Rochefort 10 clone stuck fermentation

[Nico93]

Hi to all

I brewed a rochefort 10 clone following the recipe on candi syrup website

I got a better efficency than usual and I got a little bit higher og :1100 instead of 1096

I used wyeast 1762 and I made a big starter

Now, after one 5 weeks I'm stuck ad 1025 (recipe call for 1013)
I tried to add a pack of us 05 and no change, after that I tried to put it on a cake of us05 and now change.

Now I've got a cake of 3787 (I just brewed a westvleteren 12 clone) and I don't know if try to put the rochefort 10 on the 3787 clone or to pitch a vial of wlp 099.

I have already the wlp 099 vial on my frigor but I'm little bit scared of too low fg.

What is your opinion about ?

Thanks

Nicolò

 

[porterpounder]

Apparent attenuation for that strain is 73-77%. 1.100 to 1.025 is 73% AA. That may be as low as it's going to go.

 

[Nico93]

Ok but I've got 3 lbs of candy syrup that is in big part fermentable so I can archive better attenuation than 73/77%

Edit: I called it stuck because the recipe call for 1013 and because with a lot of candy sugar I was looking for something between 1010 and 1015/16.

Now my problem is how to dry it is not important if 1762 has stuck or only finished his work

Can wlp 099 be a solution or can cause me other problems like attenuating too much?
Can be the wyeast 3787 be a solution or in a high alcohol ambient like this beer this yeast is going to settle on the bottom?

Thanks

 

[suprchunk]

I can archive better attenuation than 73/77

How are you thinking you'll achieve more than what they say you'll get? The syrup may well be 100% fermentable, but there is liquids that make up a portion of its weight that aren't fermentable.

The thing I'm wondering is; did you do all-grain? If so, what was your mash temperature? If you mashed high, say 154F (67-68), your wort is less fermentable. Also, what did you ferment at?

I brewed a rochefort 10 clone following the recipe on candi syrup website

And you didn't, as they used WLP 540.

 

[BlueHouseBrewhaus]

I had a similar situation with a Belgian a couple of years ago. I gave it some 3711 (French Saison) and it ate another 8 points off a brew that had been stuck for 2 weeks.

 

[Nico93]

How are you thinking you'll achieve more than what they say you'll get? The syrup may well be 100% fermentable, but there is liquids that make up a portion of its weight that aren't fermentable.

The thing I'm wondering is; did you do all-grain? If so, what was your mash temperature? If you mashed high, say 154F (67-68), your wort is less fermentable. Also, what did you ferment at?



And you didn't, as they used WLP 540.

I made very similar recipes recently using wyeast 3787 witch had similar theorical attenuation and I got more than 85% apparent attenuation

I made all grain and I mashed pretty low, when I'm back home I'm posting the recipe

I used wyeast 1762 that is the wlp 540 equivalent...

I also followed the temperature of the recipe (I'll post it later)


I though about wyeast 3711 but I can't put my hand on it in a short time!

Sorry for the grammar but I'm using the phone

 

[didinho]

I made very similar recipes recently using wyeast 3787 witch had similar theorical attenuation and I got more than 85% apparent attenuation

3787 Trappist is better for such high OG, but it also stops sometimes.
I just used belgian abbey up to dubbel, so I have no experience of it at higher OG.

di dove sei?

 

[Nico93]

I'll add some wlp 099 to finish the work, I don't want to bottle this high!

Sono di Varese, te?

 

[suprchunk]

I made very similar recipes recently using wyeast 3787 witch had similar theorical attenuation and I got more than 85% apparent attenuation

I made all grain and I mashed pretty low, when I'm back home I'm posting the recipe

I used wyeast 1762 that is the wlp 540 equivalent...

I also followed the temperature of the recipe (I'll post it later)


I though about wyeast 3711 but I can't put my hand on it in a short time!

Sorry for the grammar but I'm using the phone

Please do post the recipe.

My latest Westvleteren 12 clone finished out fairly good. But I used WLP530. It attenuated out just under 85%. Just trying to help you find out what could have went wrong, but I'm leaning towards that yeast.

Those yeasts may be "equivalent" but they aren't the same, in my experience.

 

[Nico93]

this is the recipe

---RECIPE SPECIFICATIONS-----------------------------------------------
SRM: 42,5 SRM SRM RANGE: 12,0-22,0 SRM
IBU: 39,4 IBUs Tinseth IBU RANGE: 20,0-35,0 IBUs
OG: 1,100 SG OG RANGE: 1,075-1,110 SG
FG: 1,011 SG FG RANGE: 1,010-1,024 SG
BU:GU: 0,393 Calories: 352,6 kcal/12oz Est ABV: 11,9 %
EE%: 80,00 % Batch: 5,28 gal Boil: 7,66 gal BT: 100 Mins

Total Grain Weight: 18,10 lb Total Hops: 2,82 oz oz.
---MASH/STEEP PROCESS------MASH PH:5,40 ------
>>>>>>>>>>-ADD WATER CHEMICALS BEFORE GRAINS!!<<<<<<<
Amt Name Type # %/IBU
11,90 lb Pilsner (2 Row) Bel (2,0 SRM) Grain 1 65,8 %
2,20 lb Caramunich Malt (56,0 SRM) Grain 2 12,2 %
0,99 lb Wheat, Torrified (1,7 SRM) Grain 3 5,5 %


Name Description Step Temperat Step Time
Mash In Add 28,53 qt of water at 156,8 F 147,9 F 90 min
mash out Add 0,00 qt of water and heat to 168,8 168,8 F 15 min



---BOIL PROCESS-----------------------------
Est Pre_Boil Gravity: 1,057 SG Est OG: 1,100 SG
Amt Name Type # %/IBU
1,41 oz Hallertauer Mittelfrueh [6,00 %] - Boil Hop 4 28,6 IBUs
1,41 oz Styrian Golding (Savinja Golding) [5,00 Hop 5 10,8 IBUs
4,00 g Yeast Nutrient (Boil 15,0 mins) Other 6

fermentation start at 63,5 and i ramped the temp to 73,5 in one week

the units are strange because i work with metric units and i change it to post it here

i toke a gravity reading and gravity was the same but i liked it a lot so i decided to bottle a half of the batch and i'm going to add a small starter of wlp 099 to the other half -

i never had fermentation problem with 3787 (530) but i also never used 1762 (540) and maybe my expectation was to high...

I'm starting to think that you are right, is not stuck (I called stuck because the CSI repice call for 1013) but is just finished... This is way 8 bottled half batch

i know that the yeast are not perfectly the same but i don't think this is the problem (but maybe it is...)

i forgot to mention an important things, that i think is the problem! i don't have pure 02 so i splashed a lot (a loooooot!) between the tho fermenter but there is a upper limit for oxygen dissolution using this method and i read on wlp the 540 need extra oxygen (and i think is the same think for 1762).

im going to buy a 02 cylindre very soon!

 

[Nico93]

one week since i pitched wlp 099, fg down to 1010

 

[Nico93]

Now I'm down at 1006, hoping is not going much further !

how low is too low for this type of beer?
now i like it a lot, is a little bit dry but it's ok!
now i'm let it finish and see (and taste) but if it will be too dry i can add some maltodextrin?
in Italy the homebrewshop dosen't sell maltodextrin so in the case i need to add them (maybe only to a half of the batch) i have to buy maltodextrin for bodybuildin like this:
http://www.bodybuildingwarehouse.co.uk/pure-maltodextrin
are this ok?

 

[jessup]

Rochefort FG is much higher @ 1.012 or so & bjcp for bdsa says 1.010-1.024. That WL high grav tore it up! You should've cold crashed or something earlier as now you're on the other side of the fence & going!

The 1762/540 needs lots of O2 or tends to stall out. Mine stalled @ 1.026 from 1.080 even with raising temperature & trying to coax her. Just went threw the same thing with this yeast this month lol. Added more yeast, heat & time to finish. You've got some serious rocket fuel on your hands it may take time to mellow!!

 

[Nico93]

Rochefort FG is much higher @ 1.012 or so & bjcp for bdsa says 1.010-1.024. That WL high grav tore it up! You should've cold crashed or something earlier as now you're on the other side of the fence & going!

The 1762/540 needs lots of O2 or tends to stall out. Mine stalled @ 1.026 from 1.080 even with raising temperature & trying to coax her. Just went threw the same thing with this yeast this month lol. Added more yeast, heat & time to finish. You've got some serious rocket fuel on your hands it may take time to mellow!!

my object was 1013 but the yeast stalled at 1024, it was good so i bottled half batch but with the other half i would like to reach a lower final gravity! for now 1006 is ok, sure need some times to age but i liked it a lot! (i think more than the half bottled at 1024) but i think is going down further so this is why i'm looking for maltodextrin!
i thinks as you said that the problem is oxygen releated! i'm buying a oxygen tank this week!
i haven't cold crashed because i'm scared about bottle bomb, if enought yeast stay in suspension to carb my beer why isn't going to eat the other sugar i haven't the force carb equpment yet so i can't kill the yast

 

[Nico93]

this yeast is a absolutely monster! it tooks it down to 1000! i'm going to bottle a small part as and add a touch of maltodextrin to the other part!

the abv is around 13%, it absolutely need some time to age!

 

[Nico93]

i added some maltodextrin (10 gravity point) i know it's a lot but i'm using it as experiment...

so, after i added the maltodextrin,it started bubbling again! now is still bubbling and the gravity goes down to 1005!
so it's eating the maltodextrin! this yeast is abnormal!

I think that I bought not enough complex maltodextrin...

 

[jessup]

Bubbles probably gave a false grav reading. Only logical explanation. No way yeast ate maltodextrin, dont think thats possible.
Wow on 1.000 though thats a huge flippin beverage. Careful with that axe Eugene!

 

[Big Monk]

Better luck next time.

 

[Nico93]

Bubbles probably gave a false grav reading. Only logical explanation. No way yeast ate maltodextrin, dont think thats possible.
Wow on 1.000 though thats a huge flippin beverage. Careful with that axe Eugene!

i degassed the best i can , the next gravity reading i'll try to heat it in order to be sure that no gas affect my gravity reading!

i used maltodextrin for sportive (because no one homebrew shop in italy was selling maltodextrin, they start to sell it three days ago )

it definitevely need some time to age but it's not bad! i like it!

Better luck next time.

the next time i'll try to brew it, i'll oxygenate with pure oxygen! i'm going to buy a 02 tank to me for christmas, i think that the initial problem of this beer is oxygen

 

[Big Monk]

i degassed the best i can , the next gravity reading i'll try to heat it in order to be sure that no gas affect my gravity reading!



i used maltodextrin for sportive (because no one homebrew shop in italy was selling maltodextrin, they start to sell it three days ago )



it definitevely need some time to age but it's not bad! i like it!









the next time i'll try to brew it, i'll oxygenate with pure oxygen! i'm going to buy a 02 tank to me for christmas, i think that the initial problem of this beer is oxygen

Or use a mixstir. How big was your starter?

 

[Nico93]

i splashed a lot of time from one fermenter to the other, i think that i archived the maximum oxygen solubility using air!

i made a 1,2+2+2,5 liter starter shaking it periodically

 

[Nico93]

i think i can say that the maltodextrin that i bought is fermentable, i don't understand how this is possible but.....

i think i'm going to play (experiment) a little bit with this beer!

 

[jessup]

Fortify and call it port. Maybe age some on cherries? Age on oak for a year +
It will prob age gracefully!

 

[Nico93]

this could be a great idea!
i don't have a barrel usable for this (i have only one that i use for sours!) but i can use some chips! cherries sounds good!

but first i'll let it finish, i'm courius to see how low can finish!

 

[Nico93]

i looked for cherries but in this time of year i can't put me hand on! i think i'm going to use some raspberries!

 

[BlueHouseBrewhaus]

I didn't realize when I first checked in on this thread (post #5) that I was going to end up in the same boat. Nico, I had the exact same thing happen. My holiday brew got stuck at 1026 in late November. OG was 1065. I stirred and warmed up and added some sugar and pitched some 05 and nothing worked. I finally pitched some 099.

Fast forward to late December and it was at 1004. I added about 10 points worth of malto and lactose and got it back up over 1010. Then it started fermenting again!

After 8 weeks, it finally settled at 1007. I bottled at 2.2 vol to have a safety factor against bottle bombs. I couldn't believe it fermented so far without an infection. It never showed any signs and I've sampled one just to be sure. It tasted quite "hot" and yeasty (after the original yeast plus 05 plus 099 I'm not surprised) but no indication of infection.

I am one of those guys that refuse to dump a batch unless there is absolutely no choice. I will let this brew sit and sample one every 3 months or so. If it still hasn't improved in a year I will call it a lesson learned and dump it. But ... you never know. I've had worse tasting brews that ended up fine with time.

 

[Nico93]

so, this yeast is a beast

I hope yours as mine improve with age!

 

[BlueHouseBrewhaus]

I plan on giving it a good 6 months before I try it. We'll see