Roasting Quaker Old Fashion Oats?

[capt82]

I'm going to brew a Cream Ale with corn sugar (5%). I want to also add some oats (1-3%) and had this thought:

Does anyone oven roast Quaker Old Fashion Oats? Seems it would add a nutty flavor, darker golden color, and help the sugars become more fermentable. I have never used oats with the BE-134 so I'm not sure how the AA would end up.

 

[day_trippr]

I see references to oven "toasting" Quaker oats, spreading a shallow amount in cooking pans and putting them in the oven at 350°F for 15-20 minutes...

Cheers!

 

[Witherby]

I won’t be able to get to my copy today, but Randy Mosher talks about this in Radical Brewing, and I think he says it adds a dimension of oatmeal cookies, which I’m not sure I’d want in a cream ale.

 

[IslandLizard]

At only 1-3% I doubt you'd notice much, toasted or not. So it may be quite subtle although it surely won't hurt to toast them.
Just don't burn them, you would notice that!

Keep an eye on them while toasting.
I use the electric broiler on low and put the tray on the 2nd rung down from the top. About 4-6" under the coils. You could start on a lower rung and raise when it doesn't do much.

Check often and scoop 'em over a few times. You'll see them turning light brown, with some darker brown spots, given enough time. Taste along the toasting process to learn and evaluate how toasty you want them.

 

[PCABrewing]

You'll see them turning light brown, with some darker brown spots, given enough time. Taste along the toasting process to learn and evaluate how toasty you want them.

Now I'm hungry...
Might try it with Steel Cut oats.

 

[hotbeer]

The difference between toasted and burned will be micro seconds. Especially for the rolled oats. I use to try toasting in a pan my steel cut oats for breakfast, but I found they too were either not enough to notice the taste or burnt.


Perhaps my impatience had me using too much heat. But give it a try and let us know.

 

[PCABrewing]

The difference between toasted and burned will be micro seconds. Especially for the rolled oats. I use to try toasting in a pan my steel cut oats for breakfast, but I found they too were either not enough to notice the taste or burnt.


Perhaps my impatience had me using too much heat. But give it a try and let us know.

Do you think the problem is with the thickness, steel cut being more variable and thicker?

 

[capt82]

At only 1-3% I doubt you'd notice much, toasted or not. So it may be quite subtle although it surely won't hurt to toast them.
Just don't burn them, you would notice that!

I'm not really looking to add a flavor as much as I'm looking more for fermentability and creaminess from the oats. I just don't want to loose any AA and create haze.

 

[Yooper]

I'm not really looking to add a flavor as much as I'm looking more for fermentability and creaminess from the oats. I just don't want to loose any AA and create haze.

Lose AA? What's that mean?

You will create haze with oats, but you could get some creaminess with 1/2 pound or so in a 5 gallon batch. Maybe.

Toasting them will create a slight toastiness to the beer, if you use enough oats to notice it.

But a 'cream ale' is anything but creamy or toasty. That's fine if you're not planning on entering it in a competition (cream ale is closer to a light lager than any other category) and instead want a light colored beer with some slight haze and maybe some flavor (very very little) or creaminess (again, very little).

 

[capt82]

Lose AA? What's that mean?

You will create haze with oats, but you could get some creaminess with 1/2 pound or so in a 5 gallon batch. Maybe.

Toasting them will create a slight toastiness to the beer, if you use enough oats to notice it.

But a 'cream ale' is anything but creamy or toasty. That's fine if you're not planning on entering it in a competition (cream ale is closer to a light lager than any other category) and instead want a light colored beer with some slight haze and maybe some flavor (very very little) or creaminess (again, very little).

Apparent Attenuation. My understanding is sugars from oats are hard to convert compared to malted barley sugars. I experience the poor attenuation using US-05. I am going to use BE-134 which in my opinion is a rock star when it comes to attenuation. I hit my FG every time. I was thinking if the oats were toasted (making the sugars easier to convert?) along with a strong yeast, I would get some creaminess without the haze and hopefully nice and crisp.

 

[day_trippr]

I would think toasting would actually attenuate fermentability as in general the darker the grain the less fermentable...

Cheers!

 

[Yooper]

Apparent Attenuation. My understanding is sugars from oats are hard to convert compared to malted barley sugars. I experience the poor attenuation using US-05. I am going to use BE-134 which in my opinion is a rock star when it comes to attenuation. I hit my FG every time. I was thinking if the oats were toasted (making the sugars easier to convert?) along with a strong yeast, I would get some creaminess without the haze and hopefully nice and crisp.

No, if you mash the oats with malted grain, it will not be less fermentable than other grains.

I make oatmeal stout, and have no issues with attenuation with up to 10% flaked oats.

 

[capt82]

No, if you mash the oats with malted grain, it will not be less fermentable than other grains.

Thanks. I just reviewed Palmers book, the "Other Grains and Adjuncts" chapter. "Oats need to be mashed with barley malt (and its enzymes) for conversion". I guess this means the poor AA I had in past wasn't from the oats, but more likely from the yeast. I guess I can discard that toasting thought.

Now I'm curious how much haze the BE-134 can clean up? I think I will still keep it to about 3% grain bill hoping any benefits outweigh any undesirables.

 

[IslandLizard]

I guess this means the poor AA I had in past wasn't from the oats, but more likely from the yeast.

Are you brewing with (malt) extracts?
Have you steeped grain/malts before?

If so, and you want to use flaked/rolled oats, toasted or not, you need to do a (mini) mash with them and some barley malt to convert the starches into fermentable sugars.

Mashing is like steeping, just a bit more controlled, ingredients and temperature wise, and usually takes an hour.

 

[capt82]

Are you brewing with (malt) extracts?
Have you steeped grain/malts before?

If so, and you want to use flaked/rolled oats, toasted or not, you need to do a (mini) mash with them and some barley malt to convert the starches into fermentable sugars.

Mashing is like steeping, just a bit more controlled, ingredients and temperature wise, and usually takes an hour.

No. All grain only. I didn't realize that the barley malt enzymes help convert the starches from the oats to fermentable sugars. With good efficiencies, I never questioned the extraction of sugars from the oats, but the types of sugars from the oats, weather or not they were getting converted to alcohol by the yeast, like with using darker barley grains.

 

[IslandLizard]

No. All grain only.

Ah, good!

I didn't realize that the barley malt enzymes help convert the starches from the oats to fermentable sugars.

Yeah, that's the idea when using (non-diastatic, starchy) adjuncts in a (diastatic) grist mix.

The ability of malt to convert starches into sugars is called diastatic power (DP). The higher the DP the more adjuncts can be added for full conversion.

DP is measured in °Lintner. You want to keep the average DP of your grist mix above 50 for full and speedy conversion. This all in Palmer's book.

Now when you toast your rolled oats very dark (say, coffee bean color) they will not convert fully, or at all. They're basically burnt to some degree. You really don't want to toast them even closely to being that dark, it's not going to taste good!

When toasting the rolled oats keep scooping them over (with a spatula) so the whole bunch will get evenly toasted without any of them burning. That's how it develops flavor and color. Taste a few flakes each time before scooping them over to get an idea of their flavor and progress.
How long they need to toast before scooping them over depends on the heat level of the oven (or closeness to the broiler coils). Just keep an eye on them. Slow is better than fast and prevents burning them. Expect at least half an hour total before they're done, especially when the oat layer is thicker.

 

[whoaru99]

The difference between toasted and burned will be micro seconds. Especially for the rolled oats. I use to try toasting in a pan my steel cut oats for breakfast, but I found they too were either not enough to notice the taste or burnt.


Perhaps my impatience had me using too much heat. But give it a try and let us know.

Occasionally I'll roast some pecans or other raw nuts. Same type of deal, they go from nicely roasted to burnt real quick and they're a whole lot bigger pieces so I can imagine how quickly the oats might go.

 

[IslandLizard]

Occasionally I'll roast some pecans or other raw nuts. Same type of deal, they go from nicely roasted to burnt real quick and they're a whole lot bigger pieces so I can imagine how quickly the oats might go.

I toasted 5.5 pounds of flaked wheat, under the coil broiler in the oven.

Surprisingly they didn't toast all that quickly, but I kept them at a safe distance from the broiler elements (4" perhaps?).

It took a good hour in total, using 2 "half-pans" above one another, switching them out with every turning of the flakes. It turned out very well, making for a tasty and interesting "Toasted Wheat Beer."

 

[Beekeeper]

I won’t be able to get to my copy today, but Randy Mosher talks about this in Radical Brewing, and I think he says it adds a dimension of oatmeal cookies, which I’m not sure I’d want in a cream ale.

In Randy's "Oatmeal Cookie Ale" he says that for one pound of amber malt called for in his brown ale recipe, he substitutes 1 pound of rolled oats "toasted at 300 degrees F until they start to smell like cookies."

 

[Witherby]

In Randy's "Oatmeal Cookie Ale" he says that for one pound of amber malt called for in his brown ale recipe, he substitutes 1 pound of rolled oats "toasted at 300 degrees F until they start to smell like cookies."

Here's the passage from Radical Brewing that I was remembering (in the section on "Twelve Ways to Improve a Stout":

7. Oddball roasted grains: Fire up the oven! You can make all kinds of roasted grain you can't buy at the homebrew shop. Wheat, oats, buckwheat and other grains can be toasted, and each can lend a unique twist to your stout. I especially love the taste of toasted oats, the same intoxicating aroma created by baking oatmeal cookies. This aroma carries through well into the fermented beer, lending an unforgettable richness to your stout. Toast at 350F (177C) until oats are starting to turn golden and the kitchen smells like cookies. One note on home roasting grain: various harsh chemicals are created during roasting that make beer unpleasantly rough and slow to clear. Allow two weeks for these to waft away between roasting and brewing.

 

[Bramling Cross]

Ah, good!

Yeah, that's the idea when using (non-diastatic, starchy) adjuncts in a (diastatic) grist mix.

The ability of malt to convert starches into sugars is called diastatic power (DP). The higher the DP the more adjuncts can be added for full conversion.

DP is measured in °Lintner. You want to keep the average DP of your grist mix above 50 for full and speedy conversion. This all in Palmer's book.

Now when you toast your rolled oats very dark (say, coffee bean color) they will not convert fully, or at all. They're basically burnt to some degree. You really don't want to toast them even closely to being that dark, it's not going to taste good!

When toasting the rolled oats keep scooping them over (with a spatula) so the whole bunch will get evenly toasted without any of them burning. That's how it develops flavor and color. Taste a few flakes each time before scooping them over to get an idea of their flavor and progress.
How long they need to toast before scooping them over depends on the heat level of the oven (or closeness to the broiler coils). Just keep an eye on them. Slow is better than fast and prevents burning them. Expect at least half an hour total before they're done, especially when the oat layer is thicker.

A typically excellent Lizard post.

I would like to add, nevertheless, that it's beneficial to toast your grains/malts then seal them in an an airtight container for at least two weeks to "relax." Recently roasted/toasted grains can have a harsh, astringent, nasty quality--I sure learned about that when I used to make brown malt.

That said, oats are very forgiving, despite how greasy they are. Still, they benefit from a week or two of relaxation. Stick them in a jar that is twice their volume and give them a shake a few times over the course of a week or two.

 

[IslandLizard]

I would like to add, nevertheless, that it's beneficial to toast your grains/malts then seal them in an an airtight container for at least two weeks to "relax." Recently roasted/toasted grains can have a harsh, astringent, nasty quality--I sure learned about that when I used to make brown malt.

Thank you for emphasizing the benefits of a relaxation period!
I've never tasted the need for it, perhaps because I was very gentle with the toasting, preventing burning. But I will surely incorporate a rest period next time, making it even better.

 

[Bramling Cross]

Thank you for emphasizing the benefits of a relaxation period!
I've never tasted the need for it, perhaps because I was very gentle with the toasting, preventing burning. But I will surely incorporate a rest period next time, making it even better.

Nah, I mention that only because I used to have to regularly make brown and amber malt. Brown malt really, really needs to chill for a bit. Amber, too. Surprisingly, just as much.

Oats, despite their fat content, seem to get away with murder. A common theme, in my experience.

I'd like to write about my thoughts regarding the efficacy of oats, but I realize this isn't the place.

 

[capt82]

Nah, I mention that only because I used to have to regularly make brown and amber malt. Brown malt really, really needs to chill for a bit. Amber, too. Surprisingly, just as much.

Oats, despite their fat content, seem to get away with murder. A common theme, in my experience.

Any input on roasted oat coloring? I know that all depends on how much roasting but would an oat and a barley contribute the same amount of color provided they had the same amount of roasting? Without burning oats, could you get, say, 100-150 SRM?