salt additions for BIAB

[JETDOG07]

I have a question about salt additions using John Palmer's spreadsheet and my process. Currently I build my water using distilled water. I have been calculating the amount of salts I need to get my mash to the correct RA using the spreadsheet.

Current example of a Hefeweizen I am brewing. 4 gallon mash for 11.6# of grain. Adding .7g CaSO4, 2.5g CaCl, .8 g Epsom Salt, .5g Baking Soda and .1g Pickling Lime. These additions get my RA for the mash to -17.

I then sparge up to my pre boil volume of 7.2 gallons with distilled water WITHOUT salts.

Here is where my question arises. Am I effectively diluting the salt additions by sparging with distilled water without salts? Would it be better to treat both my sparge and mash water by inputting the combined volume of mash and sparge water into the spreadsheet to hit the target ions concentratins?

I'm worried that I am not getting enough Calcium and flavor ions into the final volume of finished wort.

 

[probablynotnick]

Personally, I think the main priority of salts in the mash is to stabilize your pH. I use bru'n water and sometimes compare with brewer's friend to get my estimations, and then measure with a pH meter at about 15 minutes into the mash. Additional salts can be added to the sparge water as needed if you are concerned about concentrations for flavor, but once again you'll need to consider dilution and pH, particularly at the end if you are fly-sparging.
Bru'n water is rather robust and has a learning curve, but will be much more helpful along the way...

Another simple option is no-sparge. Everything goes into the mash and you're off and running! I can get upwards of 75% brewhouse efficiency when I balance my mash pH and BIAB no-sparge.

Last note: flavor additions of ions can be dissolved in distilled water and added straight to your pint glass if you want to play with different concentrations in a very tangible way.

 

[ScrewyBrewer]

Try focusing on getting your mash pH in range first. The salts will add 'flavor' and the alkalinity to keep the pH in range through the mash and sparge. Trying to focus on RA alone doesn't really help much.

 

[JETDOG07]

Try focusing on getting your mash pH in range first. The salts will add 'flavor' and the alkalinity to keep the pH in range through the mash and sparge. Trying to focus on RA alone doesn't really help much.

The amount of salts I listed get my mash pH to the correct level. My concern is that I'm only adding enough salts to treat 4 gallons of mash water and that I will end up with less than the concentrations I need in my final 6 gallons of wort.

 

[ScrewyBrewer]

The amount of salts I listed get my mash pH to the correct level. My concern is that I'm only adding enough salts to treat 4 gallons of mash water and that I will end up with less than the concentrations I need in my final 6 gallons of wort.

I only treat my mash water and sparge with RO water. If I wanted to treat my sparge water, to preserve a specific 'flavor' profile, I would treat it the same way as the mash water. The type of grains mashed and the mash thickness have an impact on mash pH though.

Using 12 gallons of treated water to mash 23 pounds of grain. And 3 gallons of water for the sparge. I wouldn't calculate the pH of the mash based on 15 gallons of water. Doing so will increase the mash thickness and through off the predicted mash pH. I guess you'd have to treat the sparge water separately to get the salts ppm where you want them.

 

[JETDOG07]

that's what I'm going to do. Treat the mash to get my desired ph then only add calcium sulfate and chloride to the sparge.

 

[Yooper]

Or, add your sparge salts to the kettle. If your mash pH is in range, that's the main goal. The flavoring salts can go in the kettle if your mash pH is ok and you need a few more grams of something.

 

[Yooper]

I will say that in your first post, adding pickling lime and baking soda makes it hard to imagine that you could hit a mash pH of 5.3-5.5 with that grainbill so you may want to double check your meter to see if it's close to accurate.

 

[JETDOG07]

So if I only treated my mash wpuld I end up with too few flavoring ions in the finished wort?

 

[Yooper]

So if I only treated my mash wpuld I end up with too few flavoring ions in the finished wort?

Yes, if you were targeting a specific amount of calcium/chloride/sulfate (others don't matter much at all).

 

[cloudybrewer]

I will say that in your first post, adding pickling lime and baking soda makes it hard to imagine that you could hit a mash pH of 5.3-5.5 with that grainbill so you may want to double check your meter to see if it's close to accurate.

I was thinking the same thing. How is the mash too acidic with a hefewiezen grain bill?

 

[JETDOG07]

Well since I'm starting with distilled water if I use no alkalinity sources my oh wpuld be too low

 

[Yooper]

Well since I'm starting with distilled water if I use no alkalinity sources my oh wpuld be too low

No, it wouldn't. Your pH meter is likely faulty if it's showing that your mash pH is too low with a hefeweizen grainbill and RO or distilled water.

 

[JETDOG07]

That wasn't from a meter. It was from Kaisers spreadsheet for mash estimation. Came out to 5.45 ph at room tempwith those salts. I do realize that's just an estimation though.

 

[Yooper]

That wasn't from a meter. It was from Kaisers spreadsheet for mash estimation. Came out to 5.45 ph at room tempwith those salts. I do realize that's just an estimation though.

I like Kai's spreadsheet- but I've been brewing with distilled/RO water for many years, and I've never once needed to add alkalinity to any grainbill lighter than an amber. For a lighter colored beer, sometimes I even need to add acid. You would be a very rare case if you actually needed to add baking soda or lime, Luckily you didn't add much so it may not make a huge difference but I'd certainly recommend leaving it out.

 

[JETDOG07]

I like Kai's spreadsheet- but I've been brewing with distilled/RO water for many years, and I've never once needed to add alkalinity to any grainbill lighter than an amber. For a lighter colored beer, sometimes I even need to add acid. You would be a very rare case if you actually needed to add baking soda or lime, Luckily you didn't add much so it may not make a huge difference but I'd certainly recommend leaving it out.

I'll rework the spreadsheet tomorrow without the lime and see what it looks like. Would a ph of 5.2 be too low for a hefeweizen mash?

 

[ajdelange]

I have a question about salt additions using John Palmer's spreadsheet and my process. Currently I build my water using distilled water. I have been calculating the amount of salts I need to get my mash to the correct RA using the spreadsheet.

Adjusting RA is no longer in vogue. The emphasis now is on getting the mash pH correct by direct calculation. RA is buried in that process but savvy brewers now only use it to compare source waters (which is what it was intended for).

Current example of a Hefeweizen I am brewing. 4 gallon mash for 11.6# of grain. Adding .7g CaSO4, 2.5g CaCl, .8 g Epsom Salt, .5g Baking Soda and .1g Pickling Lime. These additions get my RA for the mash to -17.

While I have not done the calculations it is unlikely that you would want either baking soda or pickling lime. Both of these contribute alkalinity and you will, rather, probably require some acid for a Hefeweizen.

Here is where my question arises. Am I effectively diluting the salt additions by sparging with distilled water without salts? Would it be better to treat both my sparge and mash water by inputting the combined volume of mash and sparge water into the spreadsheet to hit the target ions concentrations?

Yes, if you sparge with DI water you will dilute the minerals from the strike water but as those minerals are set with the primary goal of controlling mash pH it usually doesn't matter. On the other hand if your water is alkaline, and water to which lime and baking soda have been added is alkaline, the pH of the wort will be increased by that alkalinity during sparging. At the same time, recognize that if this water also contains some calcium that will have a pH lowering effect (setting off some of the water's alkalinity) in the kettle.

The best thing to do is to adjust the whole volume of water to the desired mash pH by adding enough acid to neutralize its alkalinity. As DI water has tiny alkalinity (2.5 ppm as CaCO3) no acid addition is needed. Then use a more modern calculator (i.e. one that helps you hit a particular mash pH rather than RA) and tell it you are using water with 0 alkalinity.

I'm worried that I am not getting enough Calcium and flavor ions into the final volume of finished wort.

Wheat beers are brewed with all kinds of water including water that is pretty soft. All one really needs for a decent wheat beer, or in fact an excellent wheat beer, is something around half a gram per gallon calcium chloride. As the hops are not much of a player in Weizen you don't need sulfate's bitterness enhancement nor do you want the drying effect that it lends. Some opinion there. Others may have a different take on this.

 

[JETDOG07]

What would you recommend doing if that amount of calcium chloride doesn't get me to at least 50 ppm of calcium?

 

[whiskeyjack]

I ran my hefe as a 6gallon batch through brewersfriend, 7.6# wheat and 4.36# pilsner. 8 gallons total water. What i normally do is put all the water in one kettle, mix all the salts, then remove what i dont need for mash after salts are thoroughly mixed. 4g gypsum, 4.25g CaCl will give you 70 Ca, 69 Cl, and 74 SO4. This is a "balanced" profile between Cl and SO4.

 

[whiskeyjack]

Oh and i forgot to mention 2% acid malt to my grist will get you around 5.35ph, according to brewersfriend

 

[ScrewyBrewer]

Wheat beers are brewed with all kinds of water including water that is pretty soft. All one really needs for a decent wheat beer, or in fact an excellent wheat beer, is something around half a gram per gallon calcium chloride. As the hops are not much of a player in Weizen you don't need sulfate's bitterness enhancement nor do you want the drying effect that it lends. Some opinion there. Others may have a different take on this.

As a for instance, I like brewing Belgian Witbiers using hard calcium-rich water. It's pretty much a matter of personal preference and taste.

 

[ajdelange]

What would you recommend doing if that amount of calcium chloride doesn't get me to at least 50 ppm of calcium?

Lots of things come to mind such as having a beer, making a snack, reading a good book, walking the dog, learning the Cyrillic alphabet.... The possibilities are endless.

I looked at your proposed additions a bit more. You aren't adding a lot of alkali so the effects aren't going to be too dramatic. Your formulation will wind up at pH 9.9 (because of the lime) and have alkalinity of about 0.6 mEq/L (30 ppm as CaCO3). This is below the threshold (1 mEq/L) where we usually say you don't need to worry too much about it. RA, though not really relevant, as pointed out in my earlier post, is - 0.5 mEq/L (-25 ppm as CaCO3). Doing things in the old way we would calculate Kolbach's estimate of pH depression caused by this RA as -0.04 pH at knockout. In the mash it will probably be half that i.e. -0.02 pH which is pretty trivial.