Running 2 elements simultaniously

[BadNewsBrewery]

Long time stalker, first time poster.... I recently moved from San Diego to Maryland and sold all my brewing equipment to my brew partner before the move. Seeing as how I'm already in need of new equipment, why not upgrade? I am in love with the idea of going all electric, HERMS, and possibly throwing some electrically actuated valves into the process down the road. Before I get to all that though, I've run into a fundamental confusion.

If I'm heating the HLT to maintain temperature in the MLT through the HEX, I will have to wait some period of time to bring the HLT up to sparge temperature before sparging. In theory, I could be using the BK to heat water, pump that into the HLT to raise the temperature, and go straight to the sparge. The down side however is that this would require both the BK element and the HLT element to be on at the same time. I could also see the need to run both if I wanted to brew two batches back-to-back and have one in boil while the second was mashing.

By my math, running a 4500W element at 240V, I'd be pulling just under 19 amps each. If my panel is supplied by a 50amp breaker at the main panel run to a 50amp GFCI spa panel, I should in theory have enough juice to run it all safely - but I haven't found anyone else running this set up.

What painfully obvious thing am I missing, or could this actually work?

Thanks, and I look forward to contributing to this group and posting progress when I eventually get to assembling everything. As an engineer, I'm all about over designing before I dive in.

-Kevin

 

[ACbrewer]

Well the only thing I can think of is that there is resistance in the cord, so the longer and thinner your line, the more current it will pull. I've seen this happen with saws that at 14amps can run just fine if they are plugged into the wall, but one even a 25 foot cord trip the breaker. IF put on a heavy duty extention cord, they can still run, although I usually try to find a 20 amp to use.

but if your math is right, it seems like it would be ok to me. Does a GFI trip if they cord begins to heat? That would seem like the first indication of stress on the system.

 

[Khemikal]

I'm thinking this is the reason Kal has designed the 50A kit. It allows for back-to-back brews by allowing you to heat up water in the BK while using your MLT/HLT at the same time. I believe you are on the right track with using a 50A circuit. Two 4500w elements at 240v will pull 37.5A. That is below your 40A allowance (80% rule) of a 50A breaker and still leaves a few amps for the rest of your setup (pumps, pids, etc). Also of note is that you are only pulling the heavy load during the overlap period of running both elements. The rest of the time you will be way under safe limits of the circuit.

 

[BadNewsBrewery]

I plan to run 6/3 from the main to the spa panel (maybe a 6' run) and the 6/3 from the spa panel to the main, maybe 10-15'. I believe #6 wire should be good up to 55A so hopefully the breaker trips before the wire maxes out.
-Kevin

 

[mateomtb]

You will be fine running 2 elements on the 50amps plus a pump etc. I would recommend using a 5500w in the HLT and the 4500w in the boil which will work on 50amp with no issue. You won't regret having the dual element ability. Being able to heat strike water in one kettle and the HEX at the same time is fantastic. You can make your own decision about the often cited 80% rule which in my opinion (and others) is not valid for our use case. Your 6awg runs will be plenty.

 

[BadNewsBrewery]

Curious, why the weaker element in the BK with the higher temperature demand?

 

[mateomtb]

Curious, why the weaker element in the BK with the higher temperature demand?

The hex is where you need the quicker reaction time, like bumping up to mash out. When you transfer to boil you already have hot liquid and it goes to boil really quick and you'll only need to run that element at 50-60% to maintain. I have 2 elements in my boil and I only use them both at the same time to speed heat strike water, I've found both unnecessary for actual boiling.

 

[BadNewsBrewery]

Makes sense to me. Getting the HEX water nailed is the priority and you're right, getting the wort to boil should be relatively easy after sparge. Sounds like I'm on the right path, though I may stick with 4500W in both to hold on to that safety factor, especially if 4500w can do the job as others seem to have experienced on this board.
-Kevin

 

[grandequeso]

I would not worry about the time it takes to heat your sparge water unless you're building a system over 30gals. It doesn take long at all to ramp up the temp of the water in your hlt. Maybe 5 to 10 mins. if time is a concern. You can do a temp calculation for your strike water. refill your hlt then dial it in to your mash temp. when you hit your temp start your recirc. this will only take maybe 10mins. Your mash would not have lost more than one or two degs max if any in that short amount of time.

 

[PLOVE]

I routinely run 2X 5500W elements (1 in BK, 1 in HLT), two march pumps, and a BCS-460 at the same time. No problem on a 50AMP circuit with GFI protection (spa disconnect). Not sure if you could add in a bunch of valve actuators, but they probably don't draw very much, and wouldn't likely be on at the same time as everything. Just make sure you're using the appropriately sized wiring.
P

 

[BadNewsBrewery]

PLOVE,
That's good news then, I'm running 6ga to the disconnect and panel and then the standard wiring from there out. I'll give it a shot. Thanks!
-Kevin

 

[lschiavo]

What size is your hlt?

I use a 1/2 barrel keg and heat the entire volume to strike temp. It takes about half that volume to mash in for a 10 gal batch. I then add water to the hlt to my sparge volume. This is usually only a few gallons and tempers the extra strike water to near mash temp. It only takes a few minutes to heat the hlt to mash temp and begin circulating.

As others have said, you will be fine running both elements on a 50A feed.

Or, you could run 50A to the hlt with two 5500W elements and 30A to the boil kettle That's my latest upgrade and I am loving it. I don't even have time to prep the grain before my strike water is heated anymore.

 

[BadNewsBrewery]

HLT is still being sourced but I would like to use another keggle. Could go with something smaller but it'll come down to what I can find. I think I'll stick with the single 5500w in the HLT and a 4500w in the BK, should allow me to run both at the same time if needed without tripping the breaker. Your idea sounds great but I don't have the power to run multiple 220 circuits.
-Kevin

 

[lschiavo]

You'll be just fine with one element in the hlt. My main point was, if you have the volume in the hlt, fill it, heat it all to strike temp, mash in and then use the leftover strike water tempered with cold water to get your hlt to mash temp. The time to heat the hlt/herms is then negligible. I guess I am assuming your hex coil will be in the hlt...where else would you put it?

The hlt is the heart of the brewery. Do not underestimate it's power young padawan