RIMS vs HERMS...Your opinions please

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Big-H

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I'm planning/building a new electric system, so I'm looking for well thought out opinions on the best way to maintain and step temperature for a recirculating mash on a 20 gallon MLT

Lets assume that the only criteria is a system that would allow a wide variety of mashing techniques and the best end product possible.

Please give the reasoning for your opinion. Thanks in advance.
 
I originally planned RIMS.
Below are the reasons I decided to go HERMS instead:

Freshly mixed mash will have some particulate matter in it, with RIMS this will get stuck on the element, and could clog the valve.

If the RIMS valve gets clogged while heat is on, you will scorch the wort in the RIMS tube.

No matter what happens with HERMS, your mash will never get hotter than the HLT temperature.

You need to heat the sparge water anyway, with HERMS only one element is needed. For RIMS you need one in the RIMS tube, and another in the HLT.

In HERMS system, the element is visible, so you can see potential issues.
 
someone started another thread with this exact question a week or two ago...there is a good discussion on the plus and minuses of both.
I would use the "search" function here and search "rims vs herms"

BTW a good false bottom and "properly setting the grainbed" should prevent any of the issues mentioned above.(it has for me).. I did have a scorching issue but it was caused by a design flaw in my homemade rims tube causing a tight dead space at the end with no flow... I have corrected this and have no issues now.
I used herms and rims and the rims is much quicker and capable of real step mashing but herms is more foolproof....
I like to think of herms as a nice safe reliable 4cylinder volvo and rims as a v8 powered fiberglass corvette by comparison.... either will get you there its your preference on how quickly and safely you want to do it.
 
I decided to go with a rims tube, for me it really boiled down to not wanting my wort flowing through a coil that I could never disassemble and visually see how clean it was. I just don't trust only running oxy clean or pbw through it...

I run a 6000w lwd density element at 220v when heating strike water (through the rims), then switch it to 110v when recirculating the mash. I have had a stuck mash twice, when I didn't properly allow the grain bed to set and wasn't using rice hulls, but that's a non issue now that I have learned better how to operate the system. Neither time did I scorch the wort, I have kill switches in place so as soon as it started I was able to kill power.
 
When you use the RIMS system where do you place the temp sensor for the most effective control over the element?
I can see using the RIMS tube with 110V could help with not over heating the wort but i imagine the placement of the sensor is critical too?

My frustration with the HERMS is that it is slow to respond. It seems like I spend very little time at my target mash temp. I'm either too low or too high for much of the time. Maybe if the recirculation was faster...?

Also several people have mentioned "properly setting the grain bed" can you explain the procedure you use to "set the bed"? I have been using a HERMS system up to now and it seems that the recirculation (especially at the end of the mash) is slow even when I use rice hulls.
 
I think most people set the grain bed by opening their recirc valve just a tad bit, just enough to start getting some flow, for some length of time before possibly opening it up further.


One thing I've noticed with RIMS on recirc re: stuck mashes is generally when starting the recirculation, it seems like there's always still some particulate matter. I've had two batches stick on me and one was seemingly due to this. The other, I had the bottom of a bag of chocolate malt and had a lot of shake/dust. I've since read some people use a BIAB bag along with their false bottom and that seems to help out.


One thing I saw in researching before building my RIMS is the people that had problems with scorching were usually putting the element to hard work either step-mashing or doing a mash out. I had contemplated step-mashing but in the end, especially with 120, ended up being satisfied with the benefits of holding uniform temp + recirc. Your mileage may vary, do your own reading, etc.
 
And I think the standard configuration is generally RIMS tube in port = element, RIMS tube out port = temp probe. I'm sure there's variations on this though.
 
I use this rims kit, works great, easy to clean:

https://www.brewhardware.com/product_p/rims.htm

When I set the bed, I usually mean that I Mix up the mash, then let it settle without any pump draw or recirculation for a few mins, like 5. I'm toying with the idea of using a grain bag with my false bottom in the future to help keep the initial chunks out of my pump since I only use one of the small dc pumps and the inlet of that has gotten clogged up halfway before (there is a cross right before the propeller that catches grains sometimes).
 
augiedoggy said:
I used herms and rims and the rims is much quicker and capable of real step mashing but herms is more foolproof....
Click to expand...

Exactly. I have to keep a closer eye on mine but it's got to be faster. Now if all your doing is single step mashes, HERMS is the safest way to go.
 
Sounds like the consensus is split and a person just needs to decide what kind of temperature response is needed for their recipes.

The mash PID in my control box is just monitoring mash temp right now and not controlling anything...so I could add a relay and have it control a RIMs element and have a redundantly/elaborate/versatile/wasteful system (pick your favorite descriptor)... If a guy wanted to get CrAzY!!

But I don't know any homebrewers that fit that description
 
I use a pwm speed controller to adjust the speed of the pump when setting the grainbed. (I use small 3 gallon per minute dc pumps) I also use a secondary finer filter under my false bottom (stainless braided line) which prevents things from clogging.... a herms setup is just as likely to have a stuck sparge it just wont have possible damaging results.
I am actually just testing my latest revised rims tube... It might have been easier to just buy the kit on amazon when it was all said and done since this rims setup cost me about $90 to build with the 1,000 watt cartridge element I decided to use. It raises the temps of three gallons of water about 2 degrees per minute. I'm still looking for a longer element but this one is 15" long so the watt density is ok. I also installed a camlock at the end so I can pull it apart for cleaning easily.

IMG_20141126_101400_498.jpg
 
atoughram said:
How many watts in the RIMS tube?
Click to expand...
I mentioned it above but you must have missed it...1,000w in a 15" element, I tried a 10" 1,000 element at first and had no scorching except at a dead narrow space that lacked any flow in the wort on my old rims tube and I tried a 17 1/2 750w element in this new setup which works but was noticable slower than the 1,000w element... I am looking for a cheap 21-26" 1,000-1,200 watt element which I feel will perform the best for this setup. the cartridge heaters can be bought very cheap and are super easy to keep clean. not to mwention they allow for the use of smaller piping.
 
Thank you for all your opinions. It gives me food for thought. I will keep you posted on the additions to the brewery. I can certainly see both sides of the coin but haven't decided just what to do for my self. I wish I had a little experience with a RIMs system. Oh well, just more excuses to geek out over the brew system.

I'm certainly interested to see the photos of how you all heat your mash recirculation.
 
I went with HERMS simply because I don't need another thing to worry about on brew day (scorching my wort in the rims tube).
 
I had planned on RIMS for a long time until I actually started drawing out all the details of what I wanted. I came across all the negatives listed here. In the end, I wanted a very simple, elegant solution with only 2 vessels and 1 element. (I thought this was pretty clever until I heard of Brutus 20!)

With a RIMS tube, you will always need at least 1 more element to go fully electric. In my case, the HLT/BK is home to the only element in the brewery.

The HERMS coil is mounted to the lid, so when I'm done with the mash, I just pull out the coil, drain the waste (well, cleaning) water, and pump the mash into the HLT-now-BK.

After the boil, I put the lid/coil back in and pump ice water through the coil as it doubles as an immersion chiller.

An added bonus -- a much simpler control panel as well. Just 1 RTD temp probe, 1 PID, 1 SSR, 1 element contactor, etc. It's as simple as you can get without going BIAB, but maintaining the benefit of absolutely crystal clear wort.
 
Hey Atoughram we need to get together and brew together sometime. Your in Puyallup and i'm right next door in Spanaway. Pretty similar setups too. Sorry to thread jack op :mug:
 
I went HERMS and now would like to go RIMS. I don't like needing to clean the coil out, especially since I'll use my HLT as my boil kettle for smaller 5gal batches (10gal batches are boiled with a heat stick directly in my conical). That means I'm flushing the coil out while bringing my wort to a boil - counterproductive since it cools it while heating. I'd prefer the flexibility of the mash being a fully independent vessel/system.

GotPushrods coil in the lid would resolve my complaint perfectly though. I also use the coil as a chiller when using the HLT as a BK.

No complaints on the performance of the HERMS though. If I wasn't too lazy to bother, I'd put my current setup for sale and start again now that I know better what I want.
 
Wacki said:
I decided to go with a rims tube, for me it really boiled down to not wanting my wort flowing through a coil that I could never disassemble and visually see how clean it was. I just don't trust only running oxy clean or pbw through it...

I run a 6000w lwd density element at 220v when heating strike water (through the rims), then switch it to 110v when recirculating the mash. I have had a stuck mash twice, when I didn't properly allow the grain bed to set and wasn't using rice hulls, but that's a non issue now that I have learned better how to operate the system. Neither time did I scorch the wort, I have kill switches in place so as soon as it started I was able to kill power.
Click to expand...
https://www.brewhardware.com/product_p/rims.htm
This is a great website! The RIMS tube they offer uses tri clamps on both sides so the RIMS tube can be taken apart and cleaned. No more not being able to see the inside of the RIMS tube!
 
Loodachris said:
Hey Atoughram we need to get together and brew together sometime. Your in Puyallup and i'm right next door in Spanaway. Pretty similar setups too. Sorry to thread jack op :mug:
Click to expand...

Hey Chris!

For sure! I'm not too far from Woodland and 144th, you might be closer than you think!

Now back to regularly scheduled programming....
 
augiedoggy said:
I mentioned it above but you must have missed it...1,000w in a 15" element, I tried a 10" 1,000 element at first and had no scorching except at a dead narrow space that lacked any flow in the wort on my old rims tube and I tried a 17 1/2 750w element in this new setup which works but was noticable slower than the 1,000w element... I am looking for a cheap 21-26" 1,000-1,200 watt element which I feel will perform the best for this setup. the cartridge heaters can be bought very cheap and are super easy to keep clean. not to mwention they allow for the use of smaller piping.
Click to expand...


You may look for a 21-26" 5500w 240v element and run it at 120v. It may be easier to find.


Sent from my iPhone using Home Brew
 
I have brewed on a MoreBeer 2100 HERMS and a Blichmann Tower of Power direct-fired propane RIMS system. Of the two, I much prefer the RIMS because the temperature is much more stable even with much smaller batch sizes.
 
Assuming they are both set up correctly stability should not be different between the two methods.

Some more options to ponder are:
A) Full size HLT but use CFC instead of permanently mounted coil
-PRO's: can use smaller HLT for slight increase in ramping rate, prevent scorching

B) Have a separate vessel (or RIMS tube) for heating water to use in CFC
-PRO's: prevent scorching while having high ramping rate
 
I built a HERMS because it was easy to add the coil to the HLT. I generally fill my BK with sparge water, and fill the HLT with my strike water. Once I dough in, I pump my heated sparge water to my HLT. I recirculate both the water and wort. It does filter the wort clear and maintain temps. I also use it raise to mash out temps. I have a 50' x 1/2" stainless coil. It is slow as molasses. I generally do 12-15 gallon batches. There just is no way to do any real step mashes IMO with the HERMS coil. It is too slow, where the RIMS is much faster. If I were building from scratch, I would be building a RIMS tube with tri fittings. I would have to taste the difference for me to build either the next time. I'm more into the simple, single infusion gig now. I use the HERMS because I have it, not sure I'm making better beer because of it.
 
Question for all the folks using RIMS tubes.

I see some only use elements at 120V and I assume some use 240V. If a person used a 240V element wouldn't the PID and sensor control the heat to prevent scorching?

Is there a way to conveniently switch from 120V to 240V? I have a system similar to The Electric Brewery design.

I'm sure this question has been asked before but I couldn't find a good thread on it.

Thank you in advance for your advice.
 
Depends on The element. I have a 240 25" long 1000w, element which is less than 29watts per sq inch density... my rims uses a cartridge heater.
 
Big-H said:
If a person used a 240V element wouldn't the PID and sensor control the heat to prevent scorching?
Click to expand...

Yes - It should....

BUT

If you have a long RIMS tube, a short element, and the sensor in opposite of the element with some room between them, in a low flow situation, the element can cook the mash before the sensor sees it.

In your design, make sure that your element and the sensor are as close as possible so that the system reacts quickly.
 

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