Removing stout flavor in extract brewing?

[ronclark]

Hey all,

I appreciate any opinions I can get on this matter.

I am about to start a stout.

I have the Coopers DIY hopped stout extract.

I was planning to use it with 1 kg of Brew Enhancer 2 (dextrose and maltodextrin) and 1 can of Coopers dark malt extract as the fermentables.

Before I start this journey, I was wondering if some of the long time brewers might tell me if this would remove the stout flavor with the added dark malt extract or simply be a recipe for disaster.

Sorry. I don't know if this is a noobish question, but I would like some opinions before I dive into it.

Beyond the initial fermentation, I plan to rack into a secondary with about 4-6 ounces of cocoa nibs and have considered adding some banana extract to a few bottles when bottling and possibly doing another racking of a gallon or so with a small amount of strong coffee added. Too much?

Anyway, thanks for reading through my chaotic post and any help you might give me.

 

[HelperMunkee]

Consider steeping .5lbs of chocolate malt and maybe other dark crystal. I'd be a little concerned that the added dextrose is gonna thin out the mouth feel.

 

[Dynachrome]

Hmmm,

You have a lot going here. The board usually suggests that I go try Brewtarget software.

Are you trying to clone a specific brand or just trotting off into the unknown?

I have had two brewing buddies tell me they made beer they didn't care to drink.

One of those batches however, my wife and I liked quite a bit.

 

[Ogri]

Is it this Can of HME that you have??

Have one of the same sitting on a shelf waiting for a primary to free up.

My impression is that adding the dark malt would compliment the depth of colour and roasty flavours of the Irish Stout HME, maybe even making the stout flavour a little too intense, but I could be very wrong.

I'd have thought that this 3.75lb can HME, a 3.3lb can of dark Malt Extract and a kilo of the Brew enhancer 2 would turn into a pretty decent 6 (US) gallon brew, although I've never used the Coopers brew enhancer 2 in any of my brews so far. Dextrose/maltodextrose is supposed to result in better mouthfeel and flavour, isn't it? Being around, or less than, 30% of the total grain bill your 1Kg of enhancer 2 shouldn't be detrimental.

If you used a kilogram of the standard Coopers "dextrose only" enhancer it would attenuate so well/fully that THAT might lead to a thinner bodied, drier, end result.

Anyway, the instruction booklet that came with my HME "suggests" adding 500grs of light Dry Malt Extract and 300gr dextrose/sugar so you can imagine that with the amounts mentioned above it'd be a pretty strong, very rich, brew.

I plugged in the quantities to QBrew and this is what I got:

Recipe Ron Clark's stout Style Irish Stout
Brewer Ron Clark Batch 6.00 gal
Extract


Recipe Characteristics Recipe Gravity 1.059 OG Estimated FG 1.015 FG
Recipe Bitterness 19 IBU Alcohol by Volume 5.7%
Recipe Color 28‹ SRM Alcohol by Weight 4.5%


Ingredients Quantity Grain Type Use
2.20 lb MrB. Booster Sugar Other
3.30 lb Coopers LME - Dark Extract Extract
3.75 lb Muntons Connoisseurs HME - Export Stout Extract Extract
Quantity Hop Type Time
1.00 oz Muntons Connoisseurs HME - Export Stout Pellet 5 minutes
Quantity Misc Notes


Note that the HME used for the example was Muntons (there was no Coopers stout option on Qbrew) and the enhancer 2 was substituted with Mr. Beer Booster (I think they're essentially the same thing)

Compared to the standard recipes for Irish stouts the table was showing that your quantities above would yield a beer with colour and bittering slightly lower than the standard minimums.

Standard Colour; Min-30, Max-40, yours-28
Standard IBUs; Min-25, Max-38, yours-19

If you reduced it to a 5 (US) gallon sized batch the same grain bill yields a recipe OG of 1.071, Estimated F.G of 1.018, ABV of 6.9%, colour of 31, bitterness of 21. According to the Qbrew calculator I'm using.

 

[ronclark]

Consider steeping .5lbs of chocolate malt and maybe other dark crystal. I'd be a little concerned that the added dextrose is gonna thin out the mouth feel.

Any suggestions for good places to order chocolate malt for recipes that won't kill me in shipping costs?

Hmmm,

You have a lot going here. The board usually suggests that I go try Brewtarget software.

Are you trying to clone a specific brand or just trotting off into the unknown?

I have had two brewing buddies tell me they made beer they didn't care to drink.

One of those batches however, my wife and I liked quite a bit.

I am looking into the unknown a bit. I have sampled chocolate/banana cappuccinos and loved them. I have also had a number of porters and stouts flavored with coffee and/or chocolate, which I also enjoyed.

I figured I might split the batch a bit after the primary to avoid having 5 gallons of something difficult to put down.

Is it this Can of HME that you have??

Have one of the same sitting on a shelf waiting for a primary to free up.

My impression is that adding the dark malt would compliment the depth of colour and roasty flavours of the Irish Stout HME, maybe even making the stout flavour a little too intense, but I could be very wrong.

I'd have thought that this 3.75lb can HME, a 3.3lb can of dark Malt Extract and a kilo of the Brew enhancer 2 would turn into a pretty decent 6 (US) gallon brew, although I've never used the Coopers brew enhancer 2 in any of my brews so far. Dextrose/maltodextrose is supposed to result in better mouthfeel and flavour, isn't it? Being around, or less than, 30% of the total grain bill your 1Kg of enhancer 2 shouldn't be detrimental.

If you used a kilogram of the standard Coopers "dextrose only" enhancer it would attenuate so well/fully that THAT might lead to a thinner bodied, drier, end result.

Anyway, the instruction booklet that came with my HME "suggests" adding 500grs of light Dry Malt Extract and 300gr dextrose/sugar so you can imagine that with the amounts mentioned above it'd be a pretty strong, very rich, brew.

I plugged in the quantities to QBrew and this is what I got:

Recipe Ron Clark's stout Style Irish Stout
Brewer Ron Clark Batch 6.00 gal
Extract


Recipe Characteristics Recipe Gravity 1.059 OG Estimated FG 1.015 FG
Recipe Bitterness 19 IBU Alcohol by Volume 5.7%
Recipe Color 28‹ SRM Alcohol by Weight 4.5%


Ingredients Quantity Grain Type Use
2.20 lb MrB. Booster Sugar Other
3.30 lb Coopers LME - Dark Extract Extract
3.75 lb Muntons Connoisseurs HME - Export Stout Extract Extract
Quantity Hop Type Time
1.00 oz Muntons Connoisseurs HME - Export Stout Pellet 5 minutes
Quantity Misc Notes


Note that the HME used for the example was Muntons (there was no Coopers stout option on Qbrew) and the enhancer 2 was substituted with Mr. Beer Booster (I think they're essentially the same thing)

Compared to the standard recipes for Irish stouts the table was showing that your quantities above would yield a beer with colour and bittering slightly lower than the standard minimums.

Standard Colour; Min-30, Max-40, yours-28
Standard IBUs; Min-25, Max-38, yours-19

If you reduced it to a 5 (US) gallon sized batch the same grain bill yields a recipe OG of 1.071, Estimated F.G of 1.018, ABV of 6.9%, colour of 31, bitterness of 21. According to the Qbrew calculator I'm using.

That is a serious amount of leg work and I thank you for that. Wow. I do have a good bit to learn and am definitely glad I got into this hobby after the internet was big.

I actually have the standard stout and not the Irish from Coopers: Coopers Beer Kits > Stout Beer Making Kits

I have only used Brew Enhancer 1 so far myself. Although that is the one that comes with the package, I thought I might try it with Brew Enhancer 2 because Coopers recommends it for a stouter stout.

I will fish around a bit more and look into this all for a couple more days until I have a free fermenter. Thanks to all of you for your opinions and thoughts.

 

[ploppythesausage]

I did a similar recipe as you a while ago: one can Coopers stout (not the irish one), 1kg dark DME and 1kg brewing sugar. Reduced the batch size to 18litres from 23l. Added cold steeped coffee, cocoa and naga chillies in the boil.
Left in primary for 2 weeks, now been in the bottle for 3. The taste is intense. Definitely needs more time for everything to come together - one mouthfull may be smooth coffee while another will be harsh yeast or stout roastiness. Coming along nicely so far though.

 

[ronclark]

I did a similar recipe as you a while ago: one can Coopers stout (not the irish one), 1kg dark DME and 1kg brewing sugar. Reduced the batch size to 18litres from 23l. Added cold steeped coffee, cocoa and naga chillies in the boil.
Left in primary for 2 weeks, now been in the bottle for 3. The taste is intense. Definitely needs more time for everything to come together - one mouthfull may be smooth coffee while another will be harsh yeast or stout roastiness. Coming along nicely so far though.

Do you think the flavors of the coffee and chocolate would be more pronounced if added to a secondary as opposed to the primary? Or are they two of the flavors that can withstand the fermentation process?

I'm not sure I'm prepped to attempt naga chillies at this point. Not in a 5 gallon batch anyway. However, I did sample an excellent chipotle cider this summer that had a great afterbite to it so that might not be bad at all.

 

[ploppythesausage]

Do you think the flavors of the coffee and chocolate would be more pronounced if added to a secondary as opposed to the primary? Or are they two of the flavors that can withstand the fermentation process?

I imagine they would be more pronounced in secondary but I only primary (most of the time). The cocoa i put in the boil to dissolve it.

The coffee I cold-steeped with the intention of adding it to the fermenter but I added it late in the boil anyway (just in case there were any sanitary issues i didn't want to ruin a batch of beer). That may have made it slightly more bitter but I don't know. That said, one of my favourite breweries is Mikkeller who I read brew coffee for their beers almost as much as they brew beer so I guess they don't cold-steep and don't worry about imparting coffee-bitterness to their beers.

As for the nagas, at the moment there is a definite bite and tingliness afterwards but the flavour of them is yet to mingle entirely with the beer. (It tasted delicious after a Stone Ruination IPA but that may say more about the palate-destructing abilities of Ruination than my beer).

 

[gr8shandini]

Any suggestions for good places to order chocolate malt for recipes that won't kill me in shipping costs?
. . . .

I don't know how close you are to Annapolis, but Annapolis Home Brew is an awesome shop. They'll have all the malts you'll need and a friendly staff that'll be glad to answer any questions you might have.

As for your other questions, my only advice is not to overdo it on the additions. More than anything, a stout should be a balanced beer. Even 1 drop of banana extract is probably too much for a single bottle. I'd wait until you've bottled the "normal" version and when you have about a six pack's worth left, add the extract to taste starting with maybe 2 drops in the bottling bucket.

Finally, I'm completely unfamiliar with the "brew enhancer," but if you want the full, creamy mouthfeel of a true stout, you might want to consider a mini-mash with some 2 row, the chocolate malt, and flaked barley. It's not nearly as hard as a lot of people think and it'll really take a stout to the next level over an all-extract version.

 

[ronclark]

I don't know how close you are to Annapolis, but Annapolis Home Brew is an awesome shop. They'll have all the malts you'll need and a friendly staff that'll be glad to answer any questions you might have.

As for your other questions, my only advice is not to overdo it on the additions. More than anything, a stout should be a balanced beer. Even 1 drop of banana extract is probably too much for a single bottle. I'd wait until you've bottled the "normal" version and when you have about a six pack's worth left, add the extract to taste starting with maybe 2 drops in the bottling bucket.

Finally, I'm completely unfamiliar with the "brew enhancer," but if you want the full, creamy mouthfeel of a true stout, you might want to consider a mini-mash with some 2 row, the chocolate malt, and flaked barley. It's not nearly as hard as a lot of people think and it'll really take a stout to the next level over an all-extract version.

I've been to Annapolis Homebrew. Great shop and they were very helpful. I will definitely be going there again in the future.

I will take your advice and try the flavoring on a smaller amount when I bottle.

I plan to move into some more advanced brewing in the near future. I am simply getting my feet wet at the moment, but I don't think that extract alone will keep me entertained for long.

Thanks for the input.

 

[ronclark]

I went with the following:

-Coopers Stout Kit
-1 Can of Coopers Dark Malt Extract
-750g Brew Enhancer 2
-250g mix of Light and Dark Brown Sugar
-Wyeast 3068 Weihenstephan Yeast

I backed off a bit from the original plan.

The fermentation is massive. I thought it would be a bit less, but this looks similar to the Russian Imperial Stout fermentation I have seen images of.

When I initially received this fermentation bucket from Northern Brewer, I contacted them with my concern that the lid was not getting sealed. They told me that it was not a problem during fermentation because the CO2 would keep the baddies out of the brew.

On an afterthought, I put duct tape around the lid to ensure it remained in place and I am glad that I did. When I came down to let the dog out this morning, the krausen had filled the remaining 1 1/2 gallons of space and bubbled out under the lid and tape.

So, that's the story so far. I'll keep my fingers crossed for a solid brew out of this once it's all said and done.

 

[Ogri]

Looking forward to hearing your results with this brew

Why did you decide to use the enhancer 1 instead of the enhancer2? Are you aiming for a drier, Irish type stout?

The enhancer 2 is a mix of maltose, dextrose and maltotriose, I believe, so it is not fully fermentable. That would have given a little more body, flavour and mouthfeel to your end product than enhancer 1, which, being only dextrose, will ferment fully and, supposedly, tend to thin out the body a bit giving a drier finish. Liked the touch with the light and dark brown sugars as they will leave behind a hint of molasses after they ferment, albeit very subtle due to there being only 250gr used.

I take it you went for a 5 gallon batch?

Anyway, congratulations on the brew and keep us posted

 

[ronclark]

Looking forward to hearing your results with this brew

Why did you decide to use the enhancer 1 instead of the enhancer2? Are you aiming for a drier, Irish type stout?

Liked the touch with the light and dark brown sugars as they will leave behind a hint of molasses after they ferment, albeit very subtle due to there being only 250gr used.

I take it you went for a 5 gallon batch?

Anyway, congratulations on the brew and keep us posted

I actually screwed up my post and did use Brew Enhancer 2. I will go back and edit that. I was reading this and then checked all the recipes I had glanced at prior to putting it together and found myself wondering why I would change the enhancer as well. I had to check my project notes.

I did do a 5 gallon batch with this.

 

[Ogri]

Good to hear that you did actually opt for the brew enhancer 2. I'd hazard a guess that you're going to have a really great beer for your inaugural batch

 

[unionrdr]

Brew enhancer 2 is a combination of 500g of dextrose,250g of maltodextrin,& 250g of plain light DME.

 

[Hang Glider]

On an afterthought, I put duct tape around the lid to ensure it remained in place and I am glad that I did. When I came down to let the dog out this morning, the krausen had filled the remaining 1 1/2 gallons of space and bubbled out under the lid and tape.

do you have a blow-off or airlock on that lid???
taping it securely might be a recipe for a massive mess -

 

[midfielder5]

I would not have used a German Hefeweizen yeast (you listed Wyeast 3068 Weihenstephan) in a Stout... what happened there?
Wyeast has an Irish stout yeast.

 

[ronclark]

I would not have used a German Hefeweizen yeast (you listed Wyeast 3068 Weihenstephan) in a Stout... what happened there?
Wyeast has an Irish stout yeast.

I was looking to do a chocolate-banana stout and this was the yeast recommended by my LHBS. I was told that bananas are a fruit that does not add flavor well in home brewing and that this was a better way to achieve said flavor.

do you have a blow-off or airlock on that lid???
taping it securely might be a recipe for a massive mess -

I do have an airlock on a grometed lid. When I received it, I called the company and they stated that it was fine if the lid did not seal properly in a primary fermentation. I realized that I should do something with it due to the amount of fermentables and taped it on. It was not tight enough to prevent some spill-over, but probably saved me something of a larger mess by being secured more.

 

[midfielder5]

I was looking to do a chocolate-banana stout and this was the yeast recommended by my LHBS. I was told that bananas are a fruit that does not add flavor well in home brewing and that this was a better way to achieve said flavor.

Banana is a flavor that can come from that yeast, yes, but so does clove-- some say it is dependent upon fermentation temperatures.
You already have seen evidence that you need a blow off tube for this yeast (hefes & belgians in particular).
And the hefeweizen yeast will not flocculate out.
Good luck on your experiment but as a heads up: in the future do not be so cavalier about yeast selection as yeast make a huge difference.

 

[ronclark]

Here is the status of this on the chance that anyone is interested.

I soaked 1 pound of cocoa nibs in cheap Scotch Whiskey overnight. I dumped the nibs and whiskey directly into the stout after it fermented for 14 days.

I left it go another 7 days and then bottled.

After 3 1/2 weeks of bottling time, I brought two to a party last night.

I was very impressed. The beer came out quite tasty without the chocolate flavor being too sweet or too bitter. It went down smooth and packed quite a punch. The beer is so dark that light cannot be seen through the bottle at all.

The one thing I noticed is the complete lack of flavoring from the yeast or such a small hint I could not notice it. I assume the other flavors simply masked it.

Everyone that sampled it enjoyed it or lied and said they did.

I will definitely make something similar to this again at some point.

 

[midfielder5]

thanks for update.