RO Water Bicarbonate Addition?

[brewpool]

I brew 5.5 gallon all grain batches and build from a 100% RO profile. I have used Bru n Water for the past five batches but only for purpose of estimating pH. For IPAs I typically add gypsum and calcium chloride which results in the folowing profile (my sulfate amount is admittedly low for an IPA) with an estimated pH of 5.4:
Ca 85 So 74 Cl 96

I read through the Palmer Water book recently and am ready to build a full RO water profile. I viewed the Pale Ale profile in Bru n Water and both that profile and the Water book call for some bicarbonate (~110 ppm). I've read conflicting information stating that you really don't want to add bicarbonate unless you need more alkalinity. The pH is high enough without it and requires some acidity to lower it to 5.4. If I follow the targeted profile, I would end up adding gypsum, Epsom salt, baking soda, calcium chloride, and a small amount of chalk (0.6 g) which results in a pH of 5.5 (so I would add 1 oz of acid malt) and the following profile:
Ca 138 Mg 18 Na 25 SO4 293 Cl 57 Bicarbonate 109

Should I add any bicarbonate to this RO build using chalk?

 

[Yooper]

Dump the chalk- it doesn't dissolve well without extraneous measures.

If you need alkalinity to hit an appropriate mash pH, use baking soda.

 

[ajdelange]

Confronted with the water profile you give (Ca 138 Mg 18 Na 25 SO4 293 Cl 57 Bicarbonate 109) the first thing a brewer would do is figure out how to get rid of the alkalinity the vast majority of which is caused by the bicarbonate and if you are going to brew a pale ale with this water you must do the same thing. A brewer in the UK would add a mixture of hydrochloric and sulfuric acids thus increasing the sulfate and chloride levels (without increasing the calcium level). A brewer on the continent would add lime to the water thus removing much of the bicarbonate and an equivalent (in the chemical sense) amount of calcium at the same time. The rest he would take out with sauermalz or sauergut. What you choose to do (you also have the option of using lactic acid) depends on the amounts of calcium, sulfate and chloride you want to go into the mash. There is an easier way. Just don't add the alkalinity when you prepare the water. Then you don't have to deal with taking it back out again. Adding alkali and then neutralizing it with acid is like taking heroin with naloxone. What's the point?

This is one of the problems of slavish adherence to profiles. One obtains information from some source to the effect that a particular beer should be brewed with, in this example, Ca 138 Mg 18 Na 25 SO4 293 and Cl 57 mg/L and then quickly observes that this set of ions has a net positive charge of 1.79 mEq/L. In a physically realizable water that must be balanced by 1.79 mEq/L of negative charge. If a brewer is to implement this water where does that come from? In potable water it can only come from hydroxyl ions, bicarbonate ions and carbonate ions. But how much of each? There are an infinite number of combinations of Ca(OH)2, NaOH, NaHCO3, Na2CO3, CaCO3 etc which can supply the necessary negative charge. One could get it from water to which only Ca(OH)2 and NaOH have been added in sufficient quantity to get the pH to 11.25 with no bicarbonate whatsoever. But that's not a reasonable pH. Brun water treats alkalinity and bicarbonate pretty much as if they are the same thing and so has adopted the approach of declaring all profiles as having pH 8.3 and then supplying enough bicarbonate to neutralize the excess positive charge of the cations.

So what then is a brewer who wants to brew and IPA to do? Obtain the relevant monograph(s) (by Terry Foster) from the Brewers Publications series and find out about the water mineral content that is typical for these beers. Then take any one of the spreadsheets and add salts to RO water until you get mineral content that is typical. You don't need to be right on by any means. In another current thread I talk about the fact that the chemical reactions of mashing, fermentation and tasting depend on the logs of concentrations, not their arithmetic values so that a change of 20 or 30 % isn't going to make much difference. Don't use bicarbonates, carbonates, hydroxides etc to establish your water chemistry. The water you prepare in this way will have 0 alkalinity.

Now you still have to deal with the alkalinity (positive or negative) of your malts. In most cases the malt alkalinity will be positive and you will have to add some acid to the mash but in the case of dark beers, especially ones in which you want a relatively high mash pH as some people do when they use a lot of roast malt believing that it leads to smoother roastiness, it may be negative and you will need some alkali. This akali is for the malts but it is convenient to add it to the mash water and gets it into contact with the grain faster than dumping it in to doughed in mash.

 

[DTM-oh]

I'm Planning to brew a Westvleteren 12 Clone (18E. Dark Strong Ale). I wanted to try making a water profile that would approximate a recommended profile;
Ca-114, Mg-10, Na-125, SO4-145, Cl-139, Bicarbonate HCO3-302. PH 5.4 to 5.6.

I have never really try to make a profile yet, but thought this one might be a good candidate. My home water is:
Ca-76, Mg-32, NaCl-17, SO4-30, Cl-37, Bicarbonate HCO3-304. PH-7.8

As I tried using three calculators, EZ water, Palmer & Bur n; using RO water from 0% to 100%. I cannot even come close to meeting the recommended mineral content and PH range.

Is there any chance someone has been able to have this Bicarbonate level and a PH in 5.4 to 5.6? I must be doing something wrong.

 

[ajdelange]

Remember what was said above about profiles? The people who gin them up really don't fully understand the chemistry, think they have to have certain levels of cations, find the SO4 and Cl don't always balance the profiles and throw in bicarbonate to achieve that balance. There is no way you would want to brew with water with bicarbonate content of 302 - thats 5 mEq/L alkalinity!. Confronted with water with 5 mEq/L alkalinity and 114 mg/L calcium (5.5 mEq/L) the first thing a brewer would do is boil it thus reducing alkalinity and hardness to much more reasonable levels of about 1 mEq/L each.

 

[DTM-oh]

Remember what was said above about profiles? The people who gin them up really don't fully understand the chemistry, think they have to have certain levels of cations, find the SO4 and Cl don't always balance the profiles and throw in bicarbonate to achieve that balance. There is no way you would want to brew with water with bicarbonate content of 302 - thats 5 mEq/L alkalinity!. Confronted with water with 5 mEq/L alkalinity and 114 mg/L calcium (5.5 mEq/L0 the first thing he would do is boil it thus reducing alkalinity and hardness to much more reasonable levels of 1 mEq/L each.

Thanks for your help, as you can tell, this is a new path for me and I need a lot of help and guidance. This is my first attempt at a Belgium style and I was worried that my water or RO water was not working. The Bicarb was my first suspicion/concern.

Thanks again.

 

[Big Monk]

I tend to stick with a "House" profile for most, if not all beers:

40/0/0/0/70/0 -> Ca/Mg/Na/SO4/Cl/HCO3

I then basically adjust the sulfate depending on beer style if needed, although my sulfate typically comes from my use of Metabisulfite as an oxygen scavenger for Low Oxygen brewing. That typically contributes around 32 ppm sulfate so far the most part I don't do anything else.

I was shown this method by my main collaborator, who used the same profile for all of his beers, only bumping up the sulfate for his pale ale.

I found through research that most of the time, the quoted water profiles are from municipal sources and are untreated. A thread you'll find in the quotes of brewers from various regions around the world is that they either have or want softer water to brew with.

We have the luxury of starting off with that if we choose.

 

[mabrungard]

That is a fairly highly mineralized water profile for a Dark Strong. It wouldn't be my first choice. A lesser level is my recommendation.

I suggest that having less than about 70 ppm SO4 and 50 ppm Cl is about right for that style. Having 50 ppm or more Ca is appropriate. Any other ions should be a minor levels. A bit of bicarbonate might be needed in a Dark Strong grist, but its probably not much...if any.

 

[DTM-oh]

I want to ask about my water properties in a general way. My water is
Ca 76 -- Mg 32 -- Na 17 -- Cl 37 -- SO4 30 -- HCO 302 & PH 7.8
If I add lactic acid - 7 ml to mash and 9 ml to sparge I get a PH of 5.42.
My new profile is;
Ca 76 -- Mg 32 -- Na 17 -- Cl 37 -- SO4 30 -- HCO 45 & PH 5.42

My interest is not to try and replicate Burton or Dusseldorf, but just use a profile that dose not create any problems; but have 1 or 2 profiles that will improve the the brewing most of my beer's. PH has been my only goal in the past. IPA, Stout, Porter and Barley wines are my most often brews. Also my Stouts are the most successful projects and my IPA's need improvement.

I did look into Bru'n Water, but came away confused. Any suggestions or advice would be appreciated.

 

[Yooper]

I want to ask about my water properties in a general way. My water is
Ca 76 -- Mg 32 -- Na 17 -- Cl 37 -- SO4 30 -- HCO 302 & PH 7.8
If I add lactic acid - 7 ml to mash and 9 ml to sparge I get a PH of 5.42.
My new profile is;
Ca 76 -- Mg 32 -- Na 17 -- Cl 37 -- SO4 30 -- HCO 45 & PH 5.42

My interest is not to try and replicate Burton or Dusseldorf, but just use a profile that dose not create any problems; but have 1 or 2 profiles that will improve the the brewing most of my beer's. PH has been my only goal in the past. IPA, Stout, Porter and Barley wines are my most often brews. Also my Stouts are the most successful projects and my IPA's need improvement.

I did look into Bru'n Water, but came away confused. Any suggestions or advice would be appreciated.

I think your magnesium is a bit too high, and the only way to reduce that is dilution with RO or distilled water. I'd like to see the magnesium at 25 ppm or less.

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

In my opinion it would be better for us homebrewers if "canned" water profile solutions intended for certain styles had never been dreamed of.

 

[ajdelange]

I think your magnesium is a bit too high, and the only way to reduce that is dilution with RO or distilled water.

Actually there is. Were he to raise the pH high enough with lime the magnesium would precipitate out as the hydroxide and the clear water can be decanted. Now, of course, the pH has to be restored to a reasonable value and this is often done with the 'acid' bicarbonate in the untreated water. This is called 'split treatment' and can remove about half the magesium but also, of course, takes out the calcium too.

RO is a much simpler solution.