Ruined Cider Issues

[WillJMA]

Hey Guys,

Does anyone know why i'm having trouble making large batches of cider? I have a 25 litre wide necked plastic fermentation bucket when no matter how much i sterilise, clean and boil away any potential bacteria I cant get a good brew out of it.

I fill with 25 litres of pasteurised apple juice, and a couple of tsps of wine yeast. 2 weeks later - sour cider everytime.

This doesn't happen if i use my small one gallon glass demijohns. The cider comes out as it should. But as i only have two glass DJ's i need something larger.

Is the reason for sour cider to do with hygiene? Using plastic?

Any help would be appreciated

 

[Yooper]

Hey Guys,

Does anyone know why i'm having trouble making large batches of cider? I have a 25 litre wide necked plastic fermentation bucket when no matter how much i sterilise, clean and boil away any potential bacteria I cant get a good brew out of it.

I fill with 25 litres of pasteurised apple juice, and a couple of tsps of wine yeast. 2 weeks later - sour cider everytime.

This doesn't happen if i use my small one gallon glass demijohns. The cider comes out as it should. But as i only have two glass DJ's i need something larger.

Is the reason for sour cider to do with hygiene? Using plastic?

Any help would be appreciated

Headspace is probably the contributor. Once fermentation slows, the cider should be moved to a demijohn or carboy with very little headspace, and topped up. You can use plastic fermenters or carboys, no problem.

 

[WillJMA]

That sounds possible, it's something ive never worried about before. I do have quite a few inches of headspace in the large fermentor.

So during primary fermentation you would suggest minimal headspace? How long after primary fermentation to leave in the fermentor?

I have a full bar setup with 50Litre kegs which i use to carbonate, so i don't need to worry about secondary but i never actually get that far.

 

[Yooper]

That sounds possible, it's something ive never worried about before. I do have quite a few inches of headspace in the large fermentor.

So during primary fermentation you would suggest minimal headspace? How long after primary fermentation to leave in the fermentor?

I have a full bar setup with 50Litre kegs which i use to carbonate, so i don't need to worry about secondary but i never actually get that far.

My primary tends to go about 5 days for most low OG ciders and almost all of my wines. Headspace is fine during active fermentation, and I even stir my higher OG wines and ciders to degas some of the c02 out of them during that time.

Ideally, I'd rack to secondary when the SG is about 1.010 or so, but sometimes it goes quickly and I"m below that by day 5-7. Then I rack to secondary, and top up if needed.

 

[WillJMA]

You stir during fermentation? If i so much as move the airlock on mine i'm guaranteed to infect and then it starts smelling off. Every time.

Do you have a basic procedure for simple cider? Bottled apple juice from the supermarket (pasteurised no sulfates), add to the sanitised fermentor (any headspace?). Add sachet of dry cider yeast, screw on lid with airlock (filled with vodka) and leave at room temperature.

I'm using a heat belt on some brews, as the temp here can easily drop to 10C/50F during summer, which does make for an unpredictable rise and fall in temp.

Perhaps a cold ferment? Just leave the room temperature to do the work.

 

[madscientist451]

A slow ferment at 50F degrees is fine for cider. I've never been happy with cider made from juice from the store, but that's my personal taste.
Not sure what to say about your cider turning sour in two weeks. I don't even taste mine for like 6-8 weeks. What are using to sanitize?
What off smells are you getting?

 

[oljimmy]

It's important to note that just about any North American apple juice from any source, store-bought or otherwise, is going to be sour when you ferment it out fully. That isn't an infection, it's malic acid, which exists in fairly high levels for most NA apples.

The key is to get fermentation to stop long before 1.000... Probably in the 1.008-1.015 range. That's done by racking or backsweetening+pasteurization, which you can read about on here. For now, I'd at least consider the possibility that you don't have infections.

 

[WillJMA]

I'm not in North America, i'm from the United Kingdom.
Our apple juice tends to be 'from concentrate', and like i mentioned if i do it in small demijohns (1 gallon) i have no problem at all and it turns out quite nice cider. It's when i decide to throw 25 litres into my large bucket, basically it's always ruined.

Stopping ferment early could be a thought, but the problem being the alcohol strength? I find the apple juice has an SG almost always of 1.032 so if i ended at 1.008 it would be around 3%? Whereas usually when i let it finish and settle at 0.990 i'm getting 5.5 ish.

 

[oljimmy]

Ah, I see, sorry I missed that bit. UK store-bought is probably pretty high in malic, too. In any case, if the sourness you're tasting is like the kind you get from a sour candy only without the sugar, it's malic acid, and not an infection. Not sure what would account for the difference in fermenter sizes having an effect, that's pretty bizarre!

1.032 is very low for apple juice... I've never pressed a batch lower than 1.042. You could just add some corn sugar or apple juice concentrate at the outset to boost the final ABV. That said, if you're anywhere near the west part of England or even somewhere like Herefordshire, you're within an hour's drive of cider orchards that will sell very cheap fresh-pressed juice that is of the highest quality for cidermaking!

 

[WillJMA]

Haha nope im in the North of England, West Yorkshire, we do have some good orchards around here too though but to be honest i don't make enough cider to justify buying any quantity, the carton stuff turns out nice for me - sometimes!

Thanks for the info, i'm going to do a few tests with different sanitisers and different juices and yeasts so will see how that goes.

 

[ericbw]

Are you saying that you do a 1 gallon batch that finishes at .995 and IS NOT sour, but when you do a larger batch it's sour?

I think anything at .995 would be dry/tart/sour.

 

[WillJMA]

Are you saying that you do a 1 gallon batch that finishes at .995 and IS NOT sour, but when you do a larger batch it's sour?

I think anything at .995 would be dry/tart/sour.

Yes, i usually leave it to ferment out, and then settle and it seems fine. i then siphon to secondary and settle again.

Are you saying stop the fermentation at around 1? 1.01? Whats the easiest way to do that? I would have thought to put it in the fridge, get it very cold and the yeast should settle?

The problem with that is i usually bottle carbonate in champagne bottles. Once its .990 i top up with sugar and more yeast and leave it to carbonate then disgorge, but if i left it at .01 then it's gonna be way over carbd.

 

[ericbw]

Yes, i usually leave it to ferment out, and then settle and it seems fine. i then siphon to secondary and settle again.

Are you saying stop the fermentation at around 1? 1.01? Whats the easiest way to do that? I would have thought to put it in the fridge, get it very cold and the yeast should settle?

The problem with that is i usually bottle carbonate in champagne bottles. Once its .990 i top up with sugar and more yeast and leave it to carbonate then disgorge, but if i left it at .01 then it's gonna be way over carbd.

You'll have to explain more. When you top up with sugar, how much? Why more yeast?

What is disgorge?

Is this the process you follow for any size batch? In other words, always the same process?

All I was really saying is that if something is at .990 it is sour/tart/dry. If you add sugar, it is eaten by the yeast and will still be sour/tart/dry.

 

[Yooper]

You'll have to explain more. When you top up with sugar, how much? Why more yeast?

What is disgorge?

Is this the process you follow for any size batch? In other words, always the same process?

All I was really saying is that if something is at .990 it is sour/tart/dry. If you add sugar, it is eaten by the yeast and will still be sour/tart/dry.

The priming and disgorging is typical for champagne.

I drink many wines (including champagne) at .990 and it's not sour/tart unless it is high in malic acid. A dry cider may taste tart to folks who like sweetened drinks, but for those who like and enjoy it, it's not "sour" at all.

The fact that the cider in the demijohns is fine, but the cider in the buckets is not (and they are the same, and finish the same) points to an oxygen loving bacteria taking hold in the large headspace of the buckets.

 

[WillJMA]

The fact that the cider in the demijohns is fine, but the cider in the buckets is not (and they are the same, and finish the same) points to an oxygen loving bacteria taking hold in the large headspace of the buckets.

Thanks, that makes a lot of sense. I think it's a mixture between sanitation problems and the headspace. I'm going to do a test with a new sanitiser and fill the bucket as much as i can, but when i do that, i'm not leaving enough room for any foam, which usually flows out through the airlock and then it's ruined. I can't win lol!

Letting the cider ferment down to .990 is normal then? I prefer dry cider so the tart flavour isn't a problem for me. I then usually use the champagne method for a really high carbonated 'sparkling cider'.

 

[Yooper]

Well, primary fermentation in a bucket is ok, but after that it really needs to go in something else- a carboy, demijohn, conical fermentation that seals, etc. I feel strongly that in something that doesn't have wide headpace and that closes well and is topped up that the infection risk is minimized.

Many of my ciders go to .990 if I use wine yeast. Sometimes I use ale yeast (S04) to keep it from going that dry, and I've had that stop at 1.004.

It's still much drier than many people like, as many people like sweet drinks like Woodchuck or soda pop. I do not have a sweet tooth at all, so I am more into what you're talking about- dry sparkling cider, or dry still cider.

 

[WillJMA]

This is the fermentation bucket i use, it has a tight seal with a hole at the top for a bung and airlock, but sometimes i take out the bung and take a look inside, probably my main mistake!

This is the fermentation bucket i use:

 

[ericbw]

Do you ever open your smaller glass fermenters?

 

[WillJMA]

Do you ever open your smaller glass fermenters?

No i don't because i can see the bubbles through the glass. I know it sounds obvious, basically don't open, but i've once left the large fermentation bucket without opening and the same thing still happened.

Could it be so easy for it to become infected just by taking out the bung and letting some oxygen in?

 

[Yooper]

No i don't because i can see the bubbles through the glass. I know it sounds obvious, basically don't open, but i've once left the large fermentation bucket without opening and the same thing still happened.

Could it be so easy for it to become infected just by taking out the bung and letting some oxygen in?

No, infection isn't that easy. I assume that the plastic is "holding" some bacteria, or there is something not airtight about the seal, allowing oxygen and perhaps other things to take hold.

Do you rack out of the fermenter to another fermenter for secondary?

 

[WillJMA]

The seal is definitely airtight, so i can only assume it's bacteria hiding in the plastic, and not being properly sanitised.

With the small 1 gallon glass demijohns i usually let the primary settle, then rack into a secondary with no problems. I've never actually got a good ferment from the 5 gallon bucket, but i generally would do the same thing, settle and then rack into another bucket.

 

[Yooper]

The seal is definitely airtight, so i can only assume it's bacteria hiding in the plastic, and not being properly sanitised.

With the small 1 gallon glass demijohns i usually let the primary settle, then rack into a secondary with no problems. I've never actually got a good ferment from the 5 gallon bucket, but i generally would do the same thing, settle and then rack into another bucket.

I'd definitely consider glass demijohns or carboys for the cider. You can primary in plastic buckets, but for secondary it seems to be an issue.

 

[ericbw]

I'd definitely consider glass demijohns or carboys for the cider. You can primary in plastic buckets, but for secondary it seems to be an issue.

And if it's always a problem in THOSE plastic ones, then it sounds like they are infected. But they look too nice/expensive to throw out.