Running 1600 Watt element (L1) and 2500 Watt element (L2) on 30 AMP Breaker (240 V)

[lashack]

I have a 3 vessel system currently running 3 elements (1600, 1650, and 5500 watt elements) on a 30 AMP breaker. I run the 16xx Watt elements (one on L1 and one on L2 for 240V wiring) that I run at the same time. I have no issues running this configuration. I use a switch to switch 240V to the 5500 Watt element that only runs by itself.

I am working on upgrading one of the 1650 Watt elements to a 2500 Watt element (120 V). Here is my understanding of the AMPs being pulled from this setup.

L1 - 1600 Watt element (13.33 AMPS)
L2 - 2500 Watt element (20.83 AMP)

That means that the neutral will carry the difference and total AMPs would be around 7.5 AMPs, which would total around 28.33 AMPs.

Is my understanding correct on the load the 30 AMP breaker will see? Is this configuration possible? I do have 2 pumps that run, I plan to put both on L1.

Please any guidance would be helpful?

Here is another post I made with details about my control panel and WIRING DIAGRAM.

 

[HighVoltageMan!]

That means that the neutral will carry the difference and total AMPs would be around 7.5 AMPs, which would total around 28.33 AMPs.

Not sure how you are calculating your current flow. If you are running a 2500 watt element on one leg of the 240 volt 30 amp breaker and neutral (120Vac), the neutral would see the full current of 2500 watts (21 amps) and the hot leg of the would see the same current. The unused leg of the breaker would see no current providing the 5500 watt is not in the circuit. If you only run the 2500 watt without the 5500 watt it's fine, both would trip the breaker.

It might be better to use a 240/2500 watt element. Higher voltage means lower current for the same wattage and smaller gauge wires.

 

[lashack]

Not sure how you are calculating your current flow. If you are running a 2500 watt element on one leg of the 240 volt 30 amp breaker and neutral (120Vac), the neutral would see the full current of 2500 watts (21 amps) and the hot leg of the would see the same current. The unused leg of the breaker would see no current providing the 5500 watt is not in the circuit. If you only run the 2500 watt without the 5500 watt it's fine, both would trip the breaker.

It might be better to use a 240/2500 watt element. Higher voltage means lower current for the same wattage and smaller gauge wires.

@HighVoltageMan! The 5500 Watt element is not in the equation for my original question. It ONLY ever runs by itself full 240 V power to it.

My current controller is setup to ONLY run the 2 x 16xx Watt elements OR run the 5500 Watt element (3 POS selector switch) . This is my current setup. The 5500 Watt element only ever runs by itself. The other 2 elements only run when the 5500 Watt element is not running.

I have 2 elements that run at the same time. One is 1650 Watt and the other is 1600 Watt, they are running on L1 and L2 respectively.

My question is, if I want to upgrade the 1650 Watt element to a 2500 Watt element. Can I run the 2500 Watt element AND the 1600 Watt element at the same time on a 30 Amp breaker? One element would run on the L1 and the other element on L2. (just like my current setup - the only difference is ONE of the elements is larger wattrs 1650 -> 2500 Watt)

 

[HighVoltageMan!]

@HighVoltageMan! The 5500 Watt element is not in the equation for my original question. It ONLY ever runs by itself full 240 V power to it.

My current controller is setup to ONLY run the 2 x 16xx Watt elements OR run the 5500 Watt element (3 POS selector switch) . This is my current setup. The 5500 Watt element only ever runs by itself. The other 2 elements only run when the 5500 Watt element is not running.

I have 2 elements that run at the same time. One is 1650 Watt and the other is 1600 Watt, they are running on L1 and L2 respectively.

My question is, if I want to upgrade the 1650 Watt element to a 2500 Watt element. Can I run the 2500 Watt element AND the 1600 Watt element at the same time on a 30 Amp breaker? One element would run on the L1 and the other element on L2. (just like my current setup - the only difference is ONE of the elements is larger wattrs 1650 -> 2500 Watt)

Yes. But keep in mind that all the current will pass through the neutral for both loads, that would be @34-35 amps. The neutral needs to be an 8 gauge wire, up from a 10 gauge. The breaker itself has 2 poles. Each pole would carry only the current of the one element it was providing voltage to. One leg (or pole) would show 21 amps and the other would show 14 amps. There will be a current imbalance, but that's not a concern.

You could put the elements in series across the 240 volt breaker, but both elements would have to be the same resistance (wattage) so the voltage drop across the elements doesn't exceed rated voltage, so that's out.

 

[lashack]

So It's not possible?

If I understand what you are saying - in theory I could have 2 x 2500 W elements - since the load is balanced it would have 21 AMP load on the breaker (or 42 AMP load?).

My understanding was that L1 would carry 21 amps and L2 would carry 14 amps and since they are imbalanced the neutral will carry the difference (21 - 14 = 7 amp). So in total the curcuit would see 21 + 7 amps ~ 28 amps. Which is less than the 30 amp breaker.

Am I way off in my understanding?

 

[hungupdown]

Soes L1 and L2, mean this a two phase supply, rather than single phase?

 

[lashack]

It is a single phase (split-phase?), 4 wires (L1, L2, Neutral, and Ground). It is connected to the breaker box with a 2-pole GCFI 30 AMP breaker, delivering 240 volts across both poles (L1 and L2).

 

[HighVoltageMan!]

So It's not possible?

If I understand what you are saying - in theory I could have 2 x 2500 W elements - since the load is balanced it would have 21 AMP load on the breaker (or 42 AMP load?).

My understanding was that L1 would carry 21 amps and L2 would carry 14 amps and since they are imbalanced the neutral will carry the difference (21 - 14 = 7 amp). So in total the curcuit would see 21 + 7 amps ~ 28 amps. Which is less than the 30 amp breaker.

Am I way off in my understanding?

I stand corrected. The fact that the two legs are 180 degrees out of phase means that when one load has a negative voltage the other is in a positive state, so you are correct, provided the branches or legs are 180 degrees out of phase.

So, yes you are correct to believe the current on the neutral would be the difference between the two.

Sorry for the confusion, but at least it help me jar loose some old electrical theory. It’s known as a multi wire branch circuit.

 

[lashack]

Here is what ChatGBT is answering me to help better my understanding.

 

[whoaru99]

L1 - 1600 Watt element (13.33 AMPS)
L2 - 2500 Watt element (20.83 AMP)

That means that the neutral will carry the difference and total AMPs would be around 7.5 AMPs, which would total around 28.33 AMPs.

Is my understanding correct on the load the 30 AMP breaker will see? Is this configuration possible? I do have 2 pumps that run, I plan to put both on L1.

Please any guidance would be helpful?

The neutral will see the difference, yes.

The breaker will see (rounded) 13A on one pole and 21A on the other pole. Either/both are well below the rating of the 30A breaker (which is 30A per pole).

In a way, you can look at the breaker to be 2 circuits @ 120V x 30A = 7200W, or one circuit at 240V x 30A which is also 7200W. Either way it is 30A per pole.

The breaker doesn't see it as a summed load as you indicate.

The pumps and such would be better paired with lower side load as you mention, to somewhat more equally balance the circuits

 

[Bobby_M]

It looks like everything got worked out in the end, but just out of pure curiosity, how are you leveraging these different elements in your system at the various phases of the brew day?

 

[lashack]

It looks like everything got worked out in the end, but just out of pure curiosity, how are you leveraging these different elements in your system at the various phases of the brew day?

Thanks Bobby for responding. You’re always a big help.

Typically I start with 3-4 gallons in MLT (1600 element in RIMS tube) and another 6-7 in HLT (new 2500 watt) element. Mash & drain into BK, then 2 batch sparges with water from HLT, draining both batch sparges into BK.

Then boil in BK with 5500 element.

I could easily heat all my HLT water in my BK first then transfer it into HLT and MLT once it’s up to temp. But I prefer to just portion out correct amount of mash water and HLT water instead of heating in BK then transferring from BK.

Also, I might end up moving to 10 gallons batches and want HLT element to be able to heat up to mashing out temps easily.

 

[HighVoltageMan!]

I don't believe a GFIC will work on the setup.

 

[lashack]

I don't believe a GFIC will work on the setup.

Could you elaborate why you think GFCI breaker wouldn’t work for this setup?

 

[whoaru99]

I don't believe a GFIC will work on the setup.

Your thoughts why not?

 

[Bobby_M]

I don't believe a GFIC will work on the setup.

It works as designed. GFCI compares currents using L1, L2, and N and makes sure that nothing goes missing (into your body).

 

[HighVoltageMan!]

It will work if the 30 amp breaker is a GFIC with a neutral. If the a GFIC is put on the individual 120 vac legs of the circuit, it won't.

 

[lashack]

In my setup, yes it's a 2-Pole, 30 AMP breaker with a "pigtail" Neutral wire. Like this one:

 

[whoaru99]

It will work if the 30 amp breaker is a GFIC with a neutral. If the a GFIC is put on the individual 120 vac legs of the circuit, it won't.

Single pole GFI breakers have neutral connection, and for a 240V or 120/240V circuit would need tied handles to ensure common trip when/if two single pole breakers were used.

Should still work, IMO/AFAIK.

 

[doug293cz]

Single pole GFI breakers have neutral connection, and for a 240V or 120/240V circuit would need tied handles to ensure common trip when/if two single pole breakers were used.

Should still work, IMO/AFAIK.

A double pole 240V GFCI breaker will work just fine in OP's application, but paired single pole GFCI breakers would not (because the neutral current would be split between the two breakers, and not balance for either of them.)

Brew on

 

[doug293cz]

I don't believe a GFIC will work on the setup.

Yes it will, if it is a properly connected two pole 240V GFCI breaker.

Brew on