because I can identify a lemon odor in Pepsi.) When only some components can be identified, it is conceptually useful to break the odor down into (something with property X) + everything that can be identified. My brain perceives the odor of Pappy's Sassafras Tea as (something with property X) + methyl salicylate + eugenol. If there was safrol in Pappy's, it would be included in (something with property X).

 

[Blue-Frog]

In my opinion, it tastes better than any modern commercial root beer.

I think I would agree with you, but I don't think it should be made w/o a decent safrole substitute.
Despite my personal belief that it is probably ok, I wouldn't want to be accused of killing people by using a known carcinogen that has been banned for more than half a century. We would never win a lawsuit.

We have to get the law changed.
For that to happen the science needs to be reviewed and a lot of noise has to be made.

A lot of noise.

 

[Blue-Frog]

Examples of common mixtures with property X are Coca Cola and classic bubble gum flavor.

classic bubble gum flavor... Double Bubble? Bozooka Joe?
humm, What do you believe a typical Rx for such a flavor would include?

 

[Blue-Frog]

Incidentally I prefer Coke to Pepsi because I can identify a lemon odor in Pepsi.

Strange, I prefer Pepsi because I can taste the cinnamon... not because of any lemony nuance... For me I might add concentration is important and very often the machines are not set to give the best flavored soda.

If there was safrol in Pappy's, it would be included in (something with property X)

Ah, but the Modern Pappy's isn't supposed to contain any safrole.

Nevertheless, when I tasted it, years ago, it did and it tasted like it did.
No X involved.


Re: Ottawa Rx
I do agree with you about the taste.
(Have you had any problems with "crud" precipitating out of concentrates?)

I will point out that there are several other, more complicated Rx for this , (some very much more)... and there are also similar Rx that do not bear this name at all.

The history is itself interesting and I wish I knew more....

 

[aruzinsky]

I think I would agree with you, but I don't think it should be made w/o a decent safrole substitute.
Despite my personal belief that it is probably ok, I wouldn't want to be accused of killing people by using a known carcinogen that has been banned for more than half a century. We would never win a lawsuit.

We have to get the law changed.
For that to happen the science needs to be reviewed and a lot of noise has to be made.

A lot of noise.

You need to taste safrole to find a good FDA approved substitute. The fact that the FDA and ATF do not address this problem is proof that they are corrupt and stupid. Personally, I have no problem tasting FDA unapproved substances such as safrole, perfume grade chemicals and aromatherapy grade essential oils. If and when I go into the food business, only then will I only use FDA approved substances in order to avoid going to jail, paying fines or being sued.

 

[aruzinsky]

classic bubble gum flavor... Double Bubble? Bozooka Joe?
?

The one that came with baseball cards in the 1950s.

humm, What do you believe a typical Rx for such a flavor would include?

Working from memory on a web search I made about two three weeks ago, wintergreen oil, peppermint oil, cinnamon oil, something banana and something pineapple. This tells you some ingredients to avoid in making root beer, i.e., to avoid making bubble gum flavored root beer such as Barq's.

 

[aruzinsky]

Strange, I prefer Pepsi because I can taste the cinnamon... not because of any lemony nuance...

There are over 400 different kinds of olfactory receptors with about a 30% genetic variance between individuals so this is not strange.

Several decades ago, Canfield Soda Company was located in the Chicago area and their chief flavorist was a local celebrity, appearing in many local TV news stories, e.g., when Canfield came out with Diet Fudge Soda. Canfield Cola absolutely reeked of cinnamon. This indicates to me that the chief flavorist was an incompetent **** who surrounded himself with yes men.

Re: Ottawa Rx
I do agree with you about the taste.

So, you must have real sassafras oil?

(Have you had any problems with "crud" precipitating out of concentrates?)

No, I typically use 1-5% solutions of flavor chemicals or essential oils in alcohol.

I will point out that there are several other, more complicated Rx for this , (some very much more)... and there are also similar Rx that do not bear this name at all.

The history is itself interesting and I wish I knew more....

I got the Ottawa recipe and others from

A TREATISE ON BEVERAGES OR The Complete Practical Bottler
BY
CHARLES HERMAN SULZ, Technical Chemist and Practical Bottler
COPYRIGHT, 1888. BY C. H. SULZ & OO.

Also, there are old commercial recipes in

KRAMER'S Book of Trade Secrets FOR THE Manufacturer and Jobber
BY
ADOLPH KRAMER
1905
SIOUX PUBLISHING COMPANY, PUBLISHERS, Sutherland, Iowa

Both books can be downloaded as PDF files from

https://archive.org/details/texts

 

[aruzinsky]

I should mention that there are two flavor chemicals with a "root beer" like odor and flavor, but I have no experience with them.

meta-dimethyl hydroquinone

See http://www.thegoodscentscompany.com/data/rw1027111.html

ethyl 2-ethyl acetoacetate

See http://www.thegoodscentscompany.com/data/rw1043621.html

 

[TimpanogosSlim]

I think I would agree with you, but I don't think it should be made w/o a decent safrole substitute.
Despite my personal belief that it is probably ok, I wouldn't want to be accused of killing people by using a known carcinogen that has been banned for more than half a century. We would never win a lawsuit.

We have to get the law changed.
For that to happen the science needs to be reviewed and a lot of noise has to be made.

A lot of noise.

The alleged carcinogenic nature of safrole was trumped up strictly because it's dead easy to make safrole into methamphetamine.

 

[Blue-Frog]

The alleged carcinogenic nature of safrole was trumped up strictly because it's dead easy to make safrole into methamphetamine.

It is very tempting to think so but actually I don't think this is very likely.

On two accounts:
First, If I am correct about the 2nd point,
then the date of the legislation doesn't match up.

Second, arn't you thinking of another substance?
(PM me the method if you are adamant!)

But in general, yes that is the lion by the tail!
and that is why it will require a lot of science and a lot of noise to get the law rationalized.

 

[Blue-Frog]

There are over 400 different kinds of olfactory receptors with about a 30% genetic variance between individuals so this is not strange.

Here, strange was used to mean interesting, different; not to imply doubt.


How are you carbonating?

 

[aruzinsky]

Here, strange was used to mean interesting, different; not to imply doubt.


How are you carbonating?

Primo Flavorstation Model 110. I get the 20 oz. C02 tanks, which are physically the same as the ones used for paintball, refilled for $3.50/tank at Sports Authority. Contrary to instructions, I mix most ingredients, including artificial sweetener, before carbonation. As long as the concentration of solutes is sufficiently low, this is usually not a problem. The only exception is foaming agents.