Rodenbach Grand Cru Clone

[dawn_kiebawls]

Oh man, how time flies! I brewed this recipe in September of 2020 and need to get it in my belly (and out of my basement before my wife kills me lol)! I'll have two weeks of free time after this coming week so I have to get it done in that window so I'm planning to follow the advice of @cactusgarrett :

I bottle all my sours in large format bottles (champagne, bombers, etc.). For all my aged beers (whatever sits longer than 6 months) I re-yeast at bottling time with CBC-1 and GoFerm. Works like a charm. If i didn't use GoFerm, I would get extra insurance of good priming by doing an acid shock starter for the bottling yeast.

I'll be doing this either in standard 12oz bottles of bombers. Go-ferm directions say to use 1.25g Go-Ferm per every 1g of yeast used, but how much yeast do I need per gallon of beer? Sorry if this has already been discussed but I have been out of the brewing scene for a LONG time. Also, any recommendations on how many volumes I should carb this to? I'll have to get back on brewersfriend.com and fiddle around with their bottling calculators again. Thanks for all the help!

 

[cactusgarrett]

how much yeast do I need per gallon of beer?

Usually with CBC-1 I'm doing 2-3 grams. It's easy to overdo the carb on these sours, so I would err on the low end - something like 2.3, no higher than 2.5. But that's me, personally.

 

[Mark Solomon]

I just brewed this recipe and decided to only pitch the 3763 by itself. I am surprised how vigorous the fermentation is. Was this a mistake? I figure it would be more sour if I let it do it’s thing.

I am wondering why everyone pitches a separate yeast strain first?

-Mark

 

[JAReeves]

I tend to co-pitch a sacc, often a belgian or saison, but sometimes a something-leftover along with my house sour cultures. I just don't want to pitch twice, but also, I get a more moderate sour by having the sacc eat some of the sugars before the wild yeasties do their thing.

 

[Beermeister32]

I think I'd pitch US-05 first. They I'd pitch the 3763 Roeselare........in the trash. I can't stand Roeselare. Dumper every time.

 

[Mark Solomon]

I think I'd pitch US-05 first. They I'd pitch the 3763 Roeselare........in the trash. I can't stand Roeselare. Dumper every time.

I understand your point of view. Before using Roeselare you definitely was to drink a Rodenbach first. If you don’t like that you certainly won’t like this strain.

 

[cactusgarrett]

I get a more moderate sour by having the sacc eat some of the sugars before the wild yeasties do their thing.

This right here. I used to baby my mixed ferms that contain lacto (minimal IBU), but after maintaining house blends for years, it's been getting pretty hop tolerant and super sour (which I'm not into nowadays). Any steps that can be done to knock down that sourness is worth noting, especially the copitch/timing approach.

I can't stand Roeselare. Dumper every time.

Feel free to pass on by the next recipe thread that leans heavily on it, then. Man...

 

[Beer666]

Seems i have the same issue as you Cactus. My house culture is souring 20 IBU's in a few weeks and i have also gone off super sour beers. Really need to get into blending as i have quite a few flanders on the go. Youngest is 18 months and not tasted anything for a year or more.

 

[mashpaddled]

I tend to co-pitch a sacc, often a belgian or saison, but sometimes a something-leftover along with my house sour cultures. I just don't want to pitch twice, but also, I get a more moderate sour by having the sacc eat some of the sugars before the wild yeasties do their thing.

The mid-2010s advice for brewing sour beer got everybody hooked on brewing ridiculously sour beer and maintaining house cultures that produced those beers. When you feed a mixed culture like you would maintain a yeast culture you get way more LAB in the mix because they reproduce substantially faster than yeast--especially brett. If you're going to maintain a house sour culture you need to pitch sacc with it or on a timetable where sacc gets in there first so you can balance the mix of organisms in the beer--exactly what you're doing here. Letting sacc outcompete lacto for the simple sugars means pedio has to pick up the souring duties which gives you less acid production. Bumping up the IBUs will also help knock down the LAB. I tend to bitter all my sour beers to 30 IBUs.

My technique is to maintain a house character in my sour beer is to repitch out of the cake, usually along with fresh sacc. The fresh sacc is more for accelerating fermentation and making sure there are plenty of fermentation byproducts for brett to repackage into other flavors. I find not pitching fresh sacc or doing a primary clean fermentation results in less complexity and more straightforward barnyard brett character. Between this process and a firm hand bittering I get a lot of flavor but maintain ph levels in the 3.6-3.8 range. My house sour character is driven by WY3728 plus some dregs. WY3278 responds really well to this process and produces good brett flavor.

 

[JAReeves]

The mid-2010s advice for brewing sour beer got everybody hooked on brewing ridiculously sour beer and maintaining house cultures that produced those beers. When you feed a mixed culture like you would maintain a yeast culture you get way more LAB in the mix because they reproduce substantially faster than yeast--especially brett. If you're going to maintain a house sour culture you need to pitch sacc with it or on a timetable where sacc gets in there first so you can balance the mix of organisms in the beer--exactly what you're doing here. Letting sacc outcompete lacto for the simple sugars means pedio has to pick up the souring duties which gives you less acid production. Bumping up the IBUs will also help knock down the LAB. I tend to bitter all my sour beers to 30 IBUs.

My technique is to maintain a house character in my sour beer is to repitch out of the cake, usually along with fresh sacc. The fresh sacc is more for accelerating fermentation and making sure there are plenty of fermentation byproducts for brett to repackage into other flavors. I find not pitching fresh sacc or doing a primary clean fermentation results in less complexity and more straightforward barnyard brett character. Between this process and a firm hand bittering I get a lot of flavor but maintain ph levels in the 3.6-3.8 range. My house sour character is driven by WY3728 plus some dregs. WY3278 responds really well to this process and produces good brett flavor.

I have sat in a couple of Michael Tonsmeire's talks and limiting the sugars that the sour culture can consume was his advice (I had a batch that went way too sour). I have no idea what is in my house culture, as it comes off the grapes we grow, so learning how to get the best from it on a year-by-year basis is the best we can do. That's our terroir, and we're sticking to it .

 

[Shenanigans]

After years of procrastinating I finally brewed this a month ago.
I transferred it to the secondary last night after 4 weeks.
I had an OG of 1.058 and pitched US-05 and Roeselare at the same time.
Now it has a gravity of 1.005.
It's in no way sour at the moment, just dry as is to be expected at that SG.

I bought the pack of Roeselare 3 years ago and never got around to brewing with it, so I kept it alive two times by feeding it with some malt extract.
I am a bit worried about that now after reading this on the Wyeast website:

"Propagation of this culture is not recommended and will result in a change of the proportions of the individual components."

Hopefully sometime decent comes out after a year or so even if it's not exactly like Rodenbach.
Something sour and funky and enjoyable to drink now and again would be fine.

It must be doing something as I don't think US-05 would have reached 91% attenuation on it's own with a 60 min 154F mash and no table sugar in the malt bill. I also read somewhere that the reusing the yeast results in it being more sour than a fresh pack so maybe it will be OK; if making a starter counts as reusing

 

[Mark Solomon]

I brewed this recipe back in early July with the intention of souring it for at least 18 months. I just tasted it after 8 months and it is near perfect, maybe an 8/10 on the sour scale. Would I be making a mistake if I bottle it now? Seems way too early...

I single pitched 3763 and added dregs from a Side Project beer. Also added 4oz of Maltodextrine.

Thanks.

-Mark

 

[Shenanigans]

After years of procrastinating I finally brewed this a month ago.
I transferred it to the secondary last night after 4 weeks.
I had an OG of 1.058 and pitched US-05 and Roeselare at the same time.
Now it has a gravity of 1.005.
It's in no way sour at the moment, just dry as is to be expected at that SG.

I bought the pack of Roeselare 3 years ago and never got around to brewing with it, so I kept it alive two times by feeding it with some malt extract.
I am a bit worried about that now after reading this on the Wyeast website:

"Propagation of this culture is not recommended and will result in a change of the proportions of the individual components."

Hopefully sometime decent comes out after a year or so even if it's not exactly like Rodenbach.
Something sour and funky and enjoyable to drink now and again would be fine.

It must be doing something as I don't think US-05 would have reached 91% attenuation on it's own with a 60 min 154F mash and no table sugar in the malt bill. I also read somewhere that the reusing the yeast results in it being more sour than a fresh pack so maybe it will be OK; if making a starter counts as reusing

Just took a sample of mine after 6 months and it is sour but not very, so probably still another 6 months to go but I will check again in december to see if i can get it bottled before Christmas.

 

[suprchunk]

I think I'd pitch US-05 first. They I'd pitch the 3763 Roeselare........in the trash. I can't stand Roeselare. Dumper every time.

You might be in the wrong thread, my man. This thread is specifically about how to make this beer, not how to dump it in your weeds at work.

And I think you point has been well established that you do not like this beer, this beer that is being discussed with admiration. Which is weird, as it is one of the best beers made. In the world.

Read the room?

I have pitched 3763 by itself and prefer it that way. Supposedly it has sacch in there, and is mixed in the proper ratios (though how those propagate themselves while keeping the same ratio is not mentioned). I've pitched with US05 and Roeselare, but still prefer the 3763 by itself. But I like more twang in my sours.

 

[Beermeister32]

You might be in the wrong thread, my man. This thread is specifically about how to make this beer, not how to dump it in your weeds at work.

And I think you point has been well established that you do not like this beer, this beer that is being discussed with admiration. Which is weird, as it is one of the best beers made. In the world.

Read the room?

I have pitched 3763 by itself and prefer it that way. Supposedly it has sacch in there, and is mixed in the proper ratios (though how those propagate themselves while keeping the same ratio is not mentioned). I've pitched with US05 and Roeselare, but still prefer the 3763 by itself. But I like more twang in my sours.

This is from 2021, but worth rementioning ..... Here is the exact spot I dumped it, along the side of our industrial building. 5.5 gallons of 2 year old otherwise good ale, but soured by Roeselare..... Yuck..!

 

[Shenanigans]

I might try 100% 3763 myself next time. I bought a pack 3or 4 years ago but have been keeping it alive by feeding it with wort every 3 to 6 months. Last time was from the starter I used to finally brew this clone. God only knows how the ratios of the original blend have changed. I guess I could just go 100% 3763 and check it after week. If its not moving then add some other neutral ale yeast.

 

[suprchunk]

Looks like the grass has better taste!

 

[Beermeister32]

Grass can have it.

 

[suprchunk]

I might try 100% 3763 myself next time. I bought a pack 3or 4 years ago but have been keeping it alive by feeding it with wort every 3 to 6 months. Last time was from the starter I used to finally brew this clone. God only knows how the ratios of the original blend have changed. I guess I could just go 100% 3763 and check it after week. If its not moving then add some other neutral ale yeast.

I always try a yeast by itself before mixing up different yeasts, and I've rarely found a need to mix. But I do have a few in the pipeline that will be more mixed, as those bugs won't actually do much fermenting. But Roeselare is supposedly setup for success from the getgo, and I haven't had any drain pours using it. Yet. Roeselare is one that I truly do enjoy using by itself as Rodenbach might be one of my favorite mass breweries that makes sours. Mass being a little generous, but I think when you are around the globe you are more massive than a local brewpub.

I also know what this yeast is supposed to do, and how it is supposed to taste, so I am aware of what I will get in the end, or an approximation.

Strange other people are so unfamiliar with this blend that they would brew an entire batch, pitch it, wait, and then be surprised at what they get??? Very strange. Stranger still is the anger you'd have at the YEAST. It did what it was supposed to do. To say "every time" means you'll be as clueless when you plan to buy it again. A lesson that needs learning a few times I suppose?

I mean I do forget that I don't like stuff from time to time, but not an ingredient. I've bought Fancy Lawnmower (swear it used to be called something else!) more than a few times, and my wife has told me I do not like it (or anything by them). I hush her and buy it again. Only for her to be right. Again. I've only done that 3 times though. Now I know.

 

[Bottoms_Up]

Are there any updates on whether the recipe works better with both WY1056 and WY3763, or with 1056 alone?

Also is MD and secondary needed if going with 3763 alone?

Thanks for the great recipe! I'm going to try it in January.

 

[huckdavidson]

Are there any updates on whether the recipe works better with both WY1056 and WY3763, or with 1056 alone?

Also is MD and secondary needed if going with 1056 alone?

Thanks for the great recipe! I'm going to try it in January.

1056 alone won't produce a sour beer. If you want to reproduce this beer you'll need to either pitch 1056, wait until FG is reached, then pitch 3763 and wait till it achieves the sourness you want -or- you can try pitching 3763 alone as it has an ale yeast in the mix. If doing the later it may take > 1yr to develop.

 

[Bottoms_Up]

1056 alone won't produce a sour beer. If you want to reproduce this beer you'll need to either pitch 1056, wait until FG is reached, then pitch 3763 and wait till it achieves the sourness you want -or- you can try pitching 3763 alone as it has an ale yeast in the mix. If doing the later it may take > 1yr to develop.

Sorry, I meant 3763 alone (I'll edit that in my post). Thanks. I might try just pitching 3763 alone. If doing so, will I need to use any maltodextrine? And would there be any need for a secondary? Thanks!

 

[huckdavidson]

Sorry, I meant 3763 alone (I'll edit that in my post). Thanks. I might try just pitching 3763 alone. If doing so, will I need to use any maltodextrine? And would there be any need for a secondary? Thanks!

If your beer hasn't developed enough sour character or is thin in nature after aging at length you might try adding some maltodextrin to increase the sourness and add some body. Once added it will take an additional period of time to develop due to the slow nature of brett and pedio which will be active at that time.

A secondary is useful when making sour beers as you will want to transfer off the yeast cake and provide a container with relatively small head space to limit oxygen exposure. Even though brett consumes the autolysised yeast byproducts it's best to limit the amount of dead sacc that needs to be cleaned up. There are brewers who have reported successfully souring and aging the beer on the original yeast cake but that may or may not have desirable effects.

Sours in general take time and monthly taste/gravity and pH measurement cycles to track the beers progress. Documenting what you are measuring and tasting will help you track and communicate how the beer is progressing and when it's time to bottle.

 

[Bottoms_Up]

Thanks, @huckdavidson. When transferring the the secondary, should you transfer some of the yeast cake as well, or is there enough in suspension?

 

[huckdavidson]

Thanks, @huckdavidson. When transferring the the secondary, should you transfer some of the yeast cake as well, or is there enough in suspension?

There should be enough in suspension but it doesn't hurt to siphon a small blob from the cake as well.

 

[Bottoms_Up]

There should be enough in suspension but it doesn't hurt to siphon a small blob from the cake as well.

Thanks once again!

 

[Bottoms_Up]

@cactusgarrett (or anyone else), I input all your ingredients into a calculator, assuming 70% efficiency and a volume of 6 gallons, and using your SRM numbers. I came up with a total SRM of 26.4 rather than the 16 SRM that you indicated. Did you actually mean 26 rather than 16? Why such a difference?

I'm concerned because that is a significant difference in the color, and I would like to achieve the ruby red if possible.

 

[Shenanigans]

@cactusgarrett (or anyone else), I input all your ingredients into a calculator, assuming 70% efficiency and a volume of 6 gallons, and using your SRM numbers. I came up with a total SRM of 26.4 rather than the 16 SRM that you indicated. Did you actually mean 26 rather than 16? Why such a difference?

I'm concerned because that is a significant difference in the color, and I would like to achieve the ruby red if possible.

Good that you bumped this tread I'm almost due to do my 1 year sample.
After 6 months it wasn't sour enough.

As pre your question; I scaled mine to match the same OG as the OP and the color in Beersmith was 30.5 ECB which is about 15.5 SRM and it is a redish color.
26.4 would indeed be more brownish.

What calculator are you using; maybe it is spitting out ECB numbers?

Edit: looking at my recipe again it looks like I left the Munich malt out, can't remember why

 

[Bottoms_Up]

Good that you bumped this tread I'm almost due to do my 1 year sample.
After 6 months it wasn't sour enough.

As pre your question; I scaled mine to match the same OG as the OP and the color in Beersmith was 30.5 ECB which is about 15.5 SRM and it is a redish color.
26.4 would indeed be more brownish.

What calculator are you using; maybe it is spitting out ECB numbers?

Edit: looking at my recipe again it looks like I left the Munich malt out, can't remember why

I used the SRM (Morey) calculations, the same ones used in Beersmith:

Beer Color: Understanding SRM, Lovibond and EBC

I use all my own calculations for almost everything (I enjoy math) - so I built my own beer recipe program. I double-checked the calculations and they do come to 26.4. Here are the detailed calculations (Note the only weight not exactly same - but very close - is Pilsner in order to make it all balance out - otherwise I would need to increase the volume a little):

Grain	W (lb.)	Lovibond	MCU	SRM
Caramunich III	0.50​	56​	4.67​	4.29​
Special B	0.50​	180​	15.00​	9.56​
Wheat Malt	0.50​	2​	0.17​	0.44​
Aromatic	0.50​	26​	2.17​	2.54​
Munich II	3.00​	10​	5.00​	4.50​
Vienna	5.00​	3.5​	2.92​	3.11​
Pilsner	4.35​	2.00​	1.45​	1.92​
				26.36​
Where:
MCU = (weight of grain in lb) * (color of grain in degrees Lovibond)/(Volume in gallons = 6.0)
SRM = 1.4922 * (MCU ** 0.6859) [Morey Equation]

 

[Bottoms_Up]

I used the SRM (Morey) calculations, the same ones used in Beersmith:

I plugged the identical information into Beersmith and I get an SRM of 15.9! I will contact Brad Smith and see if he can explain the difference. I might be missing something subtle.