RIMS vs HERMS...Your opinions please

[orangehero]

Assuming they are both set up correctly stability should not be different between the two methods.

Some more options to ponder are:
A) Full size HLT but use CFC instead of permanently mounted coil
-PRO's: can use smaller HLT for slight increase in ramping rate, prevent scorching

B) Have a separate vessel (or RIMS tube) for heating water to use in CFC
-PRO's: prevent scorching while having high ramping rate

 

[Big-H]

Nice rig!

 

[Big-H]

I'm kinda of leaning towards a RIMs upgrade. Seems it would be easy to clean, responsive and versatile. I like the fact that you could be doing a multi step step mash while heating the HLT to sparge temp.

Anyone had any experience with this one?

https://www.brewershardware.com/Tri-Clover-RIMS-Tube-RIMS20.html

They also offer a 1.5 inch tube of the same design.

Your thoughts?

 

[atoughram]

Nice rig!

Thank You!

 

[blizz81]

My single-vessel RIMS build (over time). Still heat strike water on the stove, still boil in the garage.

https://plus.google.com/photos/1073...s/5998086480059210065?authkey=CJiGnJ3dpPrL_wE

 

[Dog House Brew]

I built a HERMS because it was easy to add the coil to the HLT. I generally fill my BK with sparge water, and fill the HLT with my strike water. Once I dough in, I pump my heated sparge water to my HLT. I recirculate both the water and wort. It does filter the wort clear and maintain temps. I also use it raise to mash out temps. I have a 50' x 1/2" stainless coil. It is slow as molasses. I generally do 12-15 gallon batches. There just is no way to do any real step mashes IMO with the HERMS coil. It is too slow, where the RIMS is much faster. If I were building from scratch, I would be building a RIMS tube with tri fittings. I would have to taste the difference for me to build either the next time. I'm more into the simple, single infusion gig now. I use the HERMS because I have it, not sure I'm making better beer because of it.

 

[Big-H]

Question for all the folks using RIMS tubes.

I see some only use elements at 120V and I assume some use 240V. If a person used a 240V element wouldn't the PID and sensor control the heat to prevent scorching?

Is there a way to conveniently switch from 120V to 240V? I have a system similar to The Electric Brewery design.

I'm sure this question has been asked before but I couldn't find a good thread on it.

Thank you in advance for your advice.

 

[augiedoggy]

Depends on The element. I have a 240 25" long 1000w, element which is less than 29watts per sq inch density... my rims uses a cartridge heater.

 

[atoughram]

If a person used a 240V element wouldn't the PID and sensor control the heat to prevent scorching?

Yes - It should....

BUT

If you have a long RIMS tube, a short element, and the sensor in opposite of the element with some room between them, in a low flow situation, the element can cook the mash before the sensor sees it.

In your design, make sure that your element and the sensor are as close as possible so that the system reacts quickly.

 

[Big-H]

In your design, make sure that your element and the sensor are as close as possible so that the system reacts quickly.

Good advice,

 

[Big-H]

Thats what I have so far, but I have another shorter section of the straight tube. I think that would be better to get the sensor really close to the element. I'll post more as I get it assembled right now I'm waiting for a few fittings to come from Brewers Hardware.

 

[Loodachris]

Good advice,

Which element is that and where did you get it if you remember?

 

[Big-H]

Which element is that and where did you get it if you remember?

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000PSB3B2/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20

 

[helibrewer]

I use a 120V, 1650LWD element in my RIM's. There is no issue getting the output of the RIMs high enough, you are heating a fairly small quantity of liquid...step mashing is more a function of your recirc rate...I think Blichmann says you need 2 gallons per minute flow rate to get good step response.

This is mine with a flow meter on the pump output:

 

[Loodachris]

6000 watt element wow. Nothing wrong with that i'm sure but i'm only using a 2000 watt 240v foldback. Smaller element than that and using my thermapen to measure the output it works great and spot on but wanted to get stainless. Thanks for the link

 

[Big-H]

6000 watt element wow.

Well it might be overkill after reading what everyone else is using. you can bet I'll be doing a bit of water testing before committing to a full scale brew.

I'm hoping that the flow and the combination of the sensor and PID control will keep the temps in check. If not I can always back down on the wattage or voltage.

My goal is to have a responsive system. I dislike the lag time of the HERMS coil I've been using. My experience has been something like this:

• Calculate strike temp
• Set HLT/HERMS to desired mash temp
• Wait for mash temp to come up
• Decide that mash temp isn't going to come up to desired temp
• Raise HLT/HERMS temp a few degrees
• Watch mash temp come up slowly
• Realize mash temp is climbing higher than I wanted
• Lower HLT/HERMS temp
• Wait for mash temp to come back down
• Get pissed off because I've only been at the desired mash temp for 3 minutes out of 90

I've decided that I will figure out a way to control my temps.
Thats why I've been asking these questions. The ultimate goal is to make better beer, I think mash temp is part of the answer and ultimately be able to repeat the process when I make a beer I like.

Again any wisdom is appreciated.

 

[Big-H]

Which element is that and where did you get it if you remember?

Here's one that's 4500W by the same company.

http://www.amazon.com/dp/B0006JLVC6...20&ascsubtag=c881da3b33c792daca9da0fd3fdfb8ca

 

[Big-H]

This is mine with a flow meter on the pump output:

Do you remember where you got the flow meter?

 

[augiedoggy]

Well it might be overkill after reading what everyone else is using. you can bet I'll be doing a bit of water testing before committing to a full scale brew.

I'm hoping that the flow and the combination of the sensor and PID control will keep the temps in check. If not I can always back down on the wattage or voltage.

My goal is to have a responsive system. I dislike the lag time of the HERMS coil I've been using. My experience has been something like this:

• Calculate strike temp
• Set HLT/HERMS to desired mash temp
• Wait for mash temp to come up
• Decide that mash temp isn't going to come up to desired temp
• Raise HLT/HERMS temp a few degrees
• Watch mash temp come up slowly
• Realize mash temp is climbing higher than I wanted
• Lower HLT/HERMS temp
• Wait for mash temp to come back down
• Get pissed off because I've only been at the desired mash temp for 3 minutes out of 90

I've decided that I will figure out a way to control my temps.
Thats why I've been asking these questions. The ultimate goal is to make better beer, I think mash temp is part of the answer and ultimately be able to repeat the process when I make a beer I like.

Again any wisdom is appreciated.

Lol yep that sums up my experience with her ms too but it was because I wasn't circulating my hlt water and temps were uneven.

 

[Loodachris]

Here's one that's 4500W by the same company.

http://www.amazon.com/dp/B0006JLVC6...20&ascsubtag=c881da3b33c792daca9da0fd3fdfb8ca

Looks good. One person mentioned about the coating coming off after some brews.

 

[bd2xu]

I've tried direct fire rims (keggle) and now herms (copper coil in propane fired keggle HLT). The former worked well until I did a 3 step mash for a big lager and scorched a 10 gallon batch beyond repair. With this coil (50' 1/2" od) I can raise temp of the mash 2 degrees per minute with no chance of scorching. Another plus is I never have to fire my MLT anymore so I can always keep it insulated with a hot water heater wrap, which works well in keeping current temp steady.

Another difference with herms is that I now recirculate throughout the entire mash, even with a single step infusion (most common). To be determined on how that affects the beer, only have 2 beers in and fermenting on my new herms. But the wort was very clear going into the boil kettle.

 

[helibrewer]

Do you remember where you got the flow meter?

eBay - http://www.ebay.com/itm/Water-FLOWM...pm-/221374209464?ssPageName=ADME:L:OC:US:3160

 

[atoughram]

I can raise temp of the mash 2 degrees per minute

Are you raising the output of the HERMS coil two degrees per minute? Or are you raising the bulk of the mash two degrees per minute?

Where are you measuring this at?

 

[Big-H]

eBay - http://www.ebay.com/itm/Water-FLOWM...pm-/221374209464?ssPageName=ADME:L:OC:US:3160

Do you notice any discrepancy in the reading betwen wort and water (different specific gravity)?

 

[helibrewer]

Do you notice any discrepancy in the reading betwen wort and water (different specific gravity)?

Yes, wort indicates a slightly lower number. I mostly use it as a quick visual of how my recirc is going and to keep my sparge rate around .75 qts per minute.

 

[Big-H]

Ok, so I said I'd post when I completed a test.

I built a RIM's tube out of all sanitary fittings with a 6000 watt Low Watt Density element and I did a water test tonight.

I have a temp sensor measuring the RIMS tube temp and controlling the PID. I also had a temp sensor at the outlet of the Mash Tun to measure outlet temp

I started with 55º water, set the RIMs PID to 155º. In 14 minutes the water came up 100º, fairly responsive I thought. (should be able to use this to heat strike water) After the water was at temp the outlet temp continued to climb past the target of 155º to the highest of 158º. I let the circulation go for about 15 minutes but the outlet temp was continuously too high. I then bumped the controller temp down to 151º to see if it would regulate the outlet temp to the target of 155º. This seemed to be the magic number...4º lower than target, probably because even after the RIMS tube sensor shut off the element the temp continued to climb as the element gave up its heat.

I know that it will respond differently with a full charge of grain and the circulation flow rate will be slower but I did like the responsiveness of the rims tube. My HERMS system was ever so slow to change temp to the point of being too low or too high for most of the mash time. I think this is a system that will be responsive enough to be able to control the mash temp better. I guess I'll have to admit I'm a little worried about the high wattage element but it seemed to come on and off frequently enough and at the desired temp. This indicates to me that it will not get too hot to the point of scorching as everybody wrings their hands about. But I guess a brew day is the only way to find out.

I will keep you posted. If it scorches the wort...oh my! the horror!...I will tell you honestly.

Until then...

 

[BrokenHorn]

Thanks for posting your test results. What was the total volume of water in this test?

 

[atoughram]

I'd calibrate both of the temperature sensors in boiling water and then check them in ice water - make sure they are reading the same. Looking at your setup, it appears that the PT100 is quite a ways away from the element. If your flow is slow, the response of the system will be slow and the possibility of wort scorching will be higher. Try and get the PT100 probe as close to the element as possible.

Thanks for sharing your results!

 

[augiedoggy]

I'd calibrate both of the temperature sensors in boiling water and then check them in ice water - make sure they are reading the same. Looking at your setup, it appears that the PT100 is quite a ways away from the element. If your flow is slow, the response of the system will be slow and the possibility of wort scorching will be higher. Try and get the PT100 probe as close to the element as possible.

Thanks for sharing your results!

if mine were any closer they would touch... I can bring 4 gallons of water from 55 degrees to 162 in 1 hour and 45 minutes which is a bit slow but my mash tun is not insulated and it was only 64 degrees in the room with the mt in front of a window so.. This is with a 25" long 1/2" diameter cartridge heater..
This is also with my 24V 3gpm pump on full blast unrestricted which I think makes the biggest difference.

 

[atoughram]

if mine were any closer they would touch...

And it's probably darn near impossible to scorch the wort on your system too!