S-04 my new go to Pale Ale yeast

[ncbrewer]

There was a 2019 article Controlling Diastaticus in Your Brewery - https://www.chaibio.com/beer-spoilage/diastaticus - which I can’t get to load now. (I get the message “Failed to contact the origin.” It stated “Saccharomyces cerevisiae var. diastaticus is a particularly insidious beer spoiler: a single cell is enough to cause a bottle or can of beer to explode, even months after packaging.” I don’t have any experience with diastaticus yeast strains, but I think it could be a possible cause.

 

[mac_1103]

Saccharomyces cerevisiae var. diastaticus is a particularly insidious beer spoiler: a single cell is enough to cause a bottle or can of beer to explode, even months after packaging.”

Seems a bit sensationalist. If a bottle was contaminated with a single cell, it would definitely take months before it exploded. And if you kept it cold it might take years. Anyway, diastatic strains aren't any harder to kill than other yeasts. But yeah, you do have to make sure you kill them.

edit - I have used a couple of diastatic strains a couple of times (BE-134 and WB-06) and have managed to ferment other beers with other strains without suddenly getting 93% AA in all of my brews; I do three rounds of sanitizing with three different sanitizers; anything that can stand boiling gets boiled and bottles get baked.

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

@ncbrewer , @mac_1103 : FWIW Internet Archives has copy of the article (link).

 

[Halfakneecap]

Seems a bit sensationalist. If a bottle was contaminated with a single cell, it would definitely take months before it exploded. And if you kept it cold it might take years. Anyway, diastatic strains aren't any harder to kill than other yeasts. But yeah, you do have to make sure you kill them.

edit - I have used a couple of diastatic strains a couple of times (BE-134 and WB-06) and have managed to ferment other beers with other strains without suddenly getting 93% AA in all of my brews; I do three rounds of sanitizing with three different sanitizers; anything that can stand boiling gets boiled and bottles get baked.

Agree

I regularly ferment beers in the same fermenter as my saison, ( wy 3724 and 3726 ) have done for years with no issues after standard cleaning and sterilising procedures.

Really not a big deal as people make out in my experience

 

[Snuffy]

Snuffy - Have you used a diastaticus yeast in that same fermenter recently?

Since I don't know what those would be off the top of my head I would need to go back and see. Is there a list of them somewhere? I brew a lot of Belgian and English styles with the occasional Hefeweisen and IPA tossed in. Are you thinking maybe I have another yeast hanging around from a previous brew? Never thought of that. It would have to be hearty. I have 2 fermenters that I kind of rotate. My favorite is the plastic Speidel 30L which I used for this porter. It's very Playskool-ish. Big colorful parts, easily dismantled and every nook and appurtenance accessible for easy cleaning. I make sure I don't scratch it. I'd be surprised if something lived on to rise again.

 

[corncob]

I’ve used S-04 sporadically since sometime so long ago I don’t remember when it was. Definitely used it early years of the century but I feel like I used it back in the late ‘90s too.
Back then I recall all the beers I used it with had a very distinctive taste. It seemed wrong to me. I was a convert to Wyeast and reculturing yeast from Cooper’s bottle conditioned ale since around ‘94 but tried S-04 when it was suggested by the LHBS proprietor. After a few tries I gave up as all the beer tasted strange to me.
I guess that experience coloured all my subsequent attempts to brew with the yeast. It’s a very popular yeast so I assume that I just don’t know how to use it properly. Every so often I get curious and try again. I never really like the result.
A couple years ago I used it in an Imperial Stout. It was a group project where 4 of us brewed 25 litres and filled a 100 litre barrel. There was an agreed-upon recipe which used S-04.
Turned out there was still some space in the barrel, so I brewed another 10 litres, but one of the other group members got there first so I just bottled my little batch.
That beer I kept went on to win best of show at the Australian Amateur Championship.
The thing is though, I didn’t like it. I was in genuine denial for a couple of days after that award. I was sure there’d been an admin error.
Even after I accepted the award I still couldn’t appreciate the beer, but I thought I probably should drop my prejudice about S-04 and acknowledge it could be useful in dark beer at least.
I started using it in porters and stouts. I convinced myself it was ok but I wasn’t thrilled with my beers. I just thought I was probably making some goofs with the brewing.
Then last year I got hold of some white labs 4 Irish ale and used that in a couple of beers. Oh my word, yes, that’s so much better.
The thing is, I can’t taste ‘s-04’ in the black beer the way I used to taste it in pale beer, but I still find the beer has a nasty element. I just didn’t recognise the yeast as the contributing element.
So I can’t use S-04 in dark beer anymore and I’m still not willing to face it in a pale ale. I decided to try it in a Brown ale. Well, I’m struggling with that one too, but I think I did a bad thing with the late addition hops so I’m willing to try again.
I really want to like S-04, and so many people swear by it that I still think it must be just my incompetence that is causing these unsatisfactory beers.
It clears brilliantly and sticks to the bottom like paste. I really prefer to make bottle conditioned beers most of the time and those characteristics are ideal for bottle conditioning. If only I could enjoy the taste.
For a long time I thought maybe I was fermenting it too warm so tried lower temps. I’m seeing people now talk about fermenting it above 20° and claiming it’s clean so I’m wondering if maybe I went the wrong direction with that. I’ve been trying to keep it at 17° and only raising temp when it slows down, so that it won’t go into premature flocculation. I found it’s pretty sensitive to a drop in temperature.
Anyway, the main point of all that long rave is that I’m kinda jealous of people who know how to get good beer using S-04 and I really wish I knew how to do it.

This. 100%.

 

[Miraculix]

Since I don't know what those would be off the top of my head I would need to go back and see. Is there a list of them somewhere? I brew a lot of Belgian and English styles with the occasional Hefeweisen and IPA tossed in. Are you thinking maybe I have another yeast hanging around from a previous brew? Never thought of that. It would have to be hearty. I have 2 fermenters that I kind of rotate. My favorite is the plastic Speidel 30L which I used for this porter. It's very Playskool-ish. Big colorful parts, easily dismantled and every nook and appurtenance accessible for easy cleaning. I make sure I don't scratch it. I'd be surprised if something lived on to rise again.

Some of the Belgian ones are diastatic, most of the saison yeasts and if you happen to have brewed with wb06, that one is diastatic too. Would make sense on all accounts!

 

[Miraculix]

This. 100%.

It is so funny to see that some people (including myself) seem not to taste this at all and some go full "baaaahhhh not this one again!" mode. Kind of like this wired asian fruit that some people perceive as vomit taste and smell (myself included again) and some people really enjoy it because it tastes pleasant to them. I made the test once in the UK office I was woking at. I placed a bowl of candy that was flavoured with that fruit. About 60% to 70% of the people spat it out imidiately, but the rest honestly came back for more.

 

[balrog]

I made the test once in the UK office I was woking at. I placed a bowl of candy that was flavoured with that

Oh, you're THAT guy.

 

[Snuffy]

Some of the Belgian ones are diastatic, most of the saison yeasts and if you happen to have brewed with wb06, that one is diastatic too. Would make sense on all accounts!

I've used T-58, BE-256, Munich, WLP-590, CS Saison, 3522 Ardennes, WLP-400. The only thing I can figure is maybe something hanging onto the rubber gasket at the bottom of the Tilt? I rinse it and then float it in the Starsan bucket before and after use but I don't normally hit it with PBW. Regardless, if some trace of previous yeast is sneaking in there, I like the results. Dry and higher ABV is cool by me.

 

[mac_1103]

It is so funny to see that some people (including myself) seem not to taste this at all and some go full "baaaahhhh not this one again!" mode.

de gustibus non disputandum est

Maybe we all should trade some of our S-04 brews and see what other people taste that we don't or don't taste that we do.

 

[corncob]

WHAT THE HELL MAN DID YOU PUT BISCUIT DOUGH IN THIS

 

[Snuffy]

WHAT THE HELL MAN DID YOU PUT BISCUIT DOUGH IN THIS

"Shake N Bake and I helped!"

 

[MaxStout]

Since I don't know what those would be off the top of my head I would need to go back and see. Is there a list of them somewhere?

Milk The Funk has a page that includes diastaticus strains. The page is extensive, but worth checking out.

 

[Snuffy]

How it clears and how it tastes in a week will tell the tale.

I hooked the porter keg up this morning so it would chill for tasting this evening. I purged it and set serving pressure and hooked it up and then ran a bit in a cup to clear the Starsan out of the line from the last flush. I debated tasting it right then because I was heading to work but I finally poured just a bit more in another cup and then got a phone call. After the call, I tasted it and it was super acidic and I was like, "NOOOOOOO!". This was going to be a dumper and I was never gonna live this down on here and I was going to have to just hope everybody forgot about it and.... and then I realized I was tasting the sample with the Starsan in it. The second pull was fine. Warm, but perfectly normal Porter flavors. <doh!>

 

[Snuffy]

This porter is fine, BTW. Smooth. It's a Deschutes "Black Butte" clone that Morebeer calls "Dark Hill". I will post a pic when I get one freshly poured sometime. Also, I did some research on "S-04 stuck fermentation" and there are loads of threads on HBT, Reddit, ProBrewer, Cooper's, thehomebrewforum, discussing issues with fast start and then a stall before reaching FG. Usually requires raising temps and rousing the yeast and patience to get it to finish. There's also some stuff about weak bottle conditioning with S-04. So it's not just me. I feel better now.

 

[Snuffy]

It is so funny to see that some people (including myself) seem not to taste this at all and some go full "baaaahhhh not this one again!" mode. Kind of like this wired asian fruit that some people perceive as vomit taste and smell (myself included again) and some people really enjoy it because it tastes pleasant to them. I made the test once in the UK office I was woking at. I placed a bowl of candy that was flavoured with that fruit. About 60% to 70% of the people spat it out imidiately, but the rest honestly came back for more.

Durian, maybe?

 

[Miraculix]

Durian, maybe?

I think that's the one!

 

[corncob]

I'm the world's biggest S-04 twang taster, but it works in a black beer, even for me. Just last night I was thinking about a good dry stout I did sometime last year and couldn't remember what yeast I used. I went back in my notes and sure enough--it was repitched S-04. The pale beers made with that same culture, before and after the stout, were the ones that finally convinced me that I can't escape the twang. But that stout was right on target.

Actually, this might put me in the second tier of S-04 twang tasters.

 

[Snuffy]

twang taster...<huh huh huhuhuh>