Rodenbach Grand Cru Clone

[eastoak]

When you add oak into these beers, do you let the oak sit in water or beer or whatever for a week or two before putting it into the secondary for... the duration of the secondary aging process? How long do you leave the oak in there? I'm thinking of using american or french oak cubes.
Thanks!
If I used WLP530 and WLP001 in primary then racked to secondary onto rosalare... how different would the two versions be?

i put some red wine in a mason jar along with oak cubes then put it in a pressure cooker until it got to max pressure for a minute. i vented the cooker, got it open, screwed the lid shut and let it sit on the counter for a couple of weeks. this killed any weird bugs that may have been in the wood and pushed the wine deep into the wood. i dropped the chunks into the better bottle (after the ropey phase had cleared up), they have been in there for 3+ months and the sour tastes fantastic so far.

 

[Matteo57]

i put some red wine in a mason jar along with oak cubes then put it in a pressure cooker until it got to max pressure for a minute. i vented the cooker, got it open, screwed the lid shut and let it sit on the counter for a couple of weeks. this killed any weird bugs that may have been in the wood and pushed the wine deep into the wood. i dropped the chunks into the better bottle (after the ropey phase had cleared up), they have been in there for 3+ months and the sour tastes fantastic so far.

Sounds like a good idea to me!

 

[Brewing_on_the_Internet]

When i punch this into Beersmith my og comes to 1.073 at 70% efficiency without the maltodextrin added. Your Og is only 1.060. Is anyone else getting a difference?



Nevermind. I had it set for 5 gallons instead of 6

 

[FredTheNuke]

Just started a 60 gallon Lambic Solera aimed at an RGC clone. From what I've read the Roeselare is the key to the tart cherry flavor. Below are the recipe details I used (probably a bit lighter than a true Flanders Red but I can adjust that with some Special B on Year 2). The entire batch will remain in a 60 gallon conical fermenter for the duration. Each year I will dump the yeast trap / trub catcher (4700 ml in volume), siphon off 15 gallons and add 15 fresh gallons. By year 3 it should be an amazing blend!

The 15 "Year 1" gallons will be put on 2lbs/gallon of fruit for 6 additional months and then kegged/force carbonated. I will add oak cubes to half of it (figuring it will take four 5 gallon carboys with the fruit taken into account). I'm going to prepare the cubes like eastoak mentioned to weaken the new oak flavor, control the bugz and add the wine tint.

Fred's Sour Lambic

Straight (Unblended) Lambic (17 D)

Type: All Grain
Batch Size: 16.00 gal
Boil Size: 20.68 gal
Boil Time: 90 min

Equipment: Stainless Kegs (15 Gal/37.8 L) - All Grain
Efficiency: 62.00 %
Est Mash Efficiency: 65.9 %


Ingredients

Amt Name Type # %/IBU

25 lbs Pilsner (2 Row) Ger (2.0 SRM) Grain 1 58.1 %
10 lbs Wheat Malt, Ger (2.0 SRM) Grain 2 23.3 %
6 lbs Munich Malt (6.0 SRM) Grain 3 14.0 %
2 lbs Caramel/Crystal Malt - 20L (20.0 SRM) Grain 4 4.7 %
2.50 oz Saaz [3.80 %] - Boil 60.0 min Hop 5 10.5 IBUs


Gravity, Alcohol Content and Color

Est Original Gravity: 1.062 SG
Est Final Gravity: 1.019 SG
Estimated Alcohol by Vol: 5.7 %
Bitterness: 10.5 IBUs
Est Color: 6.5 SRM

Mash Profile

Mash Name: Single Infusion, Full Body, No Mash Out
Sparge Water: 12.40 gal
Sparge Temperature: 190.0 F
Adjust Temp for Equipment: FALSE


Total Grain Weight: 43 lbs
Grain Temperature: 72.0 F
Tun Temperature: 72.0 F
Mash PH: 5.20

Mash Steps

Name Description Step Temperature Step Time

Mash In Add 61.75 qt of water at 166.7 F 156.0 F 60 min

Sparge: Fly sparge with 12.40 gal water at 190.0 F
Mash Notes: Simple single infusion mash for use with most modern well modified grains (about 95% of the time).

 

[pukexxr]

I just brewed this today but just used a packet of us-05 and all the white labs bugs they had at the brew store: B. clausenii, B. lambicus, B. bruxellensis and B. bruxellensis trois. My concern is that the second runnings (with s-33) are bubbling up a storm, but the carboy with all the bugs and us-05 is completely still. Both yeasts were pitched @ 80 degrees farenheit. Am I just being paranoid?

 

[eastoak]

I just brewed this today but just used a packet of us-05 and all the white labs bugs they had at the brew store: B. clausenii, B. lambicus, B. bruxellensis and B. bruxellensis trois. My concern is that the second runnings (with s-33) are bubbling up a storm, but the carboy with all the bugs and us-05 is completely still. Both yeasts were pitched @ 80 degrees farenheit. Am I just being paranoid?

yes.

 

[PBeach80]

I've been researching sours for a while now and came across a process for souring your wort before the boil by chilling your mash to under 90, pitching your bugs, and keeping in a carboy as warm as possible. The author claimed it soured extremely fast and the boil kills off the bugs so you don't have to worry about contaminating your equipment. I will try to dig back up the article so I can link it here but I was wondering if anyone has tried this and what your results where.

I'm not looking to rush a Flanders Red or Brown. But I would say its could be a great way to dial in on the tartness of the batch.

Thoughts, suggestions, and feedback welcome.

 

[stpug]

I've been researching sours for a while now and came across a process for souring your wort before the boil by chilling your mash to under 90, pitching your bugs, and keeping in a carboy as warm as possible. The author claimed it soured extremely fast and the boil kills off the bugs so you don't have to worry about contaminating your equipment. I will try to dig back up the article so I can link it here but I was wondering if anyone has tried this and what your results where.

I'm not looking to rush a Flanders Red or Brown. But I would say its could be a great way to dial in on the tartness of the batch.

Thoughts, suggestions, and feedback welcome.

That is how a sour mash is done. Perhaps this is what you're referring to?

EDIT: I have done a 48 hour sour mash using 20% of the grainbill for a saison and the result (so far) has been very good. I actually kept my sour mash between 112-120F for the 2 days with minimal oxygen exposure (co2 purging) to ensure quick lactic (smooth) souring with minimal butyric (vomit) acid development. It was then added to the brewday mash prior to lautering, after which the boil proceeded as normal. At this point, it's still in a carboy aging but I've sampled a couple times and it's super tasty. Last sample was prior to some wine barrel oak and brett was added so I suspect it's changed a fair amount by now.

 

[PBeach80]

Now that you mentioned Sour mashing I do believe that is exactly what it was about. The article went on to say it eliminates the need to rack sours for extended periods of time and still get a great result.

I was surprised not to have seen any mention of it throughout this thread. Is there a downside to sour mashing, I would imagine if you can cut your process down from 1-3 years to 1-2 months it would have come up more.

 

[stpug]

Now that you mentioned Sour mashing I do believe that is exactly what it was about. The article went on to say it eliminates the need to rack sours for extended periods of time and still get a great result.

I was surprised not to have seen any mention of it throughout this thread. Is there a downside to sour mashing, I would imagine if you can cut your process down from 1-3 years to 1-2 months it would have come up more.

There are many aspects of sour beers that cannot be replicated by sour mashing alone; specifically, pedio and brett characteristics (and probably some others too). Once you boil a sour mash, the "wild" microbes are killed leaving the character of the beer as-is unless you later reintroduce other living microbes. Additionally, it's hard to specify how a boiled sour mash beer might differ from a post-boil lacto soured beer, but there MUST be some discernible difference.

I do believe that lacto sour mashing may be an easier and less-prone-to-error method of souring a beer using lactic acid then the traditional post-boil method while still allowing you to hop your beer enough to provide safety from other unwanted lactobacilli microbes (and eliminating the potential for contaminated equipment). Pedio and Brett microbes can always be reintroduced post-boil/chill/ferment to continue the true wild aging processes of a traditional sour beer if one wishes to do so.

I think what I'm getting at is that sour mashing is a tool to keep your arsenal for those times when it's useful, but the traditional post-boil sour method has it's place as well.

As for recreating a Rodenbach, I haven't the faintest idea. Without having the Rodenbach brewery to mash, boil, ferment, sour and blend (I believe Rodenbach is blended) at then we are all just approximating the beer style.

 

[PBeach80]

Thank you for your insight. After you mentioned Sour mash I was able to locate a few good threads and articles. Looks like the sour mashing is used more towards your Lambic and Berliner Wise styles and not really applicable to a true red or brown flanders due to the other bacteria's used to create their profile.

 

[skeezerpleezer]

Thank you for your insight. After you mentioned Sour mash I was able to locate a few good threads and articles. Looks like the sour mashing is used more towards your Lambic and Berliner Wise styles and not really applicable to a true red or brown flanders due to the other bacteria's used to create their profile.

I would move Lambics to the other group. I use sour mashing (sour worting acutally) for berliners and gose. I have been thinking about playing around with some other things, such as "sour ipas", and also sour mashing, then fermenting with brett. There are quite a few US breweries that do it.

 

[flibe]

Made this brew over a year ago. Used two packets of Wyeast 3763. Fermented like a beast. A lot more blow off than I've ever seen. Did not control temp. Probably reached up to 75F. After fermentation I let it sit for three months. Upon sampling, I thought the sourness could be up'ed a bit. I added the recommended amount of maltodextrin and sampled around a month later. It was really sour! I thought I ruined the batch. I decided to let it ride out for a year and see what happened.

Over time it developed a small film, nothing to write home about. I stopped sampling it and let it hang out. Bottled it after a year and two weeks. Great red color:

http://imgur.com/JxMzjdy

Tastes awesome. I am currently carbonating it with Danstar CBC-1 and can't wait to enjoy it carbed up.

Would I recommend this beer? Sure, if you have an extra carboy. Would I go out of my way to make it again? Maybe. Tastes great and I think its worth the wait, but I like regular beers just as much.

Thanks for the good recipe.

 

[Jay-Brew]

Doing this on the weekend. Just want to be sure about my starter. Plan is to use 1056 and do a starter first plus also pitch Roselare blend at the same time (I will not do a starter with the Roselare blend).

I understand the importance of starters but have been reading stuff about the ratio of the Roselare blend (i.e., bugs to sacch) so you definitely don't want to do a starter for it. So I guess what I am wondering does pitching the 1056 (starter or not) throw off the ratio of the Roselare blend. Hope that makes sense.

Probably over thinking this.

Anyway, should I be good to go with 1056 starter plus Roselare blend (no starter) all at the same time?

 

[Ruckusz28]

Looking forward to following progress.

 

[secondbase]

Doing this on the weekend. Just want to be sure about my starter. Plan is to use 1056 and do a starter first plus also pitch Roselare blend at the same time (I will not do a starter with the Roselare blend).

I understand the importance of starters but have been reading stuff about the ratio of the Roselare blend (i.e., bugs to sacch) so you definitely don't want to do a starter for it. So I guess what I am wondering does pitching the 1056 (starter or not) throw off the ratio of the Roselare blend. Hope that makes sense.

Probably over thinking this.

Anyway, should I be good to go with 1056 starter plus Roselare blend (no starter) all at the same time?

If you're set on adding 1056, pitch everything at the same time, but there really is no need to pitch 1056. Roeselare already contains a sacch strain and is intended for primary fermentation.

 

[stpug]

If you're set on adding 1056, pitch everything at the same time, but there really is no need to pitch 1056. Roeselare already contains a sacch strain and is intended for primary fermentation.

^^I like this advice.

Based on posts of people experiences with Roeselare blend alone (i.e. not sour enough), I would suspect that pitching it with 1056 may lead to an underwhelming flanders red sour ale and/or a reallllllllly long wait. Granted, I have never used the roeselare blend so I don't have first-hand experience, but I would probably pitch only the roselare blend along with the dregs from a bottle of sour beer you like and is known to have viable dregs (jolly pumpkin always works); then I would use the 1056 to brew a non-sour beer

 

[Jay-Brew]

Based on the information in the thread when I was planning this batch I concluded that to get the most sour out of things was to pitch both 1056 and Roselare and at the same time. As I would prefer more sour this is what I ended up doing. Brewed it two weeks ago and will transfer it next weekend and then WAIT. We'll see how it ends up.

 

[sfgoat]

Ready to bottle mine today after 18 months. Anybody had any worries of bottle bombs from this in regular beer bottles? I was going to use champagne bottles but don't want to spend the money for them.

 

[klowneyy]

How long has it been at a stable gravity? I normally wait 6 weeks after gravity stables so I know it's done fermenting.

 

[Jay-Brew]

Transferred this last night to another carboy for aging after about 3 weeks in primary. Gravity was 1.014. On brew day I pitched 1056 and Roselare blend. It has been ages since I've done a secondary on anything and feel like I did a pretty lousy job of it despite using an auto siphon - think I had the siphon sitting on the trub for a bit, had some kind of air pockets in the tubing for a while (also lots of little bubbles where the tubing and cane connect but I think this is CO2 coming out of solution), didn't have my primary high enough so had to move it towards the end and restart the siphon resulting in the trub mixing with the beer a fair bit but I wanted to get as much in to avoid too much headspace, then worry about oxidation from the poor transfer.... Anyway, did not feel like a good transfer, but I certainly learned some things so next time will be better.

I somehow ended up with about an inch of trub in the bottom too - think there was still a good bit of yeast... in suspension though.

Anyway, because this is supposed to age for a year I have some questions (if it wasn't I wouldn't be worried about these things) as this is the first sour I have done.

1. Is the inch of trub on the bottom a concern?
2. Am I being over sensitive about oxidation (not a smooth transfer and headspace - have about 5.5 gallons in a 6.5 gallon carboy so not massive headspace). Do have positive pressure in the airlock though.

Sorry for the rambling but any thoughts appreciated.

Thanks!

 

[stpug]

Carboys can be deceiving in terms of how much sediment it looks like they have. With the rounded bottom edges and domed middles, it can look like a lot of sediment but not really be too much. Regardless, I think you will be fine with some sediment as it can serve as a food source for the microbes and brett can take care of any lysing yeast.

Oxidation is something to be concerned with over the course of the year. I doubt anything you did now will have too much effect on the final product as the bacteria and yeast will likely use up any oxygen you introduced. The headspace is potential for concern but as long as you reduce the potential for ingress of oxygen into the headspace then it should be okay. You'll want to get samples occasionally as the year goes on and if you start getting any acetic qualities early on from the beer you should be prepared to do something to eliminate oxygen. I always flush the headspace with co2 after pulling my samples to reduce oxygen introduction.

 

[Jay-Brew]

Carboys can be deceiving in terms of how much sediment it looks like they have. With the rounded bottom edges and domed middles, it can look like a lot of sediment but not really be too much. Regardless, I think you will be fine with some sediment as it can serve as a food source for the microbes and brett can take care of any lysing yeast.

Oxidation is something to be concerned with over the course of the year. I doubt anything you did now will have too much effect on the final product as the bacteria and yeast will likely use up any oxygen you introduced. The headspace is potential for concern but as long as you reduce the potential for ingress of oxygen into the headspace then it should be okay. You'll want to get samples occasionally as the year goes on and if you start getting any acetic qualities early on from the beer you should be prepared to do something to eliminate oxygen. I always flush the headspace with co2 after pulling my samples to reduce oxygen introduction.

Thanks for the feedback!

Both carboys are 6.5 gallons and the primary was filled right to the neck but I lost a noticeable amount from the blow off, which contributed to the difference in volumes. Add to the that what I left in the primary and there you go. I would say it's about 1.5 inches from the top of the carboy where it starts to curve and maybe 3 inches from the neck. I keg so I will definitely purge with CO2 after taking samples. As for now, I am going to cover it up and let it sit for at least 3 months before I check it.

 

[BrewCityBaller]

I brewed a batch of this back in September and just bottled it today. It is phenomenal! One of the best beers I have ever made. I made it for my buddy's wedding, so hopefully he will enjoy it as much as I do.

Thanks for the recipe!

 

[Jay-Brew]

I brewed a batch of this back in September and just bottled it today. It is phenomenal! One of the best beers I have ever made. I made it for my buddy's wedding, so hopefully he will enjoy it as much as I do.

Thanks for the recipe!

Glad to hear it worked out! I did my batch this past September too. It's still sitting in secondary in the basement. I think that I'll leave it until at least it gets to the one year mark. It was in the basement over the winter and I think it was too cool down there and maybe slowed activity way down. Was below the range of the Roselare Blend. It's speculation on my part though. I took a sample I believe around the 6 month mark. No tartness to speak of. Colour was pretty awesome though. Anyway, I'm not in a rush for it.

Did you use any oak? If so, how much and for how long?

 

[BrewCityBaller]

Glad to hear it worked out! I did my batch this past September too. It's still sitting in secondary in the basement. I think that I'll leave it until at least it gets to the one year mark. It was in the basement over the winter and I think it was too cool down there and maybe slowed activity way down. Was below the range of the Roselare Blend. It's speculation on my part though. I took a sample I believe around the 6 month mark. No tartness to speak of. Colour was pretty awesome though. Anyway, I'm not in a rush for it.

Did you use any oak? If so, how much and for how long?

I would have let it sit longer, but my buddy's wedding is in three weeks and I want the bottles to carb in time. I actually had the same problem with low temps in the winter, it was definitely too chilly for the bugs. I ended up putting it in a second floor closet and that kept it at 70*F the last six months. Definitely ended up with some tartness, but not as much as I was expecting.

I did use oak, but I would have to look back at my notes for how much. I believe it was 1 oz. I soaked it in red wine for a few weeks and then added it when I transferred it to secondary. All told it was probably on the wood for 8 months.

 

[Jay-Brew]

I would have let it sit longer, but my buddy's wedding is in three weeks and I want the bottles to carb in time. I actually had the same problem with low temps in the winter, it was definitely too chilly for the bugs. I ended up putting it in a second floor closet and that kept it at 70*F the last six months. Definitely ended up with some tartness, but not as much as I was expecting.

I did use oak, but I would have to look back at my notes for how much. I believe it was 1 oz. I soaked it in red wine for a few weeks and then added it when I transferred it to secondary. All told it was probably on the wood for 8 months.

Thanks! At the time I knew better about leaving it in the basement but thought oh well it's going to be sitting around forever so whatever. Think in the end I maybe just delayed getting to the end point of it being done. Maybe it will just have to sit longer. Either way I am looking forward to it and hoping for a good outcome!

 

[cactusgarrett]

Just coming back to this now, as I'm going to do yet another batch. It's great to see everyone giving this a shot - in some form or another. In seeing so many "i just brewed this" or "mine is 3 months old" posts, I'm VERY curious as to all your impressions of your batches now. Specifically, I'm interested in your Roeselare-alone vs Roeselare + Sacc pitching approaches. Sour on, everyone!

 

[Jay-Brew]

Just coming back to this now, as I'm going to do yet another batch. It's great to see everyone giving this a shot - in some form or another. In seeing so many "i just brewed this" or "mine is 3 months old" posts, I'm VERY curious as to all your impressions of your batches now. Specifically, I'm interested in your Roeselare-alone vs Roeselare + Sacc pitching approaches. Sour on, everyone!

Mine has been sitting in secondary since September 27, 2015. I pitched both at the beginning of fermentation because it is supposed to provide a higher level of sour. I feel the beer is finally starting to develop. The aroma is definitely what I would expect. I think there a subtle tartness to it. I decided to let it sit for at least a few more months. I left it in the basement over the winter which I think really slowed it down. It's now upstairs. Most recent sample was just a couple of weeks ago, and I am optimistic that this might turn out to be a pretty decent beer. If so will definitely do it again!

 

[deadwolfbones]

I'm going to try doing a small batch kettle sour version of this using lacto (Goodbelly StraightShot) and WY3724 or WY3463, plus maybe some tart cherry concentrate. I know it'll be different without the Brett, but I'm curious what the end result would be like. Cheers!