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Brewmex41

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what kind of attenuation are you guys seeing with this malt? looks like I might finish a bit high, was aiming for 1.011, looks like actual might be 1.015. mash temp 153
84% with pacman yeast and an hour mash @150
 

MileHighBrewer

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I'd have to check my notes but iirc I was at 1.068 and I think both beers are around 1.012 last I checked but not a good example with all the brett likely taking these down much lower over time
 
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Brewmex41

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7lb 2 row 55%
5.5 lb red x 40%
.5 lb crystal 60* 4%
2oz midnight wheat 1%
6oz corn sugar (5 min boil)
Mash 150* 60 min
 

JPrather

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Just found out that my LHBS is looking to carry this stuff soon. When they do, I'm going to brew a 2-gallon SMaSH with it i think, and try to hit the 1.050 OG they recommend for color.

Not sure if I want to use any hops for flavoring, or just drop in a little Warrior for bittering (20IBU?) and leave the Malt flavor as clean as possible. If anybody has any recommendations there I'm all ears!
 
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Brewmex41

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Just found out that my LHBS is looking to carry this stuff soon. When they do, I'm going to brew a 2-gallon SMaSH with it i think, and try to hit the 1.050 OG they recommend for color.

Not sure if I want to use any hops for flavoring, or just drop in a little Warrior for bittering (20IBU?) and leave the Malt flavor as clean as possible. If anybody has any recommendations there I'm all ears!
If I were to brew this again I would go one of two ways:
Mash super low and center the beer around the hops
Mash higher, add a little caramel malt or other specialty grain and make a delicious amber ale.
Either way, I like this malt with a little hop presence. You can use some American flavor hops, or try a German flavor hop to accentuate the German profile of this malt.

It's a little bland on its own. I shared a lot of the brew so I could keg something else.
 

JPrather

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If I were to brew this again I would go one of two ways:
Mash super low and center the beer around the hops
Mash higher, add a little caramel malt or other specialty grain and make a delicious amber ale.
Either way, I like this malt with a little hop presence. You can use some American flavor hops, or try a German flavor hop to accentuate the German profile of this malt.

It's a little bland on its own. I shared a lot of the brew so I could keg something else.
Thanks for the tips. I'd like to make it 100% Red-X just to see what the color is like @ the 1.050 Best Malz suggests. I was planning on mashing low, since I'm looking to use this in my altbier recipe eventually. I may go ahead and add some noble hops for flavor. Thanks again, I'm looking forward to it. Will definitely post some pics/review if/when I brew this.
 

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This thread got me all excited about this stuff so I bought a bag and made a beer yesterday using the RedX at about 58% (the rest Pils, Carafoam and some sauermalz) and what a dissapointment! My son was helping me and I kept saying "Does that look unusually red to you?" and he kept saying "No." I figured that if this stuff were redder than normal it would have some effect at 58% (the LHBS only had the 1 bag so I couldn't do 100%) but it doesn't. The wort has average color! Its 11.2 SRM and the first two components of the deviation of it's spectrum from average are -0.06 and + 0.08. This wort is the closest to average (smallest spectral deviation) I have ever measured. A really red beer like a Kriek or Frambois will have those coefficients at around 1 and -1. So unless this beer turns really red in the fermenter it looks like a hoax to me.

BTW, I e-mailed Best and asked if they had any data like this they wanted to share. I never got a response.

The things that make beer red are the amount of coloring (the SRM), the width of the glass in which the beer is viewed and the spectral shape. Normal beers of SRM above 12 or so are going to look pretty red in any glass wider than about 5 cm. This beer will be no different if the color change in the fermenter isn't great. Some lambics and fruit beers look redder than all malt beers because their spectra are differently shaped (block more green light). A wort made with 58% RedX blocks no more green light than a beer made with any other malt (± the normal variations).
 

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Hmm well it looked pretty red to me, but I used 90%. I have it carbonating now. Should have a pint picture in a day or 3.
 

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This thread got me all excited about this stuff so I bought a bag and made a beer yesterday using the RedX at about 58% (the rest Pils, Carafoam and some sauermalz) and what a dissapointment! My son was helping me and I kept saying "Does that look unusually red to you?" and he kept saying "No." I figured that if this stuff were redder than normal it would have some effect at 58% (the LHBS only had the 1 bag so I couldn't do 100%) but it doesn't. The wort has average color! Its 11.2 SRM and the first two components of the deviation of it's spectrum from average are -0.06 and + 0.08. This wort is the closest to average (smallest spectral deviation) I have ever measured. A really red beer like a Kriek or Frambois will have those coefficients at around 1 and -1. So unless this beer turns really red in the fermenter it looks like a hoax to me.
I think that the idea is that this malt gives a reddish contribution when used in combination with other grains, and a more distinct red when used in very high proportion. I did a 1.052 SMaSH with this that is currently cold crashing, and it is definitely nice and red. I split the batch and fermented half with Nottingham and half with a saison yeast, and the latter is quite a bit darker.

Now, I wouldn't say that my batch is an out-of-the-ordinary red (it's not firetruck, for example). But it is definitely red in the way that you expect a red ale to look. I think what BestMalz was after with this malt was creating a way to achieve that color solely through the use of a base malt, rather than adding roasted barley or other specialty malts. It seems to me, looking at my fermentors, that they succeeded. (I've been procrastinating on bottling, but when I get around to it, I'll try to put up a picture).

My last thought is that there have been pretty mixed results with this malt. I wonder if, since it's relatively new, there's still an issue with consistent quality across the distribution spectrum, or even from batch to batch at the malt house. I would think they would be on top of it, but with something like this that is the first of its kind, I could see some inconsistency being possible.
 

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I think that the idea is that this malt gives a reddish contribution when used in combination with other grains, and a more distinct red when used in very high proportion.
I should have held some back and done a test mash with it alone.

I did a 1.052 SMaSH with this that is currently cold crashing, and it is definitely nice and red. I split the batch and fermented half with Nottingham and half with a saison yeast, and the latter is quite a bit darker.
I'm curious to see how color changes with fermentation. I'm forcing a few mL.

Now, I wouldn't say that my batch is an out-of-the-ordinary red (it's not firetruck, for example). But it is definitely red in the way that you expect a red ale to look.
That's what I'm expecting to get - a beer that is about the same color as a recent Vienna made with 1/3 each Pils, Vienna and Munich I.


Does a red ale look redder than an ordinary ale or a darker lager beer of the same SRM in the same glass? The theory says only slightly. I'm beginning to suspect that a lot of this redness being talked about is in the mind (that is where color signals from the eye are processed, after all).

I recently went to a party with experienced beer judges and professional brewers present and gave them sample of the same beer to compare and contrast. One sample had enough Sinamar in it to make it about 3 SRM darker than the original. Of the dozen or so folks I tried this on only one said that she didn't really know much about beer (accompanying SO) and really couldn't taste any difference. The experts, OTOH, gave me widely ranging descriptions of differences."This one smells sour and thin one doesn't" but most said what you'd expect: that the darker one was maltier than the lighter (taste and smell) and some of them were pretty mad when they found out what I'd done.



In this thread I had particularly noticed the picture in No. 75. Recognizing that the photographic process, lighting in the guy's kitchen and limitations of computer displays are doubtless at play here I have never seen a beer that red, including Krieks and and Framboises. The most intensely red one of those I have ever measured gave a* of 46. The photo show a* = 54. This means that the beer in that photo, if the photo is accurate, is redder than the reddest cherry or raspberry lambic and I have trouble accepting that especially given what I observed yesterday. Does it really look redder than most Krieks and Framboises?



My last thought is that there have been pretty mixed results with this malt. I wonder if, since it's relatively new, there's still an issue with consistent quality across the distribution spectrum, or even from batch to batch at the malt house. I would think they would be on top of it, but with something like this that is the first of its kind, I could see some inconsistency being possible.
I wondered about that too. I even went back out to the trash and checked that the bag was labeled Red X. It is possible that the wrong malt went into the wrong bag or got the wrong stencil.
 

JordanKnudson

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In this thread I had particularly noticed the picture in No. 75. Recognizing that the photographic process, lighting in the guy's kitchen and limitations of computer displays are doubtless at play here I have never seen a beer that red, including Krieks and and Framboises. The most intensely red one of those I have ever measured gave b* of 46. The photo show b* = 54. This means that the beer in that photo, if the photo is accurate, is redder than the reddest cherry or raspberry lambic and I have trouble accepting that especially given what I observed yesterday. Does it really look redder than most Krieks and Framboises?
I was struck by that picture as well. That is decidedly more vibrant red than my brew. I imagine that it is in part a trick of the light.

I have to admit that my understanding of technical metrics of color and light are pretty much nil, but I am sure that the red color in my SMaSH is not psychosomatic -- at least not entirely. How it would compare to a non-RedX brew of the same SRM, I am not sure.

It's worth mentioning that on my brew day, I had a very similar reaction to you. I was surprised at the decidedly average look of the wort going into the fermentor. Given what it looks like now, I think that fermentation must play a role in actually bringing out the color, just as you suggested. As I said, my brew isn't stop-sign red, but it's much redder than it was on brew day. Perhaps you'll find the same result.
 

JPrather

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Aj, thanks for your contributions, I've enjoyed your writings and interviews etc. on beer color in the past.

You say that you made a beer with 58% Red-X, and you say the SRM came out to 11.2. By my calculations this must have been a very high gravity beer (~1.068 or so?).

I'm not sure if that is a factor or not, but according to BestMalz (earlier in this thread), they recommend brewing beers with 100% Red-X @ 1.050 gravity for optimal color. They don't say, but I'm assuming they're talking something in the 70-75% efficiency range for that. If the gravity is different, they recommend using Melanoiden or Pilsner malt to skew the color lighter or darker.

I'm not sure if a Red-X/Pilsner Combo at a higher gravity ~12SRM is the same. I don't know what that mechanism would be, and your expertise is much higher here than mine, but I figured I'd mention it.

Like I mentioned before, I think we may have to withhold judgement until someone does a SMaSH with Red-X alone at the Gravity that Best Malz suggests (~1.050), which I'm guessing is assuming ~72% efficiency or so. My LHBS is looking to carry it so I'm hoping to make a batch of that soon-ish.
 
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Brewmex41

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Mine was a little higher, 100% red x 1060 original. I liked the flavor of the brew once I realized my beer was being served too cold. I wish I had a way of taking higher quality photos, tho. You can't tell from the pictures what the color really is.
 

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You say that you made a beer with 58% Red-X, and you say the SRM came out to 11.2. By my calculations this must have been a very high gravity beer (~1.068 or so?).
In the fermenter (with the starter mixed in) the wort was 13.6 °P or about 1.056. You can't really calculate color from OG or OG from color because the amount of color development varies widely depending on length of boil (2hr 15 min here), and whether decoctions were used (3 here). The fermentation will also darken the beer relative to the wort in most cases.

I'm not sure if that is a factor or not, but according to BestMalz (earlier in this thread), they recommend brewing beers with 100% Red-X @ 1.050 gravity for optimal color. They don't say, but I'm assuming they're talking something in the 70-75% efficiency range for that. If the gravity is different, they recommend using Melanoiden or Pilsner malt to skew the color lighter or darker.
The colors of beer are like the colors of paint in that you can mix beers of different colors to get intermediate colors. Mixing the malts has the same effect assuming that colorant extraction from each malt is not influenced by the presence of the other. What I'm seeing so far is that something that is supposed to produce red color when it is mixed with pilsner malt which produces a typical reddish color produces a wort of color that is no different from what I would get if I used a darker normal malt. But lets see what happens when fermentation is further along.

I'm not sure if a Red-X/Pilsner Combo at a higher gravity ~12SRM is the same. I don't know what that mechanism would be, and your expertise is much higher here than mine, but I figured I'd mention it.

As I didn't do a 100% RedX mash I don't know what the essential color of the RedX is. Obviously the more of it that is used in a beer the darker (higher SRM) that beer will be and the more intense the mashing program and boil the darker the beer will be. Roughly speaking all beers have the same color spectrum so it doesn't matter whether it is brewed to 8 SRM or 12 SRM - the color characteristics are going to be the same. We're looking for something unusual here and haven't found it yet.
 
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My beers come out hazy, I think I need to do a better job separating the floury stuff while mashing and getting a better chilling method. I wonder if I would have used gelatin to clear the beer if I would have had a different opinion of the color of my beer. Came in around 17 Srm, the upper limit of an amber ale.
 

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In the fermenter (with the starter mixed in) the wort was 13.6 °P or about 1.056. You can't really calculate color from OG or OG from color because the amount of color development varies widely depending on length of boil (2hr 15 min here), and whether decoctions were used (3 here). The fermentation will also darken the beer relative to the wort in most cases.
The Best Malz instructions (brew a beer with 100% Red-X malt at 1.050 gravity for the best results) struck me as odd simply because that's at least efficiency-dependent. It's even odder when considering fermentation/boil length/mash methods like you say.

Based on that, I think it's entirely possible that they picked a reasonable mid-range gravity out of thin air (1.050), created a malt that hits 12-13SRM at that gravity (11-13L) and then said "welp, lets market it as a red-beer speciality base malt."

Thus, like you say, it's not actually any redder than any other combination of malts at that SRM.

If true, that would mean that it's usefulness as a "beer reddener" where you, for example, replace the Munich in a recipe with Red-X to try and redden it a bit at the same SRM, is nil.

That's not going to stop me from doing a small Red-X smash beer test though :).
 

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If red color is a main goal, I'd recommend dropping the Red-X to hit a gravity of ~1.050 and/or an SRM closer to ~12.

I don't have any input on the hop schedule, sorry! Let us know how it turns out.
 

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For the typical beer redness is enhance at around 11.25 SRM if the beer is looked at in an 8 cm wide glass i.e. redness (CIELAB a*) maximizes at about 90 SRM-cm. Note that a Nonix glass is about 8 cm wide at the top. As you go to higher color depth (higher SRM, wider glass), the color continues to get purer and more red (in hue) but as it gets darker you don't see it as being more colorful (less chroma) unless you put a bright light behind it. Look at a half inch of stout with a flashlight under the glass. It is very pure red.
 

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Vienna Lager SMaSH anyone?

I think I'll do one tomorrow, 20 or 25 IBU Halertauer Tradition @ 90 min, and a small 10-15 min addition, W-34/70 for the yeast.
 

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Looks like I'll be doing something similar. Just heard back from my LHBS, I'm going to be picking up 4lbs of this stuff on Tuesday.

A 2-Gallon batch would be about ~13.2SRM, maybe that's a touch high but it should be close enough for a color test. If anybody has any suggestions here I'm all ears.

I have a leftover 0.1oz of 16% Warrior that should get me to about 15IBU. Not sure if I want to pick up some hops for flavoring or not.

I'll be using either wy1007, 1728 or US-05 that I have on hand. I'll probably go with one of the higher flocculating yeasts. Will keep you guys posted.
 

ajdelange

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You say that you made a beer with 58% Red-X, and you say the SRM came out to 11.2. By my calculations this must have been a very high gravity beer (~1.068 or so?).
Yes, I did say that but as I was measuring the forced fermentation sample today I realized that I forgot to double the absorption readings for the wort. The wort (and beer) are dark enough (OG 13.5 °P) that the dynamic range of the instrument would be exceeded if I used 1 cm cuvettes so I use half centimeter. The math all assumes 1 cm and so I have to double the readings when I use 1/2 and forgot to do that so the wort was actually 22.4 SRM. The beer did darken during fermentation though its SRM stayed the same (tells you about SRM). Here are the comparative numbers

.......Wort....ForceFermented
SRM 22.45 22.56
Dev1 -0.085 +0.281
Dev2 +0.063 +0.293
Dev3 +0.014 +0.049
Dev4 +0.006 +0.017

L* 24.9 16.6
a* 35.3 28.0
b* 42.9 28.0

The fermented is 8% darker than the wort in a 5 cm glass and less red than the wort (but also less yellow) so a darker orange. It's spectrum is a bit more deviant that the wort spectrum (which is unusually compliant with the constant normalized spectrum assumption) and that deviation is in a direction away from redness.
 

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OK this beer is taking its sweet time to clear up but here is a couple pictures. I'm no photographer. Its seems less red to me now vs in the fermenter. This is a half pint glass. In the right light it looks pretty red, but not super blood red. I'll try a pint glass in a couple days.

1399759639406.jpg


1399759652291.jpg


1399759661587.jpg
 

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Beer always looks redder in the fermenter than it does in the glass because the purity of the red color depends on the product of the thickness of the beer and its SRM rating.
 

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Beer always looks redder in the fermenter than it does in the glass because the purity of the red color depends on the product of the thickness of the beer and its SRM rating.
Ah yes, the very appropriately named "Beer's Law". XD

(For those who never had to take freshman chem, it's actually what it's called: Beer-Lambert Law.)
 

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Ok so apparently my lhbs made a booboo... my Drop Top will be 8lb 2 row, 4oz crystal 10, 4oz honey malt, and 4oz special b... 2.5g batch

This should be interesting...
 

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Supposed to self-convert. I got 10 lbs. from Farmhouse Brewing in Janesville WI, and bottled about 10 days ago. I chickened out and added a pound of 2-row to ensure conversion, and there were no problems. Now to wait and see how the beer tastes. A local micro did a Red-X IPA with Mosaic hops, and it was great.


Sent from my Star Fleet hyperspace communicator
 

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Finally got around to brewing a SMaSH of this. Shot for 2 gallons with 3.5lbs of Grain, ended up with 1.75 with an OG of 1.050. Added just enough Warrior to bitter around ~20 IBU, gonna pitch some Wyeast 1728 in a bit.

Should end up around 13SRM so it should be a decent color test. I plan on cold crashing out the yeast and trying to get a very clear beer so we'll see how it turns out!
 

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From 1.056 to 1.017 with S04, two weeks. Hydro sample poured into pint glass, dry hopping now. Don't expect color to change but I'll post again when it's time to tap.


Sent from my iPhone using Home Brew

ImageUploadedByHome Brew1402449305.781984.jpg
 

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Even though mine was higher gravity it still tastes great, just need to remake it with the correct proportions, doesn't taste like drop top at 9%
 
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Brewmex41

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Even though mine was higher gravity it still tastes great, just need to remake it with the correct proportions, doesn't taste like drop top at 9%
It shouldn't taste like Drop Top, they use 3 types of caramel malt, if special b counts, and lactose sugar. Red x is a base malt that has more malt sweetness, as opposed to caramel or honey sweetness, than most base malts or caramel malts.
 

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It shouldn't taste like Drop Top, they use 3 types of caramel malt, if special b counts, and lactose sugar. Red x is a base malt that has more malt sweetness, as opposed to caramel or honey sweetness, than most base malts or caramel malts.
I used your Drop Top recipe, only LHBS gave me more 2-row than what I asked for. Probably should have clarified :)
 
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Brewmex41

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I used your Drop Top recipe, only LHBS gave me more 2-row than what I asked for. Probably should have clarified :)
Oh Haha yeah that'd be like two drop tops in one bottle. It was the first recipe I ever did, all grain. I haven't brewed it since April of last year. If I were to brew it again I'd add something to boost the mouthfeel.

I actually brewed a Barleywine with all the ingredients from Drop Top, aside from the lactose sugar. Hoping to bottle this weekend.


Hey, AJ, do you have any further updates?
 

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The beer I made with it is now lagering 600 mi south of here and I won't see it again until the fall. I did do a couple more scans as it was fermenting and did not find it becoming any redder than other beers made with normal malts so I'm still puzzled as to why it is called what it is. Beer seems as if it is going to be pretty tasty, though.
 

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The beer I made with it is now lagering 600 mi south of here and I won't see it again until the fall. I did do a couple more scans as it was fermenting and did not find it becoming any redder than other beers made with normal malts so I'm still puzzled as to why it is called what it is. Beer seems as if it is going to be pretty tasty, though.
1) Notice that red beer is about 12SRM
2) Create 11-13L Malt that self-converts, market as a "red base malt"
3) ????
4) Profit

Still interested to see how my SMaSH turns out!
 
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