Reverse osmosis

[Nate]

Being on a public water system, the water can vary quite a bit. It's also typically pretty heavily chlorinated so we've always filtered our brew water. We've used a couple different filters which also produce different water profiles. Any home brewers here using RO and then manually building their water profile for consistency? My understanding is you still need to charcoal filter prior to RO to remove the chlorine (can damage the RO membrane?).

Looks like some of the RO units are pretty reasonably priced. I think a lot of home brewers don't realize what a huge contributor your water is to your final product. I was thinking it might be worth it to be able to tailor your water profile to any specific beer plus produce consistent results... I know some of the commercial breweries also do this.

 

[NeoBrew]

I've got one from http://www.freedrinkingwater.com/

It's really affordable. I originally bought it for drinking water, but it has served me well for brew water as well. I have the 45 gallon a day model. I'm thinking about changing to the 90 gallon a day membrane when mind is ready for replacement. I do have to plan ahead to collect about 9 gallons for a BIAB 5 gallon batch brew day. It's been almost 10 years now and I'm on my first membrane. My TDS meter says it's still doing it's job.

I'm really new to doing the water adjustments though. So far things have been working out, but my adjustments have been 50% guess at best. But like all things brewing. It's another thing to become an expert at.

I've also been thinking about sending my RO water to Ward labs to see what is really coming out of it. The Bru'n Water spreadsheet suggests there is still some stuff left in RO water. It would be nice to know for sure.

 

[Yooper]

I bought mine from bulkreefsupply.com. It was $119. It works great, and I've used it for two years now and it hasn't needed a filter change or anything yet.

 

[Setesh]

I bought mine from bulkreefsupply.com. It was $119. It works great, and I've used it for two years now and it hasn't needed a filter change or anything yet.

Did you have the resulting water tested by Ward? If so and you were happy with the results, would you mind telling how many stages or what model it is? I've been shopping/reading reviews the last few days and the options are dizzying. I'm not sure how much is hype and how much is necessary when it comes to the stages. I just checked out bulkreefsupply.com and the prices are great, and they have clear housings which I would have thought was a no brainer for all systems.

Edit:
I almost forgot! Do you use a storage tank or just put the output into your HLT and wait? I thought about rigging a float switch on my HLT and using that on the output from the RO system. I could turn it on the day before and have the water I needed ready and waiting in the morning. Just a thought, I have no experience with these systems at all.

 

[DrunkleJon]

I just started thinking about getting an RO system this week. I was thinking of making the same exact thread as this. Wow. Eerie.

 

[Yooper]

Did you have the resulting water tested by Ward? If so and you were happy with the results, would you mind telling how many stages or what model it is? I've been shopping/reading reviews the last few days and the options are dizzying. I'm not sure how much is hype and how much is necessary when it comes to the stages. I just checked out bulkreefsupply.com and the prices are great, and they have clear housings which I would have thought was a no brainer for all systems.

Edit:
I almost forgot! Do you use a storage tank or just put the output into your HLT and wait? I thought about rigging a float switch on my HLT and using that on the output from the RO system. I could turn it on the day before and have the water I needed ready and waiting in the morning. Just a thought, I have no experience with these systems at all.

I haven't had it tested. I bought an aquarium kit that measures kH and GH, and that's been fine. It's always been under 17 ppm (the "one drop" measurement minimum) and the beer has been great.

I just put the output into my HLT. I have a auto shutoff version, but I never did put the float valve on so I just run it when I'm home and can keep an eye on out. If I'm close, but going to be busy, I run it into a bucket and then fill the HLT, so that it doesn't overflow.

Mine is rated at 75 gpd, and I can fill the HLT in about 4-5 hours. I got one very similar to this one (I don't see mine on the page, but a phone call can get exactly the same one): http://www.bulkreefsupply.com/brs-4-stage-value-ro-di-system-75gpd.html Mine had an auto stop (you'd use it for the float switch) instead of the d/I option.

 

[Nate]

I just started thinking about getting an RO system this week. I was thinking of making the same exact thread as this. Wow. Eerie.

I'd take it as a sign that you're supposed to get one...

 

[Hermit]

If your water is heavily chlorinated as you say there are other things to consider. I upgraded mine recently and realized there are some things that no one ever takes into consideration.

First, if you have heavily chlorinated water, get dual carbon filters on the input.

Second, and this is what always seems to get overlooked, is the draw rate of the water through the carbon filters. My reading suggests that the water must be in contact with the carbon filters for 6 minutes. 28 MINUTES FOR CHLOROMINE! I've seen it suggested that the 6 minutes comes out to a flow rate of about 1 quart per minute for a single stage. If you go tankless you can easily check the flow rate your system is capable of. If your tank has a shutoff valve you can shut it off to check your flow rate. If your system makes less than a quart a minute you are probably good. I just keep a one gallon jug sitting on the counter and fill it a quart at a time and let the system rest. I figure I'll be good to go by brew day.

The bottom line here is to make sure you don't draw faster than your carbon filters can remove the chlorine/chloromine.

Most of this information comes from one place and I haven't found other sources yet so don't take this as gospel. I'd appreciate more information if people have it. I was going to hook up my old and new tanks together but I'm not sure drawing that much water at one time is a good idea.

 

[Hermit]

I asked AJ about this since I had been thinking about bringing it up in the science forum. He suggested that chlorine test kits are cheap enough at the pet supply places and you could just test the condensed (waste) water from the system for chlorine. Add another carbon filter ahead of the system if you must.

It seems to me this might be a good way to tell when the filters need changed too.

 

[GCPHomebrew]

I use RO from my home. I originally used the RO from the store(you know the refill 5gal thing). Just Ke sure to add salts. Cacl for sure. Gypsum adds to the hop flavor.


Sent from my iPhone using Home Brew

 

[Setesh]

My reading suggests that the water must be in contact with the carbon filters for 6 minutes. 28 MINUTES FOR CHLOROMINE! .......
The bottom line here is to make sure you don't draw faster than your carbon filters can remove the chlorine/chloromine.

Wow, if it has to stay in contact with one filter for 28 minutes that is an absolutely minuscule flow rate. It seems like it would be better to just add a campden tab to your resulting water.

This system claims to handle chloromines, and our city uses a lot of chloramines in their water, especially in the summer. Now I just need to figure out what kind of flow rate we are talking about. Is the 75 gallons per day on this system the flow rate or is that the maximum amount of water you can run through it and get the rated amount of months out of the cartridges? 75GPD is only .21 quarts per minute, or 3.12 gallons per hour. At that rate I would need to run it for 4-5 hours to get enough brewing water.

 

[Hermit]

I have a 50 GPD system and with the valve to the tank turned off does well more that a cup a minute. AJ said if he had to deal with chloramines he might consider a carbon filter with a t for testing ahead of the system.

I don't know how much the standard filter housing holds and you have to subtract the filter from that amount. I could turn my tank off later today and see how much my system puts out. But then again, the flow rate of 1 qt per minute was a general figure thrown out by someone and I don't know what, if any particular system, it based on.

I keep 1 gallon jugs by the sink and just draw about a quart every now and then. I'm sure my two standard housings hold more than a quart each so I should be safe. But in the end, do the calculations you need but follow AJ's advice and get a test kit to verify you aren't getting that up to your membrane. As I said before, it is probably a good way to test when your carbon filter capacity is used up too.

 

[Yooper]

Wow, if it has to stay in contact with one filter for 28 minutes that is an absolutely minuscule flow rate. It seems like it would be better to just add a campden tab to your resulting water.

This system claims to handle chloromines, and our city uses a lot of chloramines in their water, especially in the summer. Now I just need to figure out what kind of flow rate we are talking about. Is the 75 gallons per day on this system the flow rate or is that the maximum amount of water you can run through it and get the rated amount of months out of the cartridges? 75GPD is only .21 quarts per minute, or 3.12 gallons per hour. At that rate I would need to run it for 4-5 hours to get enough brewing water.

Yep, I run mine for most of the day to get 14.5 gallons for brewing on the day (or two) prior to brewing.

 

[Hermit]

Every time I hit "edit" my system just sits and 'thinks' so I'll just throw this out as another post. Even if the 1 quart per minute is accurate I don't know if the chlorine/chloramine removal is the same over the life of the filter. My guess is that the removal rate slows down with age/saturation. Again, all points to testing.

 

[BBL_Brewer]

For those of you that want a down and dirty on RO systems, check out the article section.

I've got a 4 stage unit. 10 micron sediment filter > 2 micron carbon block > 1 micron sediment filter > RO membrane. I stopped using the carbon post filter because I don't use the water for drinking and it gets generated as needed for brewing so it never sits around long enough to pick up tastes/odors from the tank. At a minimum, you should replace your carbon blocks routinely. They are rated for number of gallons of RO water generated and vary quite a bit. The better ones are a little more expensive. You need to know how many gallons they are rated for and keep track so you know when to replace them. If you don't, you'll reduce the lifespan of your membrane and they are pretty expensive in comparison. The sediment filters are pretty easy. Just replace them when they start to look dirty or every 6 months. If you're not generating much water, just use good judgement. I have to replace my first sediment filter pretty often because I get a lot of rust debris from my distribution lines.

 

[SpeedYellow]

How do you justify a $200-$300 RO system over $0.89 /gal for distilled water at Target? Plus with RO there is LOTS of waste water, filter replacements, not to mention needing 5 hours to fill your brew pots. I've kicked this around but just can't justify it, at least based solely for brewing purposes.

 

[Setesh]

I found this link very informative. The waste water generated seems to be a major sticking point for a lot of people. Can this water not be captured and used to water plants? Is it so high in solutes that it would damage plants?

 

[BBL_Brewer]

How do you justify a $200-$300 RO system over $0.89 /gal for distilled water at Target? Plus with RO there is LOTS of waste water, filter replacements, not to mention needing 5 hours to fill your brew pots. I've kicked this around but just can't justify it, at least based solely for brewing purposes.

It just all depends on your situation. You can generate RO water for a lot less than 89 cents per gallon. At least I can. I guess if you're from a region where water is scarce and expensive, then it might be better to buy. I got my RO unit off ebay for $120. I pay about 3 cents per gallon for municipal water. With a 4:1 rejection rate for the RO, that's 15 cents per gallon of RO water. So, once I generate and use 162 gallons of water I just payed for the RO unit with money I saved vs buying distilled for 89 cents. From then on out, cost savings outweighs filter replacement significantly.

 

[Setesh]

It just all depends on your situation. You can generate RO water for a lot less than 89 cents per gallon. At least I can. I guess if you're from a region where water is scarce and expensive, then it might be better to buy. I got my RO unit off ebay for $120. I pay about 3 cents per gallon for municipal water. With a 4:1 rejection rate for the RO, that's 15 cents per gallon of RO water. So, once I generate and use 162 gallons of water I just payed for the RO unit with money I saved vs buying distilled for 89 cents. From then on out, cost savings outweighs filter replacement significantly.

Agreed. Even if you buy a lower efficiency system you will still end up paying for the unit within 20 batches when compared to distilled water. There is also a lot to be said for not driving all over to get distilled water, and not having the empty plastic containers as waste. For some reason, where I live there isn't a lot of distilled water to be had. I've had to go to three stores before to get enough for 1 batch (15 gallons). If you only brew 1 batch of extract beer every month then I can understand not wanting to deal with an RO system, but for an AG brewer that does a couple of batches a month or more, an RO system is going to pay for itself relatively quickly.

They have the RO dispensers at the stores in my area, but these have been known to be out of spec rather badly. You really don't know how well they have been maintained and what the TDS of the water coming out of them is. I would much rather own/control the system myself.

 

[Yooper]

How do you justify a $200-$300 RO system over $0.89 /gal for distilled water at Target? Plus with RO there is LOTS of waste water, filter replacements, not to mention needing 5 hours to fill your brew pots. I've kicked this around but just can't justify it, at least based solely for brewing purposes.

It just all depends on your situation. You can generate RO water for a lot less than 89 cents per gallon. At least I can. I guess if you're from a region where water is scarce and expensive, then it might be better to buy. I got my RO unit off ebay for $120. I pay about 3 cents per gallon for municipal water. With a 4:1 rejection rate for the RO, that's 15 cents per gallon of RO water. So, once I generate and use 162 gallons of water I just payed for the RO unit with money I saved vs buying distilled for 89 cents. From then on out, cost savings outweighs filter replacement significantly.

Agreed! Also, hauling home three five gallon jugs on brewdays sucked! I brew ten gallon batches and generally use fifteen gallons of water. It's cheap ($1.75 for two gallons) but heavy and cumbersome for me. Fifteen gallons of water weighs almost as much as me!

 

[Hermit]

Agreed! Also, hauling home three five gallon jugs on brewdays sucked! I brew ten gallon batches and generally use fifteen gallons of water. It's cheap ($1.75 for two gallons) but heavy and cumbersome for me. Fifteen gallons of water weighs almost as much as me!

Last time I say you it was your son doing the heavy lifting. He wise up?

 

[Setesh]

Has anyone considered capturing the waste water and using it to water flower beds or the lawn? I'm thinking about putting a Y on the waste water line. If it is a nice day (not raining or in winter) I can attach a line to this Y and run it to the flower beds/trees to water them. Otherwise I'll switch the Y to the sink drain position. You could always run it into a 55 gallon bin and use it later as well.

 

[Hermit]

Has anyone considered capturing the waste water and using it to water flower beds or the lawn? I'm thinking about putting a Y on the waste water line. If it is a nice day (not raining or in winter) I can attach a line to this Y and run it to the flower beds/trees to water them. Otherwise I'll switch the Y to the sink drain position. You could always run it into a 55 gallon bin and use it later as well.

Mine goes into a barrel in the basement. I use it for all sorts of things.

 

[Yooper]

Last time I say you it was your son doing the heavy lifting. He wise up?

Worse! He grew up and then he moved away! I no longer have free grunt labor.

The first waste water run off goes directly into my washing machine. The rest goes for watering my plants and things, or down the drain.