Recipe Scaling

[Ryat66]

This is a lingering question that I can't find an answer for and having searched and read a large number of threads but coming up empty, I thought I'd go ahead and ask it.

Most of the beers that I make come from BCS. The recipes are given as 6 gallon recipes at 70% but I target 6 gallons at 80%, I use Beersmith so the scaling is easy. Specifically, I am looking to make Jamil's Oatmeal Stout so, I built the recipe with his batch parameters and then scaled it to my system profile. Obviously, in going to a higher efficiency with the same batch size I am going to need less grain to match the same gravity and color, I understand that part.

However, the reduction in specialty grains concerns me because I would now be using less specialty malts in the same volume of liquid just to meet the scaling. Isn't that going to result in a different tasting product? Or, by achieving a higher efficiency, am I still extracting the same proportions of flavor as I would at the lower efficiency?

 

[IslandLizard]

You brought up an excellent point, I think there was a similar post a few weeks ago, IIRC.

I encounter the same dilemma. Therefore, I always keep an eye on BS's numbers compared to the original recipe's, such as OG, color, IBU, etc.

Some losses are global and pertain to the whole system, such as mash tun deadspace, lautering efficiency, racking and equipment losses, etc. These can be scaled proportionally.
Other losses are directly related to mash efficiency, and should only be corrected for malts influenced by diastatic conversion.
So how much of each of these efficiencies is responsible for 70% vs 80%?

But... the plot thickens when you start to think about each grain in the grist. Are your higher mash efficiencies due to a finer grind? In that case, all grist component extractions are proportionally increased.

I'm waiting to see what others have to say.

 

[Oginme]

One way to enter a recipe from a printed source is to open up a blank recipe with your profile, load up the grains (you can disregard the amounts) and then hit the 'Grain Pct' button next to the ingredient box. Put in the percentage for each of the grains as per the printed recipe then use the OG slider to adjust the ingredients to give you the target OG from the recipe.

Alternatively, if the recipe does not give the percentage of each ingredient, enter the grains with the printed amount for each into your recipe template and then use the OG slider to adjust the ingredients to the target.



edit: you aren't the only one who post edits, IslandLizard!

 

[Ryat66]

Alternatively, if the recipe does not give the percentage of each ingredient, enter the grains with the printed amount for each into your recipe template and then use the OG slider to adjust the ingredients to the target.

I just did this using JZ's percentages and it comes in at higher OG, I'm guessing that's probably differences in yield potential of the grains as they were entered into his software (ProMash I believe). The SRM is different too (39 vs 35) but I don't see 4 SRM points being a big deal with this style. Wiping the slate clean and going back to his batch size and efficiency and using the weights instead of the percentages gets me almost an exact replica of his recipe as stated according to Beersmith. I don't know where the inconsistencies lie...

Again, there's always some doubt in my mind when I scale recipes. To some brewers it's not a big deal but when I start to see inconsistencies in caramel and roast malts I get concerned because a little change with those malts can go a long way. I will probably build this recipe with weights instead of percetnages, brew it and see how it turns. I'm sure it'll be a nice beer.

In the interim, I would love to see some additional discussion about this topic because it's one that I've always been curious about.

 

[Oginme]

I just did this using JZ's percentages and it comes in at higher OG,

Then use the OG slider to adjust the OG to the target printed in the recipe.

 

[Ryat66]

Then use the OG slider to adjust the OG to the target printed in the recipe.

Correct, it doesn't match.

 

[Oginme]

I think you are missing what I am saying. When you click on the slider for OG, you will get a pop-up window and can adjust the OG target for teh recipe. It will adjust the ingredients to obtain that OG. See picture attached.

 

[Ryat66]

I think you are missing what I am saying. When you click on the slider for OG, you will get a pop-up window and can adjust the OG target for teh recipe. It will adjust the ingredients to obtain that OG. See picture attached.

We're on the same page but be forewarned I'm going to explain myself in great detail here.

Again, the percentages given in BCS don't match the recipe parameters given at the beginning of the recipe, specifically, gravity & SRM. If you enter the grist for JZ's Oatmeal Stout Recipe, match the percentages and change the gravity to 13.5P, the SRM is 41, not 35 as stated in the book. To take this a step further, if you add up the grain weights as given, the total is 12.9 lbs. If you take the 9.4 lbs of base malt and divide it into the total weight you will come up with 73% not the 66% that's quoted in the book.

So, my point is, the recipe is more accurate using the weights rather than the percentages. I suspect the percentages are maybe geared towards the extract versions of the recipe or maybe it was an oversight in editing. Who knows.

Some brewers might consider this splitting hairs but I think it's important. I've had recipes where using 1-2 oz less of a roast malt, say roast barley, made a difference on a re-brew of the same recipe.

 

[fat-buddha]

Again, the percentages given in BCS don't match the recipe parameters given at the beginning of the recipe, specifically, gravity & SRM.

While not an expert by any stretch (considering I've done only two brews), would not the issue come down to the Ingredients you chose in Beersmith? If you drive down to the ingredients/Grains, it will list each as having a gravity/SRM. If you're comparing your recipe to someone else's, any difference in those numbers will have an effect on the final SRM/OG of the recipe as entered.

 

[Ryat66]

While not an expert by any stretch (considering I've done only two brews), would not the issue come down to the Ingredients you chose in Beersmith? If you drive down to the ingredients/Grains, it will list each as having a gravity/SRM. If you're comparing your recipe to someone else's, any difference in those numbers will have an effect on the final SRM/OG of the recipe as entered.

Yes, this is correct. Brad provides a nice selection of ingredients in Beersmith but honestly it's just a general list. I add my own ingredients based on the actual malt/brand that I use and try to obtain the accurate malt analysis for the lot.

For the purposes of this discussion I set all of the SRMs to match those in the recipe. We don't know yield potentials since JZ doesn't provide them.

 

[arnobg]

I hope my recent thread on this helps a little. I believe this is what poster #2 was referring to. It was a search to find the same answers as you...

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/showthread.php?t=567686

I ended up posting the same thing over on the Beersmith website and it was a little more helpful. In my case they recommended substituting Caramel 40L for Caramel 20L and keeping the ratio the same. Substituting the darker caramel in return kept the color the same too without altering the ratio.

http://www.beersmith.com/forum/index.php/topic,14243.msg55989.html#msg55989

 

[Magnus314]

I think you're asking if you should reduce all the grains, or just the base malt, right?

What i do is reduce just the base malt to hit hit OG, etc.

I figure if the beer is more flavorful, that's not a bad thing...

 

[Oginme]

Once you have the OG at target using the slider, you can dial in the color using the SRM slider.

From my perspective, I think you are overthinking this quite a bit. When I am matching a recipe, I use the OG and the bitterness as my guide. I know that my color ESTIMATE from BeerSmith will be a bit different from the actual color of what I brewed, so I don't sweat too much over it.

 

[Ryat66]

From my perspective, I think you are overthinking this quite a bit.

No question! I'm my own worst enemy.

I basically don't have any brewing friends left because they're attitude of "good enough" doesn't fly with me and my quest for for perfection drives them nuts. However, I find it interesting that every time we get together and exchange beers, everyone falls over themselves to get mine...

That's somewhat contrary to my signature but I really do enjoy the **** out of this hobby!

 

[arnobg]

No question! I'm my own worst enemy.

I basically don't have any brewing friends left because they're attitude of "good enough" doesn't fly with me and my quest for for perfection drives them nuts. However, I find it interesting that every time we get together and exchange beers, everyone falls over themselves to get mine...

That's somewhat contrary to my signature but I really do enjoy the **** out of this hobby!

Sounds like we should brew together, I'm the same way hence the same exact post as this that I was losing sleep over!

 

[arnobg]

No question! I'm my own worst enemy.

I basically don't have any brewing friends left because they're attitude of "good enough" doesn't fly with me and my quest for for perfection drives them nuts. However, I find it interesting that every time we get together and exchange beers, everyone falls over themselves to get mine...

That's somewhat contrary to my signature but I really do enjoy the **** out of this hobby!

Edit. Duplicate post sorry.

 

[Oginme]

No question! I'm my own worst enemy.

I basically don't have any brewing friends left because they're attitude of "good enough" doesn't fly with me and my quest for for perfection drives them nuts. However, I find it interesting that every time we get together and exchange beers, everyone falls over themselves to get mine...

That's somewhat contrary to my signature but I really do enjoy the **** out of this hobby!

I'm pretty much the same when it comes to process. I figure that if I have a tight process I can repeat anything I brew and like. So far, that has worked out well for me. I also have access to the tools needed to measure the actual color and bitterness levels on occasion. This has given me the perspective that no two processes will produce exactly the same beer, even given the same recipe.