Saflager S-23 Dry Lager Yeast

[dhelegda]

So I am making a Czech Pilsner, looked for liquid yeast and didn't have any luck so I got the Dry Lager Yeast, does anyone recommend making a yeast starter for dry. With Liquid I usually make my starters on Wednesday night, and with dry ale yeast I just sprayed the package with Star San and pour it in after the wort cools, any difference?

 

[WoodlandBrew]

I've been collecting some metrics on S-23 for my starter calculator, and have noticed that it is quite slow. On paper saccharomyces uvarum looks very similar to saccharomyces cerevisiae, so what I am seeing may be an isolated case. The maximum growth rate of s. cerevisiae is about twice that of s.uvarum (0.4h-1[1] and 0.25h-1[2] respectively)

I've been running a starter on a stir plate for 10 days and it is just now showing signs that the metabolism is slowing and entering the stationary phase. (Tracking fermentation progress by weight [3] and optical density[4]) In addition I have 13 parallel cultures with no agitation which are also still progressing.

(The cultures are a matrix of three gravities and four inoculation densities.

[1] Van Dijken, J. P., et al. "An interlaboratory comparison of physiological and genetic properties of four Saccharomyces cerevisiae strains." Enzyme and Microbial Technology 26.9 (2000): 706-714.

[2] Petrik, Magdalena, Othmar Käppeli, and Armin Fiechter. "An expanded concept for the glucose effect in the yeast Saccharomyces uvarum: involvement of short-and long-term regulation." Journal of General Microbiology 129.1 (1983): 43-49.

[3] Tracking Fermentation by weight is something I am writing up, but it has been used by Kai (braukaiser.com) to track progress.

[4] Asaduzzaman, Md. Standardization of Yeast Growth Curves from Several Curves with Different Initial Sizes. Diss. Master Thesis, 2007.

 

[user 141939]

According to the packet you would have wanted closer to two packets if you were pitching at lager temps. For a 5 gallon batch that is.

 

[dhelegda]

According to the packet you would have wanted closer to two packets if you were pitching at lager temps. For a 5 gallon batch that is.

What if I make a starter and pitch at room temp, then put it in the temperature controlled refrigerator to bring it down to lager temps?

 

[WoodlandBrew]

Typically twice as much yeast is used for a lager compared to an ale. (Dr. George Fix came up with 0.75 billion per liter degree Plato for ales and 1.5 billion per liter degree Plato for lagers. This is the number used by most calculators.

You can use just about any pitch rate calculator to determine the number of cells you need. I wouldn't recommend pitching a lager at anything other that your target fermentation temperature.

 

[dhelegda]

Thank you

 

[user 141939]

Usually people say no to starters for dry yeast.

 

[dfhar]

I do not like this yeast at all. Slow and temperamental. Can you not get W34/70 or S-189?

 

[WoodlandBrew]

W34/70 makes a very crisp dry lager. It's very distinct. (someone might flame me for this, but to me it tastes like Budweiser). S-23 has more character hints of fruit.

 

[Owly055]

We went through the starter for dry yeast thing recently and someone posted a study that found that dry yeast has about double the survival rate if hydrated in plain cool water as compared to wort. This is the basis for the "don't make a starter for dry yeast" wisdom. Clearly once the yeast is hydrated you are just fine to make a starter. Remember that one packet of dry yeast hydrated in cool water (not cold or warm) is equal to two pitched directly into wort.........


H.W.

 

[user 141939]

W34/70 makes a very crisp dry lager. It's very distinct. (someone might flame me for this, but to me it tastes like Budweiser). S-23 has more character hints of fruit.

I just made my very first lager with this yeast and am so very happy with it I wan. To make more. It was belgian pilsner with like 2% each of munich and caramunich and hopped with premiant. I don't think it finished all that dry but I mashed at like 155 or so. It still needs to clear a bit in the bottle but I think it might be my best work so far!

 

[Bowtiebrewery]

W34/70 makes a very crisp dry lager. It's very distinct. (someone might flame me for this, but to me it tastes like Budweiser). S-23 has more character hints of fruit.

Agreed... I used s-23 for a Prima Pils clone and it definitely has a note of fruit in it... Also it seems to amplify the breadiness of the beer. Its not unpleasant, however if I was to brew it again, I would have used the 34/70 as I prefer a dryer lager.

 

[Lalo]

I just made my very first lager with this yeast and am so very happy with it I wan. To make more. It was belgian pilsner with like 2% each of munich and caramunich and hopped with premiant. I don't think it finished all that dry but I mashed at like 155 or so. It still needs to clear a bit in the bottle but I think it might be my best work so far!

Greetings! Sorry for the spam. I realize this is an old post, but I just had a can of Stella made in St Louis MO and it was delicious! Definitely had that fuity/ estery Belgian lager character. I immediately thought of the Saflager S-23 yeast, which is apparently fruitier than other German strains. I definitely want to brew a fruity Belgian lager with S-23. If you read this and you don't mind my asking, what temperatures would you recommend for this yeast if I wanted to bring some of that estery fruitiness of Belgian lagers? Do you remember if you fermented cold, or towards the warmer top recommended temp for this yeast? Thanks in advance for any suggestions! Cheers,

 

[passedpawn]

Greetings! Sorry for the spam. I realize this is an old post, but I just had a can of Stella made in St Louis MO and it was delicious! Definitely had that fuity/ estery Belgian lager character. I immediately thought of the Saflager S-23 yeast, which is apparently fruitier than other German strains. I definitely want to brew a fruity Belgian lager with S-23. If you read this and you don't mind my asking, what temperatures would you recommend for this yeast if I wanted to bring some of that estery fruitiness of Belgian lagers? Do you remember if you fermented cold, or towards the warmer top recommended temp for this yeast? Thanks in advance for any suggestions! Cheers,

It's been so long since I brewed with S-23 that I wouldn't trust any advice I could give you. However, I did a comparison a while back. Perhaps you can gain some insight from that. See link below.

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/threads/lager-yeast-experiment-s-23-vs-wyeast-2124.183454/

 

[Lalo]

It's been so long since I brewed with S-23 that I wouldn't trust any advice I could give you. However, I did a comparison a while back. Perhaps you can gain some insight from that. See link below.

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/threads/lager-yeast-experiment-s-23-vs-wyeast-2124.183454/

Nice! Thanks, I am reading that thread now and there are some very interesting bits of information there!. Cheers,

 

[Franktalk]

It depends on how fruity you want it. I usually ferment with it between 55F and 60F, for a Mexican lager I brew and it is definitely subtle. I also do a Cali common on the higher side of that range, and that can be full out fruity. With that said, I think it's safe to say upper 50s is the sweet spot.

 

[Lalo]

It depends on how fruity you want it. I usually ferment with it between 55F and 60F, for a Mexican lager I brew and it is definitely subtle. I also do a Cali common on the higher side of that range, and that can be full out fruity. With that said, I think it's safe to say upper 50s is the sweet spot.

This is exactly what I needed to know, thanks for sharing! I suppose at that temp there is no need for a diacetyl rest...but maybe I will raise the temp up a bit for a few days just to make sure.

 

[Franktalk]

I think you're right about not needing a diacetyl rest, but probably a little time following the ferment will make sure.