S-04 my new go to Pale Ale yeast

[worlddivides]

1.059 to 1.007 is 88% apparent attenuation. For a porter with a lot of specialty grains, that sounds suspiciously high, even if it wasn't S-04, which has a listed apparent attenuation of 74% to 82%. Now I'm not saaaaaying you have an infection, but that does seem extremely suspicious to me.

 

[Miraculix]

Storms last Sat took out power and internet. Power came back this morning and internet is still out. Working with cell phone hotspot. Kegging this S-04 Porter tomorrow, now that lights are on and I can see it again. No infection. Dropped 1.059 to 1.016 in 4 days. After 2 weeks, dropped to 1.015 and then over the next 2 weeks dropped to 1.007. I have no idea why. Temp was a steady 70F except for the last 2 days when the power was out and it crept up to 73F. I did give it a swirl after it sat at 1.016 for a week. I have no beef with S-04. Experience just tells me to give her some time to get finished. I like 1.007 a lot better for FG.

1.059 to 1.007 is 88% apparent attenuation. For a porter with a lot of specialty grains, that sounds suspiciously high, even if it wasn't S-04, which has a listed apparent attenuation of 74% to 82%. Now I'm not saaaaaying you have an infection, but that does seem extremely suspicious to me.

Well, then let me say it. You obviously have an infection in your brew.

 

[dmtaylor]

I am less convinced of infection. In any case, if it tastes good, then it IS good.

 

[Snuffy]

Well, then let me say it. You obviously have an infection in your brew.

Say away. Not so. I don't do infections. Just a slow bloomer. And not my first stall with S-04. Hit a plateau and then finished. And going to be a darn good porter.

 

[Snuffy]

1.059 to 1.007 is 88% apparent attenuation. For a porter with a lot of specialty grains, that sounds suspiciously high, even if it wasn't S-04, which has a listed apparent attenuation of 74% to 82%. Now I'm not saaaaaying you have an infection, but that does seem extremely suspicious to me.

And it was given a month to get there. Also, these are Tilt numbers which are indicators of activity or not at best. I will post progress of the brew later when it's ready to slurp.

 

[worlddivides]

And it was given a month to get there. Also, these are Tilt numbers which are indicators of activity or not at best. I will post progress of the brew later when it's ready to slurp.

That's also part of what makes me suspicious. Like I said, I've never had a bottle bomb with S-04, and I typically bottled at 14 days. I also have never had an overcarbonated beer with S-04, even after months in the bottle at 68 to 78F. If a beer bottled at 1.016 could have gone down to 1.007 in the fermenter, it should have gone that low in the bottle. And that'd be 4.5 CO2 volumes from the unfermented amounts alone. While I'm not necessarily going to the lengths of saying it's an infection, it is hard to believe what else could cause such abnormal activity. Outside of this thread, I've never really heard of S-04 as a slow, gradual fermenter.

 

[Miraculix]

And it was given a month to get there. Also, these are Tilt numbers which are indicators of activity or not at best. I will post progress of the brew later when it's ready to slurp.

What are the na ppms in the water you used?

 

[Snuffy]

What are the na ppms in the water you used?

NA+ is 3.61 in my local water profile

 

[Snuffy]

That's also part of what makes me suspicious. Like I said, I've never had a bottle bomb with S-04, and I typically bottled at 14 days. I also have never had an overcarbonated beer with S-04, even after months in the bottle at 68 to 78F. If a beer bottled at 1.016 could have gone down to 1.007 in the fermenter, it should have gone that low in the bottle. And that'd be 4.5 CO2 volumes from the unfermented amounts alone. While I'm not necessarily going to the lengths of saying it's an infection, it is hard to believe what else could cause such abnormal activity. Outside of this thread, I've never really heard of S-04 as a slow, gradual fermenter.

Suspicious? Of what? That I have an infection of some sort and won't admit it? I just kegged it. Smelled great. Looked fine. A bit thin for a porter but I imagine it could be a bit dry. I did not taste it. Probably should have. I filled 3 bottles using fizz drops and will try that in a couple of weeks. I don't have a set time frame to bottle. It gets bottled when I'm convinced it's finished. 2 weeks is a normal time frame for kegging tho.

 

[worlddivides]

Suspicious? Of what? That I have an infection of some sort and won't admit it?

More that you have an infection of some sort and don't realize it.

 

[Snuffy]

More that you have an infection of some sort and don't realize it.

oh. ok. If I do, it's a good one.

 

[day_trippr]

 

[Halfakneecap]

And it was given a month to get there. Also, these are Tilt numbers which are indicators of activity or not at best. I will post progress of the brew later when it's ready to slurp.

More that you have an infection of some sort and don't realize it.

Pretty much all my beers go under 1.010, regardless of yeast strain. I like drier beers and mash low. I wouldn't be worried at 1.007.

 

[Snuffy]

Pretty much all my beers go under 1.010, regardless of yeast strain. I like drier beers and mash low. I wouldn't be worried at 1.007.

Yeah. I've had a saison go from 1.058 to 0.997 in 18 days. The WLP590 starter was kind of a dud so I double pitched with pack of Cellar Science Saison, but that was kind of an outlier. I think the rub in this situation is it's S-04 which is considered more predictable. My normal FG regardless of yeast is under 1.010 unless it's a stout with lactose or something. I never pay much attention to efficiencies. The whole reason I let this go a month was because it was unusual to finish as high as 1.016. I do agree that late drop of 9 points would be alarming to bottlers. That was my whole point. But apparently that's not acceptable with S-04. So I'll just enjoy my putrid swill and STFU.

 

[redrocker652002]

I think this is a great discussion, especially for me as I have not used S04 yet but seems I might in my next pale ale. If your results end up with good beer then not much should be said except that it is good beer and you dig it. With that said, I think some are just saying that what you experienced is out of the norm for them. But, maybe something in your process or ingredients or something that made this happen and it is your new norm. Nothing wrong with that, this is why we share info. I, for one, have learned a ton on this site from people that I will probably never meet, and the input I have gotten has given me the knowledge to keep pushing my envelope. Lagers were a huge step for me as I really did not understand the process. So, I say, enjoy the info as it is all in the part of the community we call HBT. Now, Rock on and let's keep this going.

 

[mac_1103]

I have gotten 85% or higher AA from S-04 a couple of times. There's no reason it can't happen if you make a highly fermentable wort. It's not going to stop just because it gets to 82% if there's still glucose or maltose left in the fermenter.

 

[day_trippr]

fwiw, I've always used S04 in my chocolate stout and the latest batch has gone from 1.108 to 1.017 over ~two weeks for an apparent attenuation of 83%. That's actually within the "normal" range for this brew...

Cheers!

 

[worlddivides]

fwiw, I've always used S04 in my chocolate stout and the latest batch has gone from 1.108 to 1.017 over ~two weeks for an apparent attenuation of 83%. That's actually within the "normal" range for this brew...

Cheers!

Right. The main thing about this that is odd isn't 83% in two weeks, but 88% attenuation over almost 4 weeks with the final 9 points dropped in the last 2 weeks. If he had had 88% attenuation within the first two weeks, I would have thought "That's pretty high attenuation for S-04, but not unthinkable."

A saison going from 1.058 to 0.997 in 18 days isn't unusual. Traditional saison yeasts are specifically the kind that keep fermenting very slowly over the span of about a month or so. But an English ale going from 1.059 to 1.007 in 4 weeks (with a decent amount of that drop near the end) does strike me as very unusual. While I keep saying I'm not necessarily saying that it's infected, I'm trying to think what else could cause that in a yeast like S-04.

That said, if it tastes fine and is being kegged, then there shouldn't be any worries, because even if it is infected with something, the cold temperatures should stop the gravity from falling any further.

 

[Snuffy]

This keg will condition at cellar temp for at least 2 weeks. I don’t chill until the day before it’s tapped. I like to give my organisms time to fully mature and reach a complex aroma and flavor profile somewhere between Limburger and asparagus pee.

 

[Miraculix]

Yeah. I've had a saison go from 1.058 to 0.997 in 18 days. The WLP590 starter was kind of a dud so I double pitched with pack of Cellar Science Saison, but that was kind of an outlier. I think the rub in this situation is it's S-04 which is considered more predictable. My normal FG regardless of yeast is under 1.010 unless it's a stout with lactose or something. I never pay much attention to efficiencies. The whole reason I let this go a month was because it was unusual to finish as high as 1.016. I do agree that late drop of 9 points would be alarming to bottlers. That was my whole point. But apparently that's not acceptable with S-04. So I'll just enjoy my putrid swill and STFU.

Did you maybe brew this season recently?

 

[corncob]

How it clears and how it tastes in a week will tell the tale.

 

[Snuffy]

Did you maybe brew this season recently?

Brewed the saison July of last year. I sense you suggesting it was exposed to something unknown as well? I can understand your logic. I'm just relating my experience as it occurred and is documented at the Grainfather site. I have detected no pellicles. No off flavors. No odd smells. No weird acidity. All my gravity readings are reported by Tilt and graphed in the app. Otherwise I would never have a gravity reading because I don't manually test anything. The normal FG on everything I brew usually ends around 1.009 to 1.006 regardless of OG which is usually somewhere between 1.050 and 1.070. Again, all reported by Tilt. When something stalls at 1.016 it makes me wait a while longer. That number could be off by several points either way as compared to a hydrometer or refractometer.

As for cleanliness practices, my first step before brewing is to take a shower. I then mix 5 gallons of Starsan in a muck bucket. Every item that does not get boiled, and even some that do, is soaked in PBW after it is used and then submerged or pumped thru with Starsan and dried before it is put away. On brew day, every utensil, hose, valve, plate, flask, packet, lid, filter, screen, geegaw, gadget, doodad and thingamajig is submerged in the bucket for at least half an hour. Fermenters are dismantled and pressed into the muck bucket to fill with Starsan and are washed like a skunked terrier. Plastics are washed with soft cloths only. Electronic thermometer is dipped and air dried. If aeration is used, the hose and stone are soaked and then run in the bucket before submerging in wort. Packaging day is similar. Keg lid, posts and tubes are dismantled and soaked in PBW and then Starsan. Bottles and caps get the same treatment. When reassembled, starsan is pumped thru the out post and tube with CO2 then the keg is inverted and dripped dry. Hands are washed and submerged in Starsan repeatedly. Surfaces are wiped down with wet Starsan rag. Towels used are bleached when washed.

The point is, if something stinky has made it past my regimen, then get ready. It's coming for us all. I'm not sure what is giving these numbers that don't add up for attenuation or efficiency and whatever else, but I would be willing to bet my entire brewing equipment setup that it isn't bacteria or mold or mildew or gnats or fungus or nose hair. Ok... I'm not certain about the nose hair, but then, who is?

 

[redrocker652002]

This keg will condition at cellar temp for at least 2 weeks. I don’t chill until the day before it’s tapped. I like to give my organisms time to fully mature and reach a complex aroma and flavor profile somewhere between Limburger and asparagus pee.

I am looking forward to the review of your beer. Asparagus pee, while I have never tasted it, would probably be a very pungent taste as the asparagus itself has a very intense reaction to my pee. LOL

 

[Snuffy]

I am looking forward to the review of your beer. Asparagus pee, while I have never tasted it, would probably be a very pungent taste as the asparagus itself has a very intense reaction to my pee. LOL

I aim for freshness.

 

[Bazza McKenzie]

I’ve used S-04 sporadically since sometime so long ago I don’t remember when it was. Definitely used it early years of the century but I feel like I used it back in the late ‘90s too.
Back then I recall all the beers I used it with had a very distinctive taste. It seemed wrong to me. I was a convert to Wyeast and reculturing yeast from Cooper’s bottle conditioned ale since around ‘94 but tried S-04 when it was suggested by the LHBS proprietor. After a few tries I gave up as all the beer tasted strange to me.
I guess that experience coloured all my subsequent attempts to brew with the yeast. It’s a very popular yeast so I assume that I just don’t know how to use it properly. Every so often I get curious and try again. I never really like the result.
A couple years ago I used it in an Imperial Stout. It was a group project where 4 of us brewed 25 litres and filled a 100 litre barrel. There was an agreed-upon recipe which used S-04.
Turned out there was still some space in the barrel, so I brewed another 10 litres, but one of the other group members got there first so I just bottled my little batch.
That beer I kept went on to win best of show at the Australian Amateur Championship.
The thing is though, I didn’t like it. I was in genuine denial for a couple of days after that award. I was sure there’d been an admin error.
Even after I accepted the award I still couldn’t appreciate the beer, but I thought I probably should drop my prejudice about S-04 and acknowledge it could be useful in dark beer at least.
I started using it in porters and stouts. I convinced myself it was ok but I wasn’t thrilled with my beers. I just thought I was probably making some goofs with the brewing.
Then last year I got hold of some white labs 4 Irish ale and used that in a couple of beers. Oh my word, yes, that’s so much better.
The thing is, I can’t taste ‘s-04’ in the black beer the way I used to taste it in pale beer, but I still find the beer has a nasty element. I just didn’t recognise the yeast as the contributing element.
So I can’t use S-04 in dark beer anymore and I’m still not willing to face it in a pale ale. I decided to try it in a Brown ale. Well, I’m struggling with that one too, but I think I did a bad thing with the late addition hops so I’m willing to try again.
I really want to like S-04, and so many people swear by it that I still think it must be just my incompetence that is causing these unsatisfactory beers.
It clears brilliantly and sticks to the bottom like paste. I really prefer to make bottle conditioned beers most of the time and those characteristics are ideal for bottle conditioning. If only I could enjoy the taste.
For a long time I thought maybe I was fermenting it too warm so tried lower temps. I’m seeing people now talk about fermenting it above 20° and claiming it’s clean so I’m wondering if maybe I went the wrong direction with that. I’ve been trying to keep it at 17° and only raising temp when it slows down, so that it won’t go into premature flocculation. I found it’s pretty sensitive to a drop in temperature.
Anyway, the main point of all that long rave is that I’m kinda jealous of people who know how to get good beer using S-04 and I really wish I knew how to do it.

 

[Miraculix]

I’ve used S-04 sporadically since sometime so long ago I don’t remember when it was. Definitely used it early years of the century but I feel like I used it back in the late ‘90s too.
Back then I recall all the beers I used it with had a very distinctive taste. It seemed wrong to me. I was a convert to Wyeast and reculturing yeast from Cooper’s bottle conditioned ale since around ‘94 but tried S-04 when it was suggested by the LHBS proprietor. After a few tries I gave up as all the beer tasted strange to me.
I guess that experience coloured all my subsequent attempts to brew with the yeast. It’s a very popular yeast so I assume that I just don’t know how to use it properly. Every so often I get curious and try again. I never really like the result.
A couple years ago I used it in an Imperial Stout. It was a group project where 4 of us brewed 25 litres and filled a 100 litre barrel. There was an agreed-upon recipe which used S-04.
Turned out there was still some space in the barrel, so I brewed another 10 litres, but one of the other group members got there first so I just bottled my little batch.
That beer I kept went on to win best of show at the Australian Amateur Championship.
The thing is though, I didn’t like it. I was in genuine denial for a couple of days after that award. I was sure there’d been an admin error.
Even after I accepted the award I still couldn’t appreciate the beer, but I thought I probably should drop my prejudice about S-04 and acknowledge it could be useful in dark beer at least.
I started using it in porters and stouts. I convinced myself it was ok but I wasn’t thrilled with my beers. I just thought I was probably making some goofs with the brewing.
Then last year I got hold of some white labs 4 Irish ale and used that in a couple of beers. Oh my word, yes, that’s so much better.
The thing is, I can’t taste ‘s-04’ in the black beer the way I used to taste it in pale beer, but I still find the beer has a nasty element. I just didn’t recognise the yeast as the contributing element.
So I can’t use S-04 in dark beer anymore and I’m still not willing to face it in a pale ale. I decided to try it in a Brown ale. Well, I’m struggling with that one too, but I think I did a bad thing with the late addition hops so I’m willing to try again.
I really want to like S-04, and so many people swear by it that I still think it must be just my incompetence that is causing these unsatisfactory beers.
It clears brilliantly and sticks to the bottom like paste. I really prefer to make bottle conditioned beers most of the time and those characteristics are ideal for bottle conditioning. If only I could enjoy the taste.
For a long time I thought maybe I was fermenting it too warm so tried lower temps. I’m seeing people now talk about fermenting it above 20° and claiming it’s clean so I’m wondering if maybe I went the wrong direction with that. I’ve been trying to keep it at 17° and only raising temp when it slows down, so that it won’t go into premature flocculation. I found it’s pretty sensitive to a drop in temperature.
Anyway, the main point of all that long rave is that I’m kinda jealous of people who know how to get good beer using S-04 and I really wish I knew how to do it.

One or two years ago, something changed with that yeast. We don't know what, but it seems to almost be a different strain. Much cleaner now. Maybe try it in a pale again. It's one of my favourites, also for darks.

But I must admit, for dark beer, it was always my favourite. Even before the mysterious change that might have or might no have happened.

 

[balrog]

it with had a very distinctive taste

And that could simply be "it".
Sometimes, it is simply a matter of personal taste.

 

[Snuffy]

Anyway, the main point of all that long rave is that I’m kinda jealous of people who know how to get good beer using S-04 and I really wish I knew how to do it.

I think you ARE doing it. And well. It just expresses a flavor you don't like. I was a Notty fan for anything remotely malty for years. That stuff is a no-nonsense workhorse of a yeast, but it leaves the flavor work to the rest of the recipe. I like the extra something brought into the show by S-04. I've heard it described as "fruity" and I don't really get that, but I have no better word for it. It's that missing element that makes an English style homebrew taste more like the beer I'm trying to replicate.

 

[ncbrewer]

Snuffy - Have you used a diastaticus yeast in that same fermenter recently?

 

[worlddivides]

Snuffy - Have you used a diastaticus yeast in that same fermenter recently?

His sanitization method sounds like it'd probably be enough to kill off any of the saison yeast that remained, but that would explain what's going on perfectly. The extremely slow fermentation with a yeast that typically finishes quite quickly and the extremely high attenuation for that specific yeast strain. Especially if it was the diastaticus yeast that managed to make a beer with a final gravity below 1.000. The main problem is that diastaticus yeasts aren't as resilient as, say, lactobacillus or pediococcus, but if it were either of those, you would assume the flavor would be affected, which it does not seem to be (and if they had brought it down from 1.016 to 1.007, you'd expect some noticeable acetic acid and lactic acid). I'm wondering if time will help shine light on what the cause might be.