RO, what additions for IPA

[bigdongsr94]

So I brew with between 70-80%RO and typically make pales or IPAs. I add around 1 tsp CaCl2 and 1-2 tsp CaSO4. I add some lactic also. I know I need to provide all my info for a good answer but what other additions are people adding to RO? I brew AG but really have bever got the taste I have from brewing extract. Something seems off and I have messed with my system and now I am on to water.

 

[Dr. Francois]

Are the mineral additions you cite per 5 gallons or total for the entire batch?

Have you checked your mash pH?

 

[bigdongsr94]

Minerals are Total batch added premash. 5 1/2G final volume. pH is checked and logged religiously.
Really just looking for what others add to their RO.

 

[beerandloathinginaustin]

I use this spreadsheet and this one as well.

Those two in conjunction are very helpful for me as far as picking out water profiles, calculating how much of each salt I'll need etc.

I use gypsum, epsom salt, Calcium Chloride, Lactic Acid, Chalk, Pickling Lime, & canning salt in all different amounts depending on the water I'm building.

The brewing network had a string of 4 water shows that I took notes on for a blog post a while back.

Also there was a recent Brewing Network show where Jamil & John Palmer discussed some of the findings in the new water book. For instance, chalk effects flavor but doesn't have any impact on mash pH (as was previously thought). Here's the link.

Finally, I just bought this fancy pH meter for mash measurements and so far I'm very happy with it. Almost as happy as I am with my thermapen.

Hope that helps in your pursuit of IPA water greatness!

 

[Yooper]

Minerals are Total batch added premash. 5 1/2G final volume. pH is checked and logged religiously.
Really just looking for what others add to their RO.

When I'm making an IPA, I generally add gypsum to my RO water, and sometimes a bit of calcium chloride (not much).

That's it, and usually my pH is in the 5.4 range. If it's higher, I use a bit of acid malt or lactic acid to bring it to 5.5 or lower. It really depends on the grainbill on how the pH drops (or not).

I've been experimenting with taking my sulfate level to 250-300 for the hoppiest IPAs, and it's been working out very well.

 

[Weezy]

I use straight RO with 1gm/gallon gypsum and zero CaCl2 for clean hoppy beers.

You say 70-80% RO...what's the other 20-30%? tap water? what's that profile like? Is there chlorine/chloramine to worry about?

 

[beerandloathinginaustin]

I use straight RO with 1gm/gallon gypsum and zero CaCl2 for clean hoppy beers.

You say 70-80%...what's the other 20-30%? tap water? what's that profile like? Is there chlorine/chloramine to worry about?

I'm assuming he's Brita filtering or boiling his tap if he's into it enough to take religious pH readings, but then again who knows. Good point. For blending I find the EZ water spreadsheet pretty handy btw.

 

[bigdongsr94]

Thanks a lot all. I use ez and bru'nwater. I build to the profiles in bru'n but I still just can't get "to die for" beers. They are ok and some pretty good. I can always taste something...just not as good as when I did extract but it's hard to say. Extract to me always ends up very sweet so it may have masked any flavors and I only did a few so it really may not have been what I remember. My latest disappointment was a pliny clone. Added 8g CaSO4 and 4g CaCl. If that's all others are adding...I think that's not the issue. I do cut my RO with tap. Water company gave me the numbers and no chloramine/chlorine. It's rated one of the best in the state though that doesn't mean anything for brewing. I need to post them. Also should just cut with bottles once.

 

[Yooper]

Thanks a lot all. I use ez and bru'nwater. I build to the profiles in bru'n but I still just can't get "to die for" beers. They are ok and some pretty good. I can always taste something...just not as good as when I did extract but it's hard to say. Extract to me always ends up very sweet so it may have masked any flavors and I only did a few so it really may not have been what I remember. My latest disappointment was a pliny clone. Added 8g CaSO4 and 4g CaCl. If that's all others are adding...I think that's not the issue. I do cut my RO with tap. Water company gave me the numbers and no chloramine/chlorine. It's rated one of the best in the state though that doesn't mean anything for brewing. I need to post them. Also should just cut with bottles once.

If you post the recipe, the water profile, the mash pH, and the additions you made, we can help you figure out if that is the problem.

One question I have is about the spreadsheets you're using- when you use EZ water and bru'nwater, do they agree? They never have agreed for me, and when I compared three spreadsheets (those two and Braukaiser's), the EZ was always high when compared to my actual pH. In other words, if you're using both of those spreadsheets and the pH is matching the actual AND each other, I'm suspicious of your readings.

 

[ajdelange]

For instance, chalk effects flavor but doesn't have any impact on mash pH (as was previously thought).

Either you didn't hear that right or misinterpreted what they said. Chalk doesn't have much of an effect on flavor except through it's effect on pH as calcium ion is not very flavor active.

What they may have said about pH is that chalk is not an effective means of controlling pH as the reactions in which it takes place are very slow reactions and the proton deficit of the solved carbonate is to some extent cancelled by the proton surfeit from the solved calcium reacting with malt phosphate.

As for what to add to RO for an IPA: that can be all over the map. I just add a bit of calcium chloride. Some will tell you that I'm nuts for not adding lots of or at least some sulfate. I like the beer better the way I do it and, obviously, those who would think me nuts wouldn't. How much chloride and how much sulfate you should add are matters of your personal taste. I should point out that my aversion to sulfate is not the norm - most brewers would use some.

It is probable that your problem lies elsewhere. Brew with 1/2 tsp each calcium chloride and gypsum in 5 gal water. That is guaranteed to give you a non problem beer if you do everything else right. If your AG beers are not better than your extract beers you haven't mastered AG brewing yet. Do so and then turn to fine tuning the water.

 

[beerandloathinginaustin]

Either you didn't hear that right or misinterpreted what they said. Chalk doesn't have much of an effect on flavor except through it's effect on pH as calcium ion is not very flavor active.

What they may have said about pH is that chalk is not an effective means of controlling pH as the reactions in which it takes place are very slow reactions and the proton deficit of the solved carbonate is to some extent cancelled by the proton surfeit from the solved calcium reacting with malt phosphate.

They didn't comment on the degree to which chalk would effect flavor, just that it would. And yes, technically they said a large amount of chalk would initially effect pH but then it would fall again quickly. Palmer was saying it would take up to 3 hours for it to actually start working from a mash pH perspective.

What I took away from all that was use something else unless I think the chalk specifically is contributing to the flavor positively.

I second Yooper as far as getting more details so we can try to help figure out if your water building is your problem. I'd be tempted to run that tap water through a Brita first no matter what my water company told me.

 

[ajdelange]

And yes, technically they said a large amount of chalk would initially effect pH but then it would fall again quickly.

That's not really true. At higher pH (by which I mean higher than the pH one would be trying to reach by the use of chalk) the calcium reaction can produce protons faster than the malt/carbonate can absorb them and the pH does drop temporarily.

Palmer was saying it would take up to 3 hours for it to actually start working from a mash pH perspective.

That is true but again it is at pH > mash pH where this effect is seen. The whole story (or the part of it that is known now by me anyway) is at
http://wetnewf.org/pdfs/chalk.html

What I took away from all that was use something else unless I think the chalk specifically is contributing to the flavor positively.

Well that is indeed the bottom line!

 

[mabrungard]

Thanks for writing up that information on the time and pH dependent response of chalk, AJ. Now I have a place to send the doubters. I added a link to your presentation on the Water Knowledge page of the Bru'n Water site.