Removing a Load Bearing Wall

[A4J]

Where is " the desert" A4J?

Palm Springs

 

[Glynn]

i would make sure the beam is an LVL style beam

 

[petie]

I am a union carpenter and what your talking about doing is not a big deal. If you put your beam above the ceiling it's a little more trouble but still not a major project. It's actually more of a pain to do foundation work for the posts than it is the rest of the project.

If the ceiling joists are shored up properly you shouldn't have a problem getting the two sides to line up as one. If there is a slight difference a good drywall finisher can feather that joint out and you'll never know it was there.

I would personally leave at least part of the beam below ceiling height and wrap it in a nice hardwood. But that's just my opinion.

No worries man. If was in Cali I'd give you a hand.

 

[kosmokramer]

I am a union carpenter and what your talking about doing is not a big deal.

Thanks brother.... im a union steelworker. Im totally comfortable working with metal, wood not so much at all..i wouldnt even know how to wrap it in hardwood...lol

 

[kosmokramer]

Palm Springs

Ahhh ur not to far... i work in colton and live in upland

 

[VegasJ]

just guessing on pics here... so don't take this too serious and run out to buy something. But this might help when you are talking to a local on doing some work... don't let them run ya round for big $$

loading on top chord (dead load) =

Asphalt 4psf (over calc for 2 layers)
15lb felt .15spf
1/2 OSB (most likely) 1.43psf
Blown insl. .1psf
possible 2x6 chords 1.5psf
added 3psf for wood shingles over asphalt
misc mech. 1.5psf
1" plaster ceiling (another guess) 8psf

20psf standard top chord live load
10psf standard bottom chord

total loading: 49.68, lets say 50psf (guess)

Now, looks like a 20' span (another guess)... so 50psf x 20span = 1,000

1,000plf would be each truss' (or rafter's) load bearing at the walls, 2 bearing walls... one at each end & we break that down to 500# each bearing but @ 1' (because we dealt with per sq ft earlier)... they look to be 2' o.c. (on center spacing) - so 500plf x 2 to cover the 2' spacing... & we're back to 1,000# bearing load at each end of the truss/rafters

if a beam is taking 1,000# every 2' we can say it has 500# every 1' of length.

If the opening will need a 10' beam, then 10 x 500 = 5,000# of load from the beam. since it bears on 2 posts (or will be...) each post will see 2,500# of load from each end of the bm.

a 3 1/2" x 9.5" glulam bm should work, as will a 3-ply 1 3/4" x 7.25" Microllam LVL



A lot of ifs and buts though... this is why it might be best to have an engineer come look & do a jobsite check. Better to know for sure than guess. A bowed ceiling and cracking plaster later on would suck and cost an eff'n ton more.

 

[kosmokramer]

just guessing on pics here... so don't take this too serious and run out to buy something. But this might help when you are talking to a local on doing some work... don't let them run ya round for big $$

loading on top chord (dead load) =

Asphalt 4psf (over calc for 2 layers)
15lb felt .15spf
1/2 OSB (most likely) 1.43psf
Blown insl. .1psf
possible 2x6 chords 1.5psf
added 3psf for wood shingles over asphalt
misc mech. 1.5psf
1" plaster ceiling (another guess) 8psf

20psf standard top chord live load
10psf standard bottom chord

total loading: 49.68, lets say 50psf (guess)

Now, looks like a 20' span (another guess)... so 50psf x 20span = 1,000

1,000plf would be each truss' (or rafter's) load bearing at the walls, 2 bearing walls... one at each end & we break that down to 500# each bearing but @ 1' (because we dealt with per sq ft earlier)... they look to be 2' o.c. (on center spacing) - so 500plf x 2 to cover the 2' spacing... & we're back to 1,000# bearing load at each end of the truss/rafters

if a beam is taking 1,000# every 2' we can say it has 500# every 1' of length.

If the opening will need a 10' beam, then 10 x 500 = 5,000# of load from the beam. since it bears on 2 posts (or will be...) each post will see 2,500# of load from each end of the bm.

a 3 1/2" x 9.5" glulam bm should work, as will a 3-ply 1 3/4" x 7.25" Microllam LVL



A lot of ifs and buts though... this is why it might be best to have an engineer come look & do a jobsite check. Better to know for sure than guess. A bowed ceiling and cracking plaster later on would suck and cost an eff'n ton more.

What is the pricing like on these beams? Its nice to have some calculations to referance. One contractor came out took a look and said 4x4 posts and 4x8 header...if he could fit it, 4x6if he couldnt. I have a truss company like a block away, do most sell to the public? Im working long days so im gone 6 to 6 and its hard to get over there. And i believe the studs are 16 on center. Not sure how much more that changes thigs. I will get a good measurement of the span when i get home today

 

[VegasJ]

One contractor came out took a look and said 4x4 posts and 4x8 header...if he could fit it, 4x6if he couldnt. I have a truss company like a block away, do most sell to the public? Im working long days so im gone 6 to 6 and its hard to get over there. And i believe the studs are 16 on center. Not sure how much more that changes thigs. I will get a good measurement of the span when i get home today

This is scarier than my guesstimations... "I'll just use a smaller size if I can't get that big'n over der ta work" LoL

price varies across the country

most truss companies don't sell beams to the public but a few will include them in truss packages

a lumber yard would be a better choice, maybe hit one up and ask if they have an engineer that could size a beam & what that would cost?

give one near you a call... & no, I don't mean Lowe's or Home Depot! :0

 

[kosmokramer]

Thanks vegas... after calling a couple lumber yards i was put in touch with a manufacturer sales rep. He came up with the same sizing as you. He said a 3 1/2 x 7 1/4 would work but 3 1/2 x 91/2 ridgid lam will give me 30-40% over load. I called a local lumber yard and they said 67 bucks for 10 foot. Not to bad at all

 

[VegasJ]

 

[kosmokramer]

Heres an update pic... id be done if it wasnt for all the dang overtime

 

[VegasJ]

sweet. looks like it is coming along


opened that room up I bet

 

[kosmokramer]

Thanks vegas... ya it opened up the room a ton. Alot more natural light now.

Another question for anybody that might be able to help.... im trying to figure what the minimum support for the counter will be. It will have an 8" overhang on one side, 4" sitting on the ponywall, and 13" overhang on the kitchen side. I grabbed 4 L brackets from home depot that look like this

http://www.architecturaldepot.com/BKT08X08FR-p-freedom-hidden-bracket.html

I was going to attach these directly to the studs using lag bolts and then drywall over the top on the side with 13". Will that be enough?

 

[ACbrewer]

I hate to put it this way, but a lot of that 'depends on the loading' of your counter.

However if you have L brackets like the picture that are about the full dept of the overhang, 4 of them on a 4 foot wall should be sufficent. I might get some smaller ones and put them on the other side to improve rigidity. - but then I'm from the 'when in doubt over build' school

 

[kosmokramer]

I hate to put it this way, but a lot of that 'depends on the loading' of your counter.

However if you have L brackets like the picture that are about the full dept of the overhang, 4 of them on a 4 foot wall should be sufficent. I might get some smaller ones and put them on the other side to improve rigidity. - but then I'm from the 'when in doubt over build' school

I kept looking and reading and what about the 8x8 brackets facing the kitchen side and 10x10 mounted on the same side of the wall facing the opposite direction. I can plane down a notch so they will sit flush every other stud. It will give me like 6 total. And i put a 2x4 inside were they framed the pantry so i can drill one or two through the pantry to give the pony wall a little additional stability.

 

[kosmokramer]

TAnother question for anybody that can help. The current access point to the attic area is in the kitchen, which i really dont like. In the hallway there is an old whole house fan that is no longer wired up. I want to rwmove the fan and put the access there and use the fan motor for my grain mil possibly. The problem is that a rafter runs right across. Question is, can i cut it? Here are some pics

 

[VegasJ]

technically, you should never cut rafters.

That being said...

sometimes people can get away with heading out 2x4s or similar to the rafters on each side of the cut rafter in 2 places where it is cut.

ex.

as now:

----------------
----------------
----------------

(rafters)


when cut:

----------------
----| |-----
----------------

and those vertical pcs there are toe nailed into the rafters on each side "boxing out" the new opening


edit: Are you sure that runs across and through? The bottom pic there... it looks like there are some rusty old hangers holding that pcs into the left & right sides parallel to the walls

 

[mariojr]

That cross piece that the fan is mounted on can be removed. It's just there to mount the fan. And the short pieces that run parallel to that piece are most likely there to complete the opening for the fan, but without seeing a shot from the top you can't tell if they are taking any load.

 

[ACbrewer]

That short piece can come out - see how it is on joist hangers?

Before you close off any scuttle holes to the attic, they are required for firemen to put their heads up to see if anything is burning. Assuming that the whole house ins't going. But it sounded like you just wanted to make it less of a general access point and have another. If you have multiple attics (common in houses with additions) then you need an access point for all attics.

Ceiling joists sometimes can be cut. Rafters shouldn't be cut (well I suppose for a sky light).

 

[kosmokramer]

That picture is actually a bit decieving, those aren't hangers it is foil insulating tape. Not sure why they put that into the corners but that's what it is. I was wondering where code was as far as mandatory access point inside the house. There is a big whole cute in the roof with a metal flashing over it ( guessing that's there to put the furnace in place). I was wondering if I couldn't cut the rafter if I could just close up both openings on the interior and just use the one outside when I need to get in there

 

[kosmokramer]

Here's a close up

 

[kosmokramer]

I just wanted to add to this thread that i have a whole new level of respect for the drywall craft...my hanging, taping, and mudding are taking forever and i would probably be laughed at by a pro...lol this is one of those projects i should have just paid for because it would have been completed long ago

 

[shelly_belly]

As ACbrewer pointed out that is a ceiling joist under the attic fan (rafters form the roof) and it can definitely be cut out as it is not needed in the opening. Just make sure what is left of the joist is nailed down where it lays across the hall walls top plates (they should be nailed but sometimes things get missed). Someone took the easy way here and added the fan to the top of the ceiling joists instead of headering off the joists and roughing in an opening. I bet the foil is there because their blocking doesn't fit and left a big air gap.

 

[mariojr]

I really feel like an idiot suggesting to remove the middle piece from the opening. Looking closer at the pic you can see the roof rafter running parallel to that piece to which shows the orientation of the ceiling joists. And the hallways in this style of house usually have bearing walls. Good thing I wasn't there with my sawz-all.

 

[kosmokramer]

Ive been working a bunch of OT but back at it tomarrow, the hall wall is loadbearing does that mean i cannot cut the joist and box it in?

 

[tomCT]

In the photo, it looks like the rafter above the fan does not leave much headroom. Do you know if there is enough headroom there to meet your fire code?

 

[shelly_belly]

Cut it. Go to the next full joist in either direction of the opening and double it up (either side of the joist, whichever is convenient). Cut the joist out and then box it in with 2 more members per side. Here's how it should look. You may have more than one cut joist in the opening, I only drew one.

Grey - Walls
Green - Existing joists
Red - New framing
Blue - Optional blocking to make the opening the size you want. May need to double up if trimming the hole with moulding wider than 1.5"

 

[kosmokramer]

Cut it. Go to the next full joist in either direction of the opening and double it up (either side of the joist, whichever is convenient). Cut the joist out and then box it in with 2 more members per side. Here's how it should look. You may have more than one cut joist in the opening, I only drew one.

Grey - Walls
Green - Existing joists
Red - New framing
Blue - Optional blocking to make the opening the size you want. May need to double up if trimming the hole with moulding wider than 1.5"

So the existing joist only need to be doubled up the width of the hallway correct?, not he full length of the joist?

 

[kosmokramer]

In the photo, it looks like the rafter above the fan does not leave much headroom. Do you know if there is enough headroom there to meet your fire code?

The rof slopes down right there but there is room to crawl up and opens wide once your up

 

[shelly_belly]

So the existing joist only need to be doubled up the width of the hallway correct?, not he full length of the joist?

Correct, because the effective span of the ceiling joist in the hall ends where the joists lay on the walls.