Saaz hops + Belgian yeast = spice and clove?

[emsroth]

I'm sipping on my second beer that prominently features saazer style hops fermented with a Belgian yeast.

5 gallon batches:

Beer #1 was 100% Vienna malt with 4 oz of Hersbrucker hops late in the boil. I'll admit I never used Hersbrucker hops, but I expected citrus/floral like Hallertau. Yeast was Imperial B51 - Workhorse, purportedly the Kasteel strain. Pitched well and fermented cool. On the tongue I got nothing but clove and spice. I blamed the yeast. I wanted an amber lager like Belgian and got a phenolic mess.

Move to beer #2. 100% dark Czech malt (think Munich) and 4oz Saaz hops late in the boil. DuPont saison yeast. This beer is exactly the same. Smells and tastes woody, cinnamon, and clove.

Is there something about Belgian yeast and these hops that produce these qualities?

Beer #2 was meant to be an altbier, but summer temps and aging hops pushed it to saison.

Am I learning that these hops kind of suck? Or suck in such large quantities? What do you think?

 

[Lefou]

Maybe you need to try a different hop.
I'm going to try Spalt hops as an alternative to other noble hops. Moving from Cascade to Willamette to see how that works in American-style brews this fall, too.

 

[JonBrew]

How late in the boil are you adding these hops and in what kind of quantity? If you're using large charges at knock-out I could imagine spicier varieties accentuating the phenolic character that a Belgian yeast might produce under the right conditions. I've also heard of some Belgain strains producing higher phenols at low temps and higher fruity esters at high temps. Maybe you were fermenting a bit too low?

I've not used the B51 strain. Although I've used the DuPont strain, it was hopped with Sorachi Ace and there were very little in the way of phenolics to my taste.

 

[JonBrew]

Sorry, just noticed 4 ounces. That is quite a lot for a fairly delicate hop variety. if that is all going in at knock out it could be that, combined with the yeast, it's just accentuating the pepper/clove notes from both the yeast and hops. Perhaps try doing the first beer again with a clean yeast like a lager or kolsch yeast.

 

[emsroth]

4oz of hops in the 15 minute or less range.

1 oz at 15; 1 oz at 5; 2 oz at flameout.

I have heard that is the case with French saison yeast. Hot = esters; cool = phenols.

 

[rhys333]

If you want spicy, Sterling hops (super-saaz) will definitely get you there.

EDIT: never mind. I see you don't want spice. In that case, I would stay away from Saaz types.

 

[kingwood-kid]

You tried to make an Altbier with Dupont yeast? And you think the hops are the problem?

 

[emsroth]

You tried to make an Altbier with Dupont yeast? And you think the hops are the problem?

You answer the question without reading first?

The recipe was for an Altbier style beer. 100% dark Czech malt (5-7L) and all Saaz hops. But due to summer temps I figured it would be equally good as an amber saison.

The malt character is good, but this is the second, independent beer made with Saazer hops and Belgian yeast that produced strong pie spice flavors -clove, cinnamon, wood.

 

[IslandLizard]

You tried to make an Altbier with Dupont yeast? And you think the hops are the problem?

Yeah, that's what I was wondering too.

Saisons are a showcase of yeast character.

Belgian yeasts are known for phenolics, especially at higher temps during the beginning of the fermentation (>71F), they can become very clovey. Do you use a temp controlled fermentation environment?

 

[kingwood-kid]

You answer the question without reading first?

The recipe was for an Altbier style beer. 100% dark Czech malt (5-7L) and all Saaz hops. But due to summer temps I figured it would be equally good as an amber saison.

The malt character is good, but this is the second, independent beer made with Saazer hops and Belgian yeast that produced strong pie spice flavors -clove, cinnamon, wood.

I read it, and I'm not trying to be rude although I'm sure I managed it anyway. I just don't get why you thought a saison yeast + saaz wouldn't taste like clove and cinnamon. Google saaz and it says "earthy, herbal, spicy." White Labs' description of the Dupont strain is "earthy, peppery, and spicy." Everything about your recipe is constructed to make an earthy, spicy beer, and yet you're surprised and disappointed that you made an earthy, spicy beer.

 

[emsroth]

Yeah, that's what I was wondering too.

Saisons are a showcase of yeast character.

Belgian yeasts are known for phenolics, especially at higher temps during the beginning of the fermentation (>71F), they can become very clovey. Do you use a temp controlled fermentation environment?

Yup. Full SS Brewtech system with FTS and all. Pitched at 65F. Free rise to 70F. 3 days at 70 for full ferment, then a 5 F a day rise to 85F (Max with my heater).

 

[emsroth]

I read it, and I'm not trying to be rude although I'm sure I managed it anyway. I just don't get why you thought a saison yeast + saaz wouldn't taste like clove and cinnamon. Google saaz and it says "earthy, herbal, spicy." White Labs' description of the Dupont strain is "earthy, peppery, and spicy." Everything about your recipe is constructed to make an earthy, spicy beer, and yet you're surprised and disappointed that you made an earthy, spicy beer.

I'm just surprised with the level of wood and spice. I've never made beers this spicy. I make mostly saisons, but I tend to keep hops minimal and tend to use American varieties. And when I've made beers with these hops they had much more floral, citrusy, herbal qualities. I never got discernible spice out of hops (except perhaps the touch of licorice with Mt Ranier).

This is the second time that I have made a beer that ended up much spicier than I had intended. And the inputs were similar. So I wanted to reach out to the community and source experiences.

I agree with a previous post that it would be prudent to try the same recipe but with a clean yeast (Altbier or Kolsch) to see if the same flavors result. The characteristics of this recent Saaz beer doesn't even come close to what I taste in a Czech Pils (lots of Saaz) or perhaps flavors I hadn't noticed before and will now seek. It seems like a lesson in learning how the yeast transforms the flavors.

 

[IslandLizard]

I'm just surprised with the level of wood and spice. I've never made beers this spicy. I make mostly saisons, but I tend to keep hops minimal and tend to use American varieties. And when I've made beers with these hops they had much more floral, citrusy, herbal qualities. I never got discernible spice out of hops (except perhaps the touch of licorice with Mt Ranier).

This is the second time that I have made a beer that ended up much spicier than I had intended. And the inputs were similar. So I wanted to reach out to the community and source experiences.

I agree with a previous post that it would be prudent to try the same recipe but with a clean yeast (Altbier or Kolsch) to see if the same flavors result. The characteristics of this recent Saaz beer doesn't even come close to what I taste in a Czech Pils (lots of Saaz) or perhaps flavors I hadn't noticed before and will now seek. It seems like a lesson in learning how the yeast transforms the flavors.

Again, yeasts contribute an astonishing amount of character to a beer. If they did not, why in the world would we bother using different yeasts and keeping so many around. I've got over 20 strains in (cold) storage.

Czech Pils is a lager, requiring a (clean) lager yeast strain at low ferm temps (45-54F) followed by a brief diacetyl rest at 60-65F and a long lagering period at near freezing temps for 4-6 weeks (or longer). Using an ale yeast simply won't yield anything close to that. A Belgian or Saison yeast even less.

Altbiers are all about balance. Again, special yeast strains and restraint fermentation temps prevent creation of "off flavors." Typically a significant lagering period is used for additional clearing and mellowing of the flavors.

No ale yeast will get you either, Belgian and Saison yeasts being among the extremes in flavor production, much less. Even a Kölsch type yeast at the lowest temps won't produce a "Pilsner," and barely an acceptable Alt. You need to use designated yeasts to get in the ballpark. And dedication to make them perfect, from recipe development and malt selection to process.