Request for Induction Equipment Information

[laserghost]

There's been a lot of questions like "is this pot induction ready?" and a lot of vagueness. Due to a new apartment I just purchased an induction burner (Duxtop 9100MC 1800w) and the Concord S4242 60-quart pot on Amazon. I also have a 2000w heatstick and do full BIAB ~ 6 gal batches. We'll see what happens, and I'll report back to this thread.

I have no idea if this combination is going to work out, or if the kettle is even "induction ready". There's been a lot of questions about the Concord and then no one replies because they may not have the info. There is one review on Amazon for the kettle I purchased that says it's "OK for induction", so we'll see.

My understanding is that if it's "induction capable/ready" then it will work and heat up and produce the maximum output. If it's not ready then it simply won't work, as opposed to working sort of, at a lower output. Is that correct?

 

[Weezy]

My understanding is that if it's "induction capable/ready" then it will work and heat up and produce the maximum output. If it's not ready then it simply won't work, as opposed to working sort of, at a lower output. Is that correct?

If the manufacturer is saying its induction ready, then yes. If random poster who never tested any pot but that o e on their induction cooker, then take that with a grain of salt. Just because a pot does heat up doesn't mean its what you want. It may only be heating at 60% efficiency or something. A truly induction manufacturer recommended pot is going to work at a high efficiency.

 

[laserghost]

Okay so you're saying it's not an "it works or it doesn't" scenario. Interesting. I'll be sure to reply with the results of the new equipment.


Sent from my iPhone using Home Brew

 

[laserghost]

I did a test today with a brand new Concord 60 quart SS kettle. Amazon says it's 18/8 stainless, which seems like it's not induction material. Sure enough, a magnet did not stick to the bottom. However, I put it on the Duxtop 9100MC 1800 watt induction burner and it didn't give the error code for "incompatible cookware". Instead, it started heating up the water. I filled it a little more than half way to ~ 8 gal of 70 degree water and dropped in a 2000 watt heatstick. Kept the lid on cracked as I monitored the rise in temp.

Took about 30 minutes to get to 150 and then another hour or so to get up to 205–206 where it maxed out. The surface was moving in a gentle roll, but I am not convinced at this combo. I quickly wrapped about 5 layers of reflectix around the kettle (though it could have been a tighter wrap) and that didn't seem to boost the temp.

At my previous apartment I had a 50 quart aluminum kettle that fit perfectly on two gas burners, but still needed the heatstick to boil, but then it would rage. At the new place I've got a glass top electric range that seems less than ideal, though I haven't really tried it yet.

Now I'm trying to figure out what to try next. My typical pre boil volume is around 8 gallons, but with a 60 quart kettle I was hoping to do bigger batches, though I can't even boil 8 gal. I could add a another heatstick. Am also wondering if a narrower/taller kettle would be better, like the 15 gal Tallboy from NB. The Concord is 17" wide x 16" tall and the Tallboy is 15.5" x 18.5", it also might have a magnetic bottom. Any other ideas?

 

[IslandLizard]

I did a test today with a brand new Concord 60 quart SS kettle. Amazon says it's 18/8 stainless, which seems like it's not induction material. Sure enough, a magnet did not stick to the bottom. However, I put it on the Duxtop 9100MC 1800 watt induction burner and it didn't give the error code for "incompatible cookware". Instead, it started heating up the water. I filled it a little more than half way to ~ 8 gal of 70 degree water and dropped in a 2000 watt heatstick. Kept the lid on cracked as I monitored the rise in temp.

Took about 30 minutes to get to 150 and then another hour or so to get up to 205–206 where it maxed out. The surface was moving in a gentle roll, but I am not convinced at this combo. I quickly wrapped about 5 layers of reflectix around the kettle (though it could have been a tighter wrap) and that didn't seem to boost the temp.

At my previous apartment I had a 50 quart aluminum kettle that fit perfectly on two gas burners, but still needed the heatstick to boil, but then it would rage. At the new place I've got a glass top electric range that seems less than ideal, though I haven't really tried it yet.

Now I'm trying to figure out what to try next. My typical pre boil volume is around 8 gallons, but with a 60 quart kettle I was hoping to do bigger batches, though I can't even boil 8 gal. I could add a another heatstick. Am also wondering if a narrower/taller kettle would be better, like the 15 gal Tallboy from NB. The Concord is 17" wide x 16" tall and the Tallboy is 15.5" x 18.5", it also might have a magnetic bottom. Any other ideas?

Although it looks like you're putting 3800W into the kettle, you may not get the full 1800W from the induction. As Weezy said, transfer maybe only 60% or less. I get a full rolling boil on my IC3500 with an 8 gallon induction-ready tri-ply bottomed kettle, and once boiling, have to reduce to 2500-2700W to prevent splashing.

But I had a hard time getting a good boil with a 13 gallon batch in a similar 15 gallon tri-clad induction kettle. Insulation only helped marginally, but keeping the lid partially on saved the day. No DMS, but I also didn't use Pilsner malt, mostly wheat and 2-row.

Induction energy transfer is "easy" to measure with the right equipment, such as a clamp-on amp meter on a phase lead in the breaker box. Gotta get one of those...

I doubt a taller, skinnier kettle will make all that much difference. Sure you'll gain induction efficiency with an induction-ready kettle, but that maybe only 800W. Still not nearly enough to boil 13 gallons, if that's your goal.

The problem you see with the temp not rising above 206°F is that although the bottom part of the wort is boiling, the energy and convection is not enough to heat the top wort to boiling temps. Most of that has to do with energy loss, and keeping the lid on part way will help immensely. Your boil off may be somewhat reduced too, but not that much.

So I'd say, get another 2000W heat stick, run on a separate circuit (heavy duty extension cord). Or mount an electric element in your current kettle. ULWD would be best. You can feed a 240W element with 2 120V connections from 2 separate circuits as long as they use different phases, i.e., the breakers would be on opposite sides. Or from a 240V/30A dryer outlet, or the outlet of your range.

 

[IslandLizard]

This has been a very helpful thread. Thanks to all who contributed.

I had similar results with past using a 3.5-3.75 Gal SS Pot.
DUXTOP 1800-Watt Portable Induction Cooktop Countertop Burner 8100MC
$60 from Amazon this past April

Did a few small batches and was very pleased with numbers...
Initial 3.5 Gal @ 110F, #10 setting
+11'30" = 140F
+3'30" = 150F
+6'30" = 170F (21'30" to mash target)

Was frustrated with idea of purchasing another pot and did some experimentation with loose SS hardware on bottom of one of my pots (about 1/2 dozen big screws) that is not induction ware. I supported the pot with some wood scraps and elevated the cook top with a cutting board so there was just shy of 1 cm or 1/2 inch between the cook top and bottom of the pot.... it worked pretty well... not a robust boil but I augmented with a heatstick, which gave a very robust boil.
Just figured I pass it on for others to consider.

Somehow I overlooked your post, just stumbled upon it. Are you using those bolts, nuts, and washers as induction receivers inside your kettle? How is the energy transfer? You're quite a bit away from the coil. Could you stick an 8" magnetic SS plate on the bottom instead?

On a side note, that is a very narrow edge that pot is supported on, the slightest bump will drop it onto your glass induction plate.

 

[Saint George]

Somehow I overlooked your post, just stumbled upon it. Are you using those bolts, nuts, and washers as induction receivers inside your kettle? How is the energy transfer? You're quite a bit away from the coil. Could you stick an 8" magnetic SS plate on the bottom instead?

On a side note, that is a very narrow edge that pot is supported on, the slightest bump will drop it onto your glass induction plate.

IslandLizzard, Thanks for your feedback.
I posted a follow-up reporting inconsistent results and issues with the induction plate sounding an error alarm and shutting off. I would reposition and get another 5 minutes of activity then another alarm.... Very frustrating because I had no such issues when I reported my original post. The 8" SS plate is the next step in the plan... I suspect something more uniform in size and shape may better accommodate the magnetic fields.
On a side note I built-up the support around the kettle to get 3 sides of support with some aluminum reinforcements

 

[IslandLizard]

IslandLizzard, Thanks for your feedback.
I posted a follow-up reporting inconsistent results and issues with the induction plate sounding an error alarm and shutting off. I would reposition and get another 5 minutes of activity then another alarm.... Very frustrating because I had no such issues when I reported my original post. The 8" SS plate is the next step in the plan... I suspect something more uniform in size and shape may better accommodate the magnetic fields.
On a side note I built-up the support around the kettle to get 3 sides of support with some aluminum reinforcements

Ah, I see it, few posts down. My guess is the inductors are a bit far from the coil. Bringing the burner closer to the bottom of the pot should help. The shape (geometry) of the inductor is somewhat important as the induction currents need to "shorten" to create heat. A 1/8" thick magnetic SS plate should do it. It doesn't need to be round.

The IC3500 has no problem carrying a 15 gallon pot full of wort, it just can't boil it by itself. It has a sturdy SS frame, 16 gauge I reckon, which wraps around the top, functioning as a spacer, so the kettle rests on that instead of the glass plate. I don't think the weight on the glass is as much an issue as immense local pressure because of surface imperfections, sand, grit, etc.

When I use non-enameled, "raw" cast iron (a wok) on my IC3500, I use a 1/16" silicone spacer to prevent the irregular cast iron surface from scratching or cracking the glass. That works, but 1/4"-1/2" space is too much, it beeps for non-detection.

 

[laserghost]

Okay, I've finally got my new system up and running and am posting some initial test results. Here is the equipment I'm using and some data:

kettle: 15 gal Tall Boy wrapped with 4 layers of Reflectix insulation (actually holds 15.5 gal liquid with the lid on, and to the brim is about 16 gal) – has a magnetic clad bottom

induction burner: Avantco 3500

supplemental: 2000 watt heatstick

I filled the kettle with 14 gal of water at about 92 degrees and turned on the AV3500 along with the heatstick, and put the lid on partially covering the kettle. The temperature climbed 20 degrees every 10 minutes, consistently all the way up to boiling, where I removed the lid. When it was boiling, it was raging and I could turn the AV3500 down to a lower power along with the heatstick.

It took 30 minutes to climb from 92 to 158 and another 30 to get it boiling. While boiling I unplugged the heatstick and the AV3500 kept a very low boil going at maximum power. While this may not be desirable for most brews, it could be desirable for something like an Altbier where you may want to decrease your boil off. The surface was moving and rolling, but very slightly.

Along with the heatstick I'll be able to pull off double batches now.

 

[AnOldUR]

Like AnOldUR said, I seriously doubt anything larger (i.e. 12 gallons) can be brought to a rolling boil on one IC3500.

I was wrong. Messed up volumes and got close to 14 gallons to the kettle. No supplemental heat source. No problem.

ref: 62qt Bayou / Avantco 3500

 

[AfroHopster]

I was wrong. Messed up volumes and got close to 14 gallons to the kettle. No supplemental heat source. No problem.

ref: 62qt Bayou / Avantco 3500

so the Bayou tri clad is the way to go? I just brought 2 Avantco 3500's and I need some pots was looking at bru-gear, SS brew tech now I will price a Bayou see the difference would like to get 3 pots for under 500. If I can't do that I'm going to get 2 and use my igloo for mashing and continue to fly sparge.

 

[laserghost]

this thread is not up to date.

 

[geoffm33]

OK, it's been a long time coming, but I updated the OP with more info from the thread. It's getting a little disorganized so not sure if moving it to the wiki may make more sense?

 

[sumbrewindude]

Finally got my pot in, hope to run some tests tonight for the small batch crew.

INITIAL DATA:

• Induction Burner: AVANTCO 1800W
• Model # of Kettle: CONCORD 26Qt Tall
• Batch Size: 3GAL

Using 3gal starting volume, non-insulated kettle, lid on to boil, settings as marked:
Setting 15 (Max)
Time/Temp
0 min / 72.2F
15min / 111F
30min / 156F
45min / 197F
52min / 212F

Minimal boil off, rolling surface boil, setting #13, 210F.
Minimal boil off, fast rolling surface boil setting #14, 211F.

• Heats 3GAL gals to mash temps in 33 mins (160F strike)
• Heats 3GAL from mash (175F) to boil (212F) in 15 mins

Still seeing what my boil off is so I can perform a full volume boil for 3gal, and then I'll post new numbers with insulation.

Just updating these numbers based on my current brewing volumes with a 3gal batch -

With 1 wrap of Reflectix, using the Concord pot -

2.5gal mash volume 90F -160F is ~20min, highest setting
2.0gal sparge volume 90F - 175F is ~15min, highest setting
4gal total volume 170F to 212F/ vigorous boil is 18min, highest setting

Boil off is 1gal/hr

Total volume attemped to boil - 5.25gal, which it did with a smooth rolling boil, ran out of comfortable room in pot.

Love the system.

 

[Brugear]

Great thread and one we'd like to point our customers to as we're always being asked about whihc plates and frankly the community has the best knowledge on this. We sell induction kettles, however, aside from adding the entire Bru Gear range of kettles (10, 15, 20 and 30 gallon) to the list of available high quality induction and electric element ready kettles that's the selling over

We're fans of induction bruing and I noticed there was some commentary on weight bearing issues. Here's the thing with induction, the kettles doesn't have to sit on the plate, all the plate manufacturers have recommendations for distance from the plate to the kettle, we've seen up to 1.5" recommended, however, the commercial induction plates we've tested with at 100 gallon batches we're around 1/4" gap. What this means is you can form a frame to support the weight of the kettle and provide stability and still achieve the field required to achieve heating.

Lastly, I'd be interested to see if anyone has implemented induction into an automated brewery, where temperature control is handled outside of the turn knob on the plates.

Cheers and happy Bruing !

Phil

 

[kal]

Lastly, I'd be interested to see if anyone has implemented induction into an automated brewery, where temperature control is handled outside of the turn knob on the plates.

Certainly possible, essentially just using them as a heating element for those that don't want to install a heating element, assuming you can find an induction cooktop that has the wattage you need.

The caveat is that most induction cooktops will have to hacked to make this work as you want them to come on automatically at 100% when power is first applied (ie: when they're first plugged in). For obvious safety reasons, this is not how these burners work, nor will there ever be one with that sort of option.

All of the models in the original post of this thread are off when you first plug them in. You have to hit the "ON/OFF" button to turn them on and then turn the power up to 100%. So if power goes out, you need to again re-press the "ON/OFF" button and then turn the power back up.

So if driven by an external source like an electric brewing control panel, they would be unusable as is as the control panel would be cutting and applying power to the burner as often as every second or two. You'd have to manully turn them on every 2 seconds. The cheap on/off dimpled membrane buttons that most of these inexpensive cooktops use would wear out after a couple of brew sessions, not to mention nobody wants to sit there pressing buttons every 2 seconds for 1+ hours.

Hacking one would probably be pretty straight forward however for anyone with electronics experience, assuming you can get one open, trace things out, and then back together again.

Kal

 

[bferullo]

I use the following:

• Induction Burner: AVANTCO 1800W
• Model # of Kettle: NB 10 gallon MegaPot with 3 layers Reflectix wrapping
• Batch Size: 3.5 GAL

My strike water reaches 170 degrees in about 45 minutes, from faucet temperature of about 70 degrees.

After sparge collection, the wort reaches a boil in about 35 minutes. I leave the lid partially on, held in place by binder clips. I end up getting a nice boil, although there is a stronger boil in the center of the pot.

I haven't had any off flavor issues due to using the lid to partially cover teh pot during boil.

This is a great basement setup. When I can get the electrical run, I plan on upgrading to the 3500 watt burner.

 

[Weezy]

I believe the commercial induction cookers have some level of programmed control via ICs on the PCB. A reprogram would be necessary to hack them. The coils do not work by a simple on-off switch triggered by the knob etc. Iirc, power is sent to them via a wave signal. I hadn't read up on this in years so the details are fuzzy....but I was satisfied at the time that a spliced wire hack was off the table.

That being said, I am working on a hack that I will post about, whether it succeeds or fails. I have the parts just not the time right now.

 

[Early8]

Subscribed. I have been motivated to explore induction brewing only this year, I have been at it otherwise for about 20... Never mind the details, but I have a Bosch range, NIC5665uc, which I love. It's about a year old. I am exploring doing 7 gallon boils on the range. My concern about weight of the filled kettle led me to check with the manufacturer regarding weight limits for the range. I was told 200lbs. So now it's onto a kettle... I am aiming for a cold season indoor BIAB full volume setup. I am about to pull the trigger on a 10 gallon Mega Pot. I will be using an immersion chiller and a racking can. I will post my experiences. Thanks for creating this repository for induction brewing experiences, it's definitely needed.

 

[IslandLizard]

Subscribed. I have been motivated to explore induction brewing only this year, I have been at it otherwise for about 20... Never mind the details, but I have a Bosch range, NIC5665uc, which I love. It's about a year old. I am exploring doing 7 gallon boils on the range. My concern about weight of the filled kettle led me to check with the manufacturer regarding weight limits for the range. I was told 200lbs. So now it's onto a kettle... I am aiming for a cold season indoor BIAB full volume setup. I am about to pull the trigger on a 10 gallon Mega Pot. I will be using an immersion chiller and a racking can. I will post my experiences. Thanks for creating this repository for induction brewing experiences, it's definitely needed.

I used to put my 8 gallon triple ply kettle on my Samsung glass top stove (radiant heat, not induction), but the large 13" triple element could not give me a good rolling boil at 7 gallons unless I kept the lid on partially. I could hear the element cycling on and off and of course that's what was limiting the output. When they were in the on state, the boil was great, not so when off.

The boil off was still about a gallon per hour, so that was good. I also had 3 layers of large bubble wrap around it. It all worked fine this way for many brews, but the sheer weight of the full pot on that stove really worried me. I made sure the top was cleaned and grit free and the same for the bottom of the pot. Once put on and filled, I never moved it. And kept a continuous hawk eye on boilovers and splashes, with only 1.5" of headspace. With that in mind, I often split the boil between 2 pots, 6 gallons on the triple and a gallon and a half on the double coil.

Your induction stove won't get as hot, so you won't have the burn/pitting issue, but there is still a lot of weight, and possible scratching if you're not careful. 200# capacity sounds great, and there's some reserve, but that's with even pressure applied on the whole top probably. How about local pressure?

I tried to find your stove but Google only shows this thread. One single return! that's a first.

I get a decent boil with 7 gallons on my IC3500, with insulation, but I'm almost sure I don't get the full 3500W output. These triple ply bottoms are great to prevent scorching and give a better, more spread out heating surface than single ply, but I have the feeling some efficiency is lost. I guess I'm in the market for a clamp meter to be able to check that. Hmm, not a bad price. 400A too.

I guess you need to know how much energy your largest coil can deliver. 3500W sounds about the minimum you need. More is better.

There is more info on induction in the IC3500 thread.

 

[Early8]

My mistake on the model number, apologies. I have the Bosch NIT5665UC. The 11 inch burner in the middle is capable of 4.4 KW, which should make short work of 7 gallons. I replaced a cracked Dacor infrared cooktop with this one about a year ago. I generally have managed to sneak few brew days in outside in January and February, but this year seems to have been more challenging for me. That is why am exploring.

I share the weight fear. I was told that there are some people out there canning with this range who have asked the same question. 200lbs is more than twice what I would put on the burner.

 

[Weezy]

I get a decent boil with 7 gallons on my IC3500, with insulation, but I'm almost sure I don't get the full 3500W output. These triple ply bottoms are great to prevent scorching and give a better, more spread out heating surface than single ply, but I have the feeling some efficiency is lost.

I 110% agree with this. I think the thick plating of the base wastes a lot of energy. I think the induction EM field isn't directly heating the top/inside bottom of the pot. I think the energy must radiate through the lower layers to the top and to the wort (via thermal conduction, which experiences energy loss at it spreads heat towards the wort). I'd like to run a test with cast iron, thin stainless pot, and triclad and time the difference. Someday.

 

[kal]

Not to change the subject, but thick clad bottoms on a boil kettle do not help stop scorching because scorching with wort doesn't happen as it's not thick.

This is why Blichmann and some other manufacturers do not have a thick clad bottom. There's no point. We're not making spaghetti sauce.

Kal

 

[AnOldUR]

We're not making spaghetti sauce.

Have you brewed with a large percentage of rye lately?

 

[Early8]

FWIW, I am cooking mostly with the Cuisinart MCP line, which is Tri ply, and I really like the heat distribution on the pots. I find it hard to believe that there is a loss, other than to say that there is residual energy lost when finished a chore. Certainly metering it would be a worthwhile project, but I don't have the tool do it, yet. I think that comparing induction to a flame based heat source only counts in the final product. I have a Blichman burner and kettle that I use regularly and find that hot spotting is different because the heat spills out beneath the fire and up the sides. An induction burner doesn't produce this same sort of behavior. The induction burner applies heat directly; the energy applied only moves because of a conductor of the energy, or the heat itself. A flame travels with convection of a different sort. I wish I were an engineer so that I could be more concise and factual. I am only reporting my hypothesis here....

 

[Early8]

I am going to brew with a 10 gallon mega pot 1.2. I am aiming for a full volume BIAB with about 5.75 gallons ending volume in the kettle. Stay tuned.

 

[Early8]

View attachment ImageUploadedByHome Brew1424111536.040166.jpg

Here is a 10 gallon Mega Pot 1.2 sitting on the 36 inch Bosch NIT5665UC. With 6 US gallons @ 49F degrees. No lid. Set on Boost, 4400 watts from a dual ring 11 inch burner. It seems that boost times out and the burner drops to 9 every 10 minutes or so. I select boost again and it goes for another cycle.

70 @ 5 minutes
91 @ 10 mins
110 @ 15 mins
127 @ 20 mins
143 @ 25 mins
160 @ 30 mins
178 @ 35 mins put lid on cocked because of steam (fan would change results more)
192 @ 40 mins
207 @ 45
212 @ 48

By 50 minutes the boil was more than I would brew with. It looks like 8.0 with the lid cocked is about right for me. Ventilation is going to be my primary challenge I think.

 

[Early8]

Well the test boil was such a success, and I had pot full of hot water which had cooled, so I dropped a bag of grains in.... I brewed a classic special bitter. I did not insulated the pot and experimented with the lowest heat setting of 1.0 and it lost a few degrees. I was pleasantly surprised how low the burner would go. This system is going to work very well I think. The only challenge I have is condensate around the stove, but that should be manageable with some creative thinking. This is a very relaxing way to brew indoors, which is the only way on a day like today in the mid Atlantic. And I forgot how quickly I can chill a single batch with the immersion chiller, being that I usually brew doubles.

 

[Weezy]

I got my induction hack working:

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f170/induction-hack-add-external-probe-518213/

I modified the thermistor on an IC1800 to get it into a thermowell in the pot. The temp settings are usable and reliable now.

(fixed the link, thanks fellas)

 

[botigol]

I got my induction hack working:
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f170/induction-hack-add-external-probe-518213/

I modified the thermistor on an IC1800 to get it into a thermowell in the pot. The temp settings are usable and reliable now.

Weezy, I fixed the link for you.