Rice Lager

[Rob2010SS]

Hey all. Doing a rice Lager coming up as a test batch. Never done one. When building the recipe, I’m looking to use 8lbs of Jasmine Rice. It seems to me that this would be dry, uncooked weight. However, I started thinking about it and figured it would just be safer to check.

So, when using rice in recipe building software, is the weight dry and uncooked?

I do understand that we either have to do a cereal mash on the rice or cook it ahead of time, in case that comes up.

 

[hottpeper13]

I do it as dry weight at 20% ,so i use 8 lbs of pils malt and 2 lbs of rice. I use pils because it has the highest DP.
Remember that rice gelatinazation happens at 189*. I soak the rice overnite in the same amount of brewing liquor as if I were cooking it to eat. In the morning I heat it to 189,insulate and 20 min later it looks like cooked rice with a little free board. Put in ice to bring it to 143* when the pils is added. in 30 min it will have more free board but be cloudy,heat while stirring to 160-162,rest for 30 min, you won't see anything that resembles a grain of rice and it will be clear and like soup. Once it comes to a boil I put the cover on and lower the flame to a mild boil,and stir every 10 min. I boil for 30min while the main mash is at 143,I add the cereal mash to get to 160,you know the rest.

 

[Rob2010SS]

So you’re doing the cereal mash right? It could just be cooked ahead of time, correct? Or am I misunderstanding something?

 

[Lampy]

To add my own question: does the rice contribute a lot of sediment? I had that experience with wheat flour.

 

[Bill Tong]

I use 20-25% rice in dry weight. The flaked rice in BeerSmith is pretty accurate for recipe design for me.

I run the rice through my mill to break it up then I cook the rice like normal (no salt of course) using my brewing water (i.e. no chloramines). No cereal mash. Let it cool down to around mash temp ( i add some of my cool brewing water) then add to the mash. Jasmine rice gets very clumpy, be sure to break it all up.

I do full volume mashing and I usually subtract about half the volume of water i used to cook the rice plus the water used to cool the rice down, from the mash volume, otherwise the preboil volume will overshoot. Either way you just have to check your preboil and either boil a bit longer or add water depending on if you are over or under.

 

[Jeroen79]

What benefit do you except from adding rice?, i only once drank some chinese rice beer and it was horrible.

 

[Rob2010SS]

What benefit do you except from adding rice?, i only once drank some chinese rice beer and it was horrible.

Honestly, not really expecting a benefit. We haven’t done one with rice and we want to try it. We’re doing an 80s themed murder mystery party at our house and we wanted to make a beer for that. When googling what beers were popular in that time frame, we saw that was the emergence of Bud Light (not that either of us LIKE bud light..). But we thought we’d try a light, crispy lager that is hopped with Barbe Rouge hops that is extremely light and drinkable.

 

[hottpeper13]

I use them for getting to know new noble hop varieties. I want a very pale but malty taste,currently consuming a Kasbeck 6% abv and don't enjoy it as much as I thought I would since it is claimed to be a super sazz.

 

[AlexKay]

My go-to adjunct for light, crisp lager is refined sugar.

Following that, there's flaked rice, where the extra cost would be worth it to me, to avoid the cereal mash.

To me, jasmine rice tastes like ... jasmine. Which I suppose could work in a beer, though it doesn't seem like it would play nicely with Barbe Rouge.

 

[IslandLizard]

Following that, there's flaked rice, where the extra cost would be worth it to me, to avoid the cereal mash.

I've never used flaked rice, only whole rice, and yes, with a full cereal mash.

But I've used flaked corn. I noticed getting much better efficiency from the flaked corn when either pre-boiling it in my full volume strike water for 30-45', or by cereal mashing it.
I therefore have an inkling that flaked rice and flaked corn are not as "thoroughly" pre-gelatinized, as rolled/flaked cereals are. Allegedly. Even those "flaked" (rolled) cereals, I'm not 100% convinced they are either, except maybe for their "instant" varieties.

 

[AlexKay]

I've never used flaked rice, only whole rice, and yes, with a full cereal mash.

But I've used flaked corn. I noticed getting much better efficiency from the flaked corn when either pre-boiling it in my full volume strike water for 30-45', or by cereal mashing it.
I therefore have an inkling that flaked rice and flaked corn are not as "thoroughly" pre-gelatinized, as rolled/flaked cereals are. Allegedly. Even those "flaked" (rolled) cereals, I'm not 100% convinced they are either, except maybe for their "instant" varieties.

There was a Master Brewer's Podcast episode (maybe this one?) about not-sufficiently-gelatinized adjuncts, so you are not alone in your inkling.

 

[IslandLizard]

There was a Master Brewer's Podcast episode (maybe this one?) about not-sufficiently-gelatinized adjuncts, so you are not alone in your inkling.

Thanks for the link! Listening to it now...
Kevin Davey mentions the conversion issues they encountered using flaked rice, starting at 13:12.
He also mentions they've used flaked rice from different manufacturers giving different results with the cereal mash conversion.

 

[Bramling Cross]

I've never used flaked rice, only whole rice, and yes, with a full cereal mash.

But I've used flaked corn. I noticed getting much better efficiency from the flaked corn when either pre-boiling it in my full volume strike water for 30-45', or by cereal mashing it.
I therefore have an inkling that flaked rice and flaked corn are not as "thoroughly" pre-gelatinized, as rolled/flaked cereals are. Allegedly. Even those "flaked" (rolled) cereals, I'm not 100% convinced they are either, except maybe for their "instant" varieties.

Lizard knows his stuff and you should listen to him, nevertheless...

I agree, but I attack the problem with a different tool, I prefer to use a very extended step mash. For me, I'd rather step mash and wait a long time rather than work up a sweat stirring, and stirring, and stirring, and stirring. Then madly adding cool water or boiling water, all the while stirring madly, to hit your sac step. Different strokes. I prefer to save up my stirring arm for my once-every-five-years descent into decoction madness.

I've used both methods and I prefer to simply clear the day and run a very long step mash program. Either will work, though. I'm not knocking the cereal mash! It has made excellent beers for centuries! To my mind, it's a pick your poison sorta thing. I have the equipment and time to run a 120min+ step mash.

Honestly, I find that I prefer my cereal mashed and decoctioned beers, but not because they're better. I like them because I worked my butt off to make them.

In a perfect world, I'd convert a very large ice cream maker into an automated cereal masher.

Lastly, the dude said he wants to use 8lbs of Jasmine rice without mentioning that he's running a 1 barrel rig... Please, someone, stop him! That's sake, not beer, and it isn't going to make anything good mashed at 153F for 60 and pitched at 68F with a packet of US56.

 

[Rob2010SS]

Lizard knows his stuff and you should listen to him, nevertheless...

I agree, but I attack the problem with a different tool, I prefer to use a very extended step mash. For me, I'd rather step mash and wait a long time rather than work up a sweat stirring, and stirring, and stirring, and stirring. Then madly adding cool water or boiling water, all the while stirring madly, to hit your sac step. Different strokes. I prefer to save up my stirring arm for my once-every-five-years descent into decoction madness.

I've used both methods and I prefer to simply clear the day and run a very long step mash program. Either will work, though. I'm not knocking the cereal mash! It has made excellent beers for centuries! To my mind, it's a pick your poison sorta thing. I have the equipment and time to run a 120min+ step mash.

Honestly, I find that I prefer my cereal mashed and decoctioned beers, but not because they're better. I like them because I worked my butt off to make them.

In a perfect world, I'd convert a very large ice cream maker into an automated cereal masher.

Lastly, the dude said he wants to use 8lbs of Jasmine rice without mentioning that he's running a 1 barrel rig... Please, someone, stop him! That's sake, not beer, and it isn't going to make anything good mashed at 153F for 60 and pitched at 68F with a packet of US56.

So I’m curious. Why does a 30% addition of rice constitute a sake?

And where did I say that I was mashing at 153 and pitching at 68?

 

[Brooothru]

Lizard knows his stuff and you should listen to him, nevertheless...

I agree, but I attack the problem with a different tool, I prefer to use a very extended step mash. For me, I'd rather step mash and wait a long time rather than work up a sweat stirring, and stirring, and stirring, and stirring. Then madly adding cool water or boiling water, all the while stirring madly, to hit your sac step. Different strokes. I prefer to save up my stirring arm for my once-every-five-years descent into decoction madness.

I've used both methods and I prefer to simply clear the day and run a very long step mash program. Either will work, though. I'm not knocking the cereal mash! It has made excellent beers for centuries! To my mind, it's a pick your poison sorta thing. I have the equipment and time to run a 120min+ step mash.

Honestly, I find that I prefer my cereal mashed and decoctioned beers, but not because they're better. I like them because I worked my butt off to make them.

In a perfect world, I'd convert a very large ice cream maker into an automated cereal masher.

Lastly, the dude said he wants to use 8lbs of Jasmine rice without mentioning that he's running a 1 barrel rig... Please, someone, stop him! That's sake, not beer, and it isn't going to make anything good mashed at 153F for 60 and pitched at 68F with a packet of US56.

By “very long step mash”, how long are you talking?

I always do a Hoch-Kurz mash on all my beers (automated, in an all-in-one setup) that takes around 1:45 hrs. to run. I don’t use a lot of adjunct flaked grains, but when I do it seldom results in low conversion, and my mash efficiency never falls below about 81%.

 

[Dland]

I've used flaked rice up to 20% mash with no preparation except to run though grain mill w barley malt. Result is a somewhat lighter bodied beer but with no drop in ABV.

I've got a rice brewing question also; Has anyone brewed with a significant % of brown rice? If brown rice is older I know it has oils that can age and make flavor not as good. Anyone know to what extent it would affect brew made from it? I have about 35#s of organic long grain rice that is about 3 years old, and wondering if it is worth trying to brew something with it.

 

[mashdar]

You didn't specify volume, %, or the rest of the grain bill. 5 gallons is a default assumption, and 8lbs would be a lot. He was worried you were making an 80% rice beer.

Are you making a 15-20 gallon batch? Sounds like you're using ~27lbs of grain?

 

[mashdar]

I have about 35#s of organic long grain rice that is about 3 years old, and wondering if it is worth trying to brew something with it.

Did you store it airtight with o2 absorbers? If stored prepper style it might be OK, but otherwise 3 years is pretty long for brown rice.

If you cook some and it tastes good, I guess it's worth a shot? IMO I don't think grain oil content is a big deal if the grain is in good condition. 35lbs at 20% bill is a lot of beer, though!

I've never brewed with brown rice, but I imagine it would give a nutty/bran-y flavor, possibly a bit astringent. Might be interesting in a dry stout? Or a "dry brown" if you want it to stand out? edit: Looking around, it may be a pretty subtle flavor? Maybe a brown rice lager?

 

[Miraculix]

I use rice all the time, I like an Asahi type lager. I've experimented with the rice and I get the best results from using normal white rice (no need to crush it) washing it very well, then cooking it until it is very claggy. It adds a lovely crisp mouth feel.

Thanks for the info, I wasn't sure about the crushing part. I'm intending to do exactly that for an English cream ale. MO, 20% rice, Golding's and Nottingham. Should be good!

 

[Brooothru]

Thanks for the info, I wasn't sure about the crushing part. I'm intending to do exactly that for an English cream ale. MO, 20% rice, Golding's and Nottingham. Should be good!

That does sound good.

And speaking of ‘good’, I owe you a debt of gratitude for the recipe you posted for British Golden Ale. It’s one of six I’m entering in an upcoming competition. It’s my favorite of the lot. High hopes for this one. I’ll let you know next month how it performed.

 

[IslandLizard]

I wasn't sure about the crushing part.

Crushing rice in a homebrew grade grain mill could actually damage it. Rice is crazy hard!
I ran a pound through my Monster Mill (MM2) when I first got it to remove any machining oils, shavings, etc. The sound it made was scary, yet, the mill survived. I won't ever do that again.

Cooking the rice will soften it, use ample water. The longer it's kept wet (several hours, or overnight) the mushier it gets. That's what you want. You can then do a cereal mash with it (best, highest efficiency, a little more work) or use the (thinnish) rice mush directly as your strike water.

 

[day_trippr]

^Good advice^ that applies to corn as well.
Don't murder your mill!

Cheers!

 

[Rob2010SS]

You didn't specify volume, %, or the rest of the grain bill. 5 gallons is a default assumption, and 8lbs would be a lot. He was worried you were making an 80% rice beer.

Are you making a 15-20 gallon batch? Sounds like you're using ~27lbs of grain?

My mistake. Guess I should have posted that.

This was an 18 gal batch, finished boil volume. Ended up cooking the 8lbs of rice the night before and added it right to the mash. Never made Jasmine rice before. That was shticky!

Pretty happy with numbers and color. We’ll see how she does.

 

[IslandLizard]

Ended up cooking the 8lbs of rice the night before and added it right to the mash. Never made Jasmine rice before. That was shticky!

Next time use much more water for cooking the cereal.

You want to end up with a thin rice (or corn) cereal soup, nothing that even resembles rice pudding (or polenta). That thin "soup" will constitute your strike water, or at least most of it.

 

[Rob2010SS]

Next time use much more water for cooking the cereal.

You want to end up with a thin rice (or corn) cereal soup, nothing that even resembles rice pudding (or polenta). That thin "soup" will constitute your strike water, or at least most of it.

Interesting. Are you saying that what I did shouldn’t have worked? Or just that method gives a better result?

 

[IslandLizard]

Interesting. Are you saying that what I did shouldn’t have worked? Or just that method gives a better result?

Perhaps even better results.
It was probably fine what you did, given the pre-cooking followed by the overnight "soak."

As you know, the rice needs to be fully (thoroughly) gelatinized (hydrated) for the enzymes to be able to convert all the available starches during the mash.
The boil followed by the (extended) overnight hot soak likely took care of that, as long as there was enough water to hydrate/gelatinize all the way through to the very center of the kernels. IOW, I'd like to see no more whole kernels, just a thin starchy soup as your strike "water."

 

[Rob2010SS]

We’ll have to try that next time. Everything I’d read said you could simply cook the rice and add it to the mash so that’s what we did.

Efficiency on this ran high for us. We’ve been running around 82% but this one came in at 88%.

 

[IslandLizard]

We’ll have to try that next time. Everything I’d read said you could simply cook the rice and add it to the mash so that’s what we did.

Efficiency on this ran high for us. We’ve been running around 82% but this one came in at 88%.

Well, with that kind of efficiency (88%) there's very little to improve upon.

 

[Rob2010SS]

Well, with that kind of efficiency (88%) there's very little to improve upon.

Meh, what I don’t know is did we just KILL it on getting the sugars out of the Pilsner and Munich with little contribution from the rice, or did the rice work just fine? Unsure how to know…

 

[IslandLizard]

Meh, what I don’t know is did we just KILL it on getting the sugars out of the Pilsner and Munich with little contribution from the rice, or did the rice work just fine? Unsure how to know…

With rice making up 30% of the grist, it certainly contributed a large portion to your extract total or you wouldn't be looking at a mash efficiency of 88%.

 

[Rob2010SS]

With rice making up 30% of the grist, it certainly contributed a large portion to your extract total or you wouldn't be looking at a mash efficiency of 88%.

This is why I like this forum! Great point!!

 

[fljim]

Honestly, not really expecting a benefit. We haven’t done one with rice and we want to try it. We’re doing an 80s themed murder mystery party at our house and we wanted to make a beer for that. When googling what beers were popular in that time frame, we saw that was the emergence of Bud Light (not that either of us LIKE bud light..). But we thought we’d try a light, crispy lager that is hopped with Barbe Rouge hops that is extremely light and drinkable.

You know, I don't believe that Bud uses actual rice. It's my understanding they use rice syrup.

Also, I noted that someone said they use "refined sugar". You should never use refined sugar in brewing unless you want any "bonus flavors" that come with it. Refined sugar (table sugar) is a highly processed sugar with little concern for purity. If you use any sugar, you should use corn sugar. It's readily available at any homebrew shop and it's extremely easy to dissolve. I've used that in all my light beers. They come out clean, crisp and no added off-flavors...

 

[huckdavidson]

You know, I don't believe that Bud uses actual rice. It's my understanding they use rice syrup.

Also, I noted that someone said they use "refined sugar". You should never use refined sugar in brewing unless you want any "bonus flavors" that come with it. Refined sugar (table sugar) is a highly processed sugar with little concern for purity. If you use any sugar, you should use corn sugar. It's readily available at any homebrew shop and it's extremely easy to dissolve. I've used that in all my light beers. They come out clean, crisp and no added off-flavors...

What contaminants are present in "cane sugar" or "beet sugar" that cause off-flavors?

 

[fljim]

All these processed table sugars have by-products and it all depends on the brand that you choose. You will often hear homebrewers complaining of a cidery taste. You don't want any of these by-products in your beer so why not just choose pure corn sugar? I realize it's not quite as easy as going down to the local supermarket but it's at every home brew store.

 

[huckdavidson]

All these processed table sugars have by-products and it all depends on the brand that you choose.

From:

https://www.crystalsugar.com/sugar/how-we-make-sugar/

The sugar crystals are separated from the beet molasses syrup in a large, high-speed spinning drum or centrifuge. These crystals are now 99.9 percent pure white sugar.

Cidery taste comes from a yeast by-product called acetyldehyde which when fermentation occurs at proper temperatures and times is converted to alcohol by the yeast. Less than optimal fermentation or exposure to oxygen will cause these compounds to remain.

Table sugar is a perfectly fine product to use and has zero off flavors. It is the responsibility of the brewer to ensure that proper fermentation and post fermentation product handling procedures are followed - to avoid off flavors.

 

[mashdar]

FWIW "corn sugar" is much farther from corn than cane sugar is from sugar cane.

edit: If you really want to get worried, read about adulterated turmeric.

 

[Stikius]

Next time use much more water for cooking the cereal.

You want to end up with a thin rice (or corn) cereal soup, nothing that even resembles rice pudding (or polenta). That thin "soup" will constitute your strike water, or at least most of it.

This makes me curious and I wonder if I understand you correct. Let's say that I want to use 80% Pilsner and 20% rice. Then I could fill up my mash water in the kettle the evening before, cook the rice in it (for x minutes?), and let it cool overnight. The next morning I bring it back to mash temperature and go in with the pilsner malt as I would do on any other brewday? Sorry if I totally misunderstood though...

 

[Miraculix]

This makes me curious and I wonder if I understand you correct. Let's say that I want to use 80% Pilsner and 20% rice. Then I could fill up my mash water in the kettle the evening before, cook the rice in it (for x minutes?), and let it cool overnight. The next morning I bring it back to mash temperature and go in with the pilsner malt as I would do on any other brewday? Sorry if I totally misunderstood though...

Yes. Or you use it hot and add cold water till you got the desired temperature to save the energy.