Saison Dupontish attempt.. any help i can get!

[rockdemon]

So Ive made two saisons, or actually four with some dry hopping and gooseberry. Not a single one has been tasty, actually theyve been awful...

My favourite is saison dupont. and i would like to get something similar made. I want to harvest yeast from some .75L moinette biologique bottles aswell.

There are tons of "clone" recipes that differs alot to say the least.

Can someone please share a good AG recipe that makes for a good saison in the style of dupont? No wheat malt since my GF has some problem with too much gluten. Also some info on fermentation and so on..

Because of my failed saisons I really need to know all the steps to succeed with this one, im getting sooo sick of pouring my beers down the drain after all the work and expectations... so could someone please give me a saison for dummies recipe?

 

[tagz]

If you are going for a "saison for dummies" I would go with wyeast 3711 or the belle saison to start. You can make a quick, easy, and tasty saison with it. If you culture yeast, it's likely to be unhealthy and could cause off flavors. It's not impossible, but since you've had some disappointments, I would make sure you have a healt pitch of 3711 (fruitier) or belle (spicier). I would also avoid over complicating it with dryhopping and fruit. You can make a solid saison with pils and yeast.

Can you fill us in on your past recipes and the flavors that were off?

 

[fantomlord]

you do know there's gluten in barley, right?

 

[atoughram]

Try this recipe

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f71/cottage-house-saison-254684/

Tweek it to fit. In my opinion it's too bitter at around 37 IBUs as reported by beersmith and in real life in my fermentor. Next time I'll drop the half ounce of fuggels out of the boil. I used Belle Saison yeast, and while it wont be a Dupont Clone, it will be close enough for me.

 

[rockdemon]

you do know there's gluten in barley, right?

of course, but for example:

Duvel is under 200 ppm of gluten(considered glutenfree in sweden)
Erdinger Weissbräu over 3500 ppm gluten

so there is a big different in the amount of gluten in different beers. adding wheat increases the amount extremely....

 

[rockdemon]

If you are going for a "saison for dummies" I would go with wyeast 3711 or the belle saison to start. You can make a quick, easy, and tasty saison with it. If you culture yeast, it's likely to be unhealthy and could cause off flavors. It's not impossible, but since you've had some disappointments, I would make sure you have a healt pitch of 3711 (fruitier) or belle (spicier). I would also avoid over complicating it with dryhopping and fruit. You can make a solid saison with pils and yeast.

Can you fill us in on your past recipes and the flavors that were off?

Ill fill you in on the recipe and the steps i took when i get home, wrote down everything on a paper... One thing i do know is that i had the lid on the pot during the boil(had missed that part) but there must be more too it. the beer is literally undrinkable...

 

[rockdemon]

Ok, so this i how i made the horrible saison.

1. Heated water to 71 degrees.
Added 1.2kg pilsner malt.
Had it in the pot for 1 h at 67 degrees.

2. Ran the wort throu a strainer 2 times.

3. Added 0.5kg light dme. Got it to a boil then added 25g saaz, boil 1 hour. Then added 10g goldings. Boiled 15 more min.

4. Chilled it and added cold preboiled water to make it 10l.

5. When the wort was at 21 degrees i airated it and stirred a vial of wlp565.

Og was 1058. Fg was 1010. 7 days primary and 7 days sexondary.
Primed with tablesugar stirred in boiling water. Cooled the water and stirred it in the beer before bottling.

Tried the beer after 3 weeks. Hardly any carbo at all and a horrible flavor and smell. Dont know really how to explain it, metallic, sweet. Ill open a warm one and ser what i can find out



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[rockdemon]

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[rockdemon]

This one actually had much more carbonation. But it has that metallic, sweet n old taste. I guess its funky... The sweetnes might be because of the old yeast. Production date 7 jan, used 15 march... And 1010 fg is quite high for this yeast right?


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[tagz]

565 is the doupont strain and typically requires a lot of attention. If you pitched without a starter and didn't have a fermentation chamber to crank the temps up, the yeast might finish high and kick out some off flavors. Try switching to 3711. It will reliably finish in the 1.004 range. Make sure to make a starter, and see if you can keep the temps in the 21- 23 range. I'm not sure about the metallic flavor, but yeast health is a good place to start. The "old" flavor makes me think of oxidation, so that's something to keep an eye on too.

 

[rockdemon]

565 is the doupont strain and typically requires a lot of attention. If you pitched without a starter and didn't have a fermentation chamber to crank the temps up, the yeast might finish high and kick out some off flavors. Try switching to 3711. It will reliably finish in the 1.004 range. Make sure to make a starter, and see if you can keep the temps in the 21- 23 range. I'm not sure about the metallic flavor, but yeast health is a good place to start. The "old" flavor makes me think of oxidation, so that's something to keep an eye on too.

thanks for the tip about the fermentation!
With the oxidation, thats very possible, when priming i siphon the beer to another bucket to mix the sugarsolution. when starting the siphoning theres always air in the tubes so the first beer squirts and gets extremely oxidated...

I use secondary fermentation even though alot of people say it isnt necessary, i dont know if its my imagination but it looks like the beer becomes much less cloudy with 2nd? The siphoning probably oxidates the wort when moving from 1st to 2nd aswell so i should probably stop doing secondary? If a recipe says for ex. 1 month primary, 1 month secondary. can i just leave it in primary for 2 months?

 

[timos]

I have done 8 batches so far so am pretty new to this. The first 3 have been bottled, conditioned and drank. I had this mettalic , sweet finish that was pretty gross too. The first batch was the worst in this regard. It is finally tasting ok after bottle conditioning for 8 weeks. 2nd batch was a lager and also showed this mettalic taste after bottling...3 weeks to carbonate and 2 more weeks sitting in fridge got rid of the mettalic taste completely and now is a nice smooth lager. All I am saying is give your beers plenty of time. Pretty bad tasting beers after a couple weeks can come out pretty good after a couple of months.

regards,
tim

 

[rockdemon]

I have done 8 batches so far so am pretty new to this. The first 3 have been bottled, conditioned and drank. I had this mettalic , sweet finish that was pretty gross too. The first batch was the worst in this regard. It is finally tasting ok after bottle conditioning for 8 weeks. 2nd batch was a lager and also showed this mettalic taste after bottling...3 weeks to carbonate and 2 more weeks sitting in fridge got rid of the mettalic taste completely and now is a nice smooth lager. All I am saying is give your beers plenty of time. Pretty bad tasting beers after a couple weeks can come out pretty good after a couple of months.

regards,
tim

So I should calm down and wait and see how it turns out? The only 100% nono i did was to boil the first 3 batches with the lid on. Now im going to be more careful with oxidation and dont be in sucha hurry to try the beer.

 

[Ilan34]

Do you use campden tablets? Could be a chloramine issue. I would also try adding the DME as close to the end of the boil as possible.

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