Recipe inspired by m00ps' article "Not Your Fathers IPA"

[Biscuits]

Just throwing this out there for added input/critique. I am not married to these hops and would like to get a more fruity/"juicy" hop character, so feel free to put in your $0.02 on that.

**EDIT: Image updated to reflect changes made as of 11/28/2015

Also, not pictured are the dry hop additions, which I assure you will be substantial.

 

[Gavin C]

I'd ditch the flaked barley, target an OG greater than 1.060 and up the IBU. I just brewed a pilsner with ~34IBU. That IBU ballpark would not be high enough for my tastes for an IPA.

 

[Biscuits]

I'd ditch the flaked barley, target an OG greater than 1.060 and up the IBU. I just brewed a pilsner with ~34IBU. That IBU ballpark would not be high enough for my tastes for an IPA.

Why ditch the flaked barley? I am mainly putting it in there to gain any kind of head and/or mouthfeel that it can give me, is there something else it will add that may not jive with the other grains? And the IBU's I am not overly concerned with as much as I am having the flavor and aroma/

 

[arnobg]

If you are really looking to get a huge juicy/hop flavor like that article you're going to have to really step up the hop stand...he used over 20oz of hops in some of those beers and mostly focused at after the boil...

I've personally tasted his OJ inspired DIPA and I have to say you aren't going to get a flavor like that with 4oz of hops.

And I agree you're in low pale ale range with that bitterness.

 

[Biscuits]

If you are really looking to get a higher juicy/hop flavor like that article you're going to have to really step up the hop stand...he used over 20oz of hops in some of those beers and mostly focused at after the boil...

I've personally tasted his OJ inspired DIPA and I have to say you aren't going to get a flavor like that with 4oz of hops.

Does doubling it seem like a good starting point? I don't wanna go too bonkers with the hops my first time brewing it..but I also don't want to under-do it either.

 

[Gavin C]

Why ditch the flaked barley? I am mainly putting it in there to gain any kind of head and/or mouthfeel that it can give me, is there something else it will add that may not jive with the other grains? And the IBU's I am not overly concerned with as much as I am having the flavor and aroma/

Fair enough.

Leave it as is then.

 

[Biscuits]

Fair enough.

Leave it as is then.

LOL I value your input so don't think I am trying to defend the original recipe, I am just the kind of person that likes to know why. :fro:

 

[xpops]

I typically use about 1/4lb flsked barley for retention and it works great. A Lb seems over kill? Save some for future batches. Definitely get the ibus up over 60 - it will be worth it. I agree with another LB or two of base malt to increase the OG as well. Are those last hops for dry hoping or also 5 min? Youll definitely want dry hoping. I personally like to do just 3-4oz for dry hoping alone. Good luck!

 

[Bosh]

More hops. Much much more hops.

 

[slym2none]

To quote Iijakii

"more hops better good"

 

[Biscuits]

I typically use about 1/4lb flsked barley for retention and it works great. A Lb seems over kill? Save some for future batches. Definitely get the ibus up over 60 - it will be worth it. I agree with another LB or two of base malt to increase the OG as well. Are those last hops for dry hoping or also 5 min? Youll definitely want dry hoping. I personally like to do just 3-4oz for dry hoping alone. Good luck!

Thats the explanation I was looking for...done, and thanks. And the last hop additions are for whirlpool. I have another section not pictured in the image where I put my dry hop additions...this will definitely be dry hopped.

More hops. Much much more hops.

To quote Iijakii

"more hops better good"

LOL Point taken. Going to up the IBU's to 70 and double the flameout additions...will update the original post.

 

[hopbrad]

Just throwing this out there for added input/critique. I am not married to these hops and would like to get a more fruity/"juicy" hop character, so feel free to put in your $0.02 on that.

**EDIT: Image updated to reflect changes made as of 11/28/2015

Also, not pictured are the dry hop additions, which I assure you will be substantial.

not to highjack, but do AA% matter for flavor/hopstand/dryhop additions? will u get more bang for your buck and flavor/aroma out of 2oz of cascade vs 1 oz of centennial at the flameout/dry hop additions?
if so id do 1oz of the centennial at 60. then use the 2 oz of cascades later.
or get a higher AA hop like warrior, magnum or columbus to bitter with

id go more on the finishing hops too
are they the only hops you have on hand or want to use? citra is really good for that juicy/fruity flavor. but you dont have much in it(unless your dryhop is mostly all citra). centennial and cascade are citrusy but floral too. i think dank hops(columbus) enhance the fruit/juicy hops. but thats just my palate and what i enjoy. sounds like the wheat will help that too. i havent added wheat yet but plan on doing so soon.

 

[Biscuits]

not to highjack, but do AA% matter for flavor/hopstand/dryhop additions? will u get more bang for your buck and flavor/aroma out of 2oz of cascade vs 1 oz of centennial at the flameout/dry hop additions?
if so id do 1oz of the centennial at 60. then use the 2 oz of cascades later.
or get a higher AA hop like warrior, magnum or columbus to bitter with

id go more on the finishing hops too
are they the only hops you have on hand or want to use? citra is really good for that juicy/fruity flavor. but you dont have much in it(unless your dryhop is mostly all citra). centennial and cascade are citrusy but floral too. i think dank hops(columbus) enhance the fruit/juicy hops. but thats just my palate and what i enjoy. sounds like the wheat will help that too. i havent added wheat yet but plan on doing so soon.

No, the AA doesn't really matter for those hop additions since they will not be in long enough to give off much bitterness...but the reason I like those hops there is because they (to me) give off a more citrus aroma/taste than cascade does...I will have to try shuffling around the hop additions in the future to see what works best where.

 

[Biscuits]

So, I have been tweaking the recipe a little bit more and I think this is where I land. I submit it for your final critique.

 

[Gavin C]

Sugar boiled for 60 mins.

I'd add it late. (5 mins)

13g of Gypsum. No thanks.

No need for baking soda.

I guess you really want flaked barley so I'll leave that alone.

But 13g Gypsum in a 5.5 gallon batch. Bad idea.

 

[MapleGroveAleworks]

Sugar boiled for 60 mins.

But 13g Gypsum in a 5.5 gallon batch. Bad idea.

Why? Depending on his water profile that could absolutely be appropriate.

I use 8g in the mash and 9.3g at batch sparge per BruN Water for one of my pale ales.

 

[Gavin C]

Why? Depending on his water profile that could absolutely be appropriate.

I use 8g in the mash and 9.3g at batch sparge per BruN Water for one of my pale ales.

Assuming distilled water was used I would guess your knocking on the door of ~400ppm sulphate levels. Not something I plan on experimenting with on a 5 gallon batch.

If tap water is used it will be higher. How much higher? Unknown without knowing the sulphate levels in it.

If you enjoy the flavor of those high sulphate levels than feel free to rebut my advice with your own. I have no dog in the fight. These threads are about opinions not rules etched in stone.

From reading a lot of threads it seems many folks make these large sulphate additions with a view to adjusting mash pH. This of course is the wrong tool for the job.

There is no need for baking soda either.

Why? Depending on his water profile that could absolutely be appropriate.

I use 8g in the mash and 9.3g at batch sparge per BruN Water for one of my pale ales.

Not sure why your adding alkilnity to sparge water. This is generally not a good idea. Apparently I'm wrong here. Adding CaSO4 to sparge water is not a big deal. See below

 

[Biscuits]

The 13 grams seemed alarming to me too, but based off of Bru'n Water, it puts me at 300ppm, which is their suggested level for their Pale Ale profile..Remember, I do full volume BIAB...so I mash in with 7.5 gallons for this brew.

 

[Gavin C]

The 13 grams seemed alarming to me too, but based off of Bru'n Water, it puts me at 300ppm, which is their suggested level for their Pale Ale profile..Remember, I do full volume BIAB...so I mash in with 7.5 gallons for this brew.

That's just one profile to chosse from. It's not a recommendation. You're the one that decides the levels to use.

That is very very high but it's an IPA so to each their own. I would suggest, if you want high sulphate for whatever reason, not going to such an extreme level. It's very easy to adjust to higher levels on future brews if you like that minerally flavor. Not so easy to dial it back.

These are similar mash volumes to my own setup. My pale ale is not in the same ballpark of mineral levels though. For an IPA, I think you could try 200ppm sulphate if you wanted. For me, that's still too high. I really think 300ppm is going to screw the pooch. Your calcium levels are also very high. 300 sulphate and 150 Ca. This is not a good water recipe.

 

[Biscuits]

That's just one profile to chosse from. It's not a recommendation. You're the one that decides the levels to use.

That is very very high but it's an IPA so to each their own. I would suggest, if you want high sulphate for whatever reason, not going to such an extreme level. It's very easy to adjust to higher levels on future brews if you like that minerally flavor. Not so easy to dial it back.

These are similar mash volumes to my own setup. My pale ale is not in the same ballpark of mineral levels though. For an IPA, I think you could try 200ppm sulphate if you wanted. For me, that's still too high. I really think 300ppm is going to screw the pooch. Your calcium levels are also very high. 300 sulphate and 150 Ca. This is not a good water recipe.

I feel like you're really passionate about this...and I appreciate and respect that...therefore, I will dial back the gypsum to 4 grams...that will put me at a better sulfate:chloride ratio...right at 2:1. :rockin:

 

[whovous]

I've been making a series of Warrior/Citra/Mosaic APAs over the past six months or so and tweaking the recipe a little each time. I think you are way over the top with the Warrior at the beginning of your boil. It provides a very clean bitterness, but boy do you call for a lot of it! I do 2.5 gallon batches, so your batches are twice the size of mine, but you still use EIGHT TIMES as much Warrior as I do. I think that much bitterness will totally overwhelm all the juicy goodness you are adding later in the boil.

Have you checked the AA on your Warrior packaging? Your recipe puts it at 13%. My packaging puts mine at 15.7%! That is more than a 20% difference. Then again, my Citra is 14.5% to your 12%. Whatever you do or do not change, make sure you adjust your AAs so that they match your package amounts. Do not rely on the default numbers in your software. Changing those numbers will make a big difference in your IBUs.

 

[Biscuits]

I've been making a series of Warrior/Citra/Mosaic APAs over the past six months or so and tweaking the recipe a little each time. I think you are way over the top with the Warrior at the beginning of your boil. It provides a very clean bitterness, but boy do you call for a lot of it! I do 2.5 gallon batches, so your batches are twice the size of mine, but you still use EIGHT TIMES as much Warrior as I do. I think that much bitterness will totally overwhelm all the juicy goodness you are adding later in the boil.

Have you checked the AA on your Warrior packaging? Your recipe puts it at 13%. My packaging puts mine at 15.7%! That is more than a 20% difference. Then again, my Citra is 14.5% to your 12%. Whatever you do or do not change, make sure you adjust your AAs so that they match your package amounts. Do not rely on the default numbers in your software. Changing those numbers will make a big difference in your IBUs.

The Warrior is only for IBU...and the numbers are just rough estimates..AA percentages change with each batch as I buy from the brew shop, so until I actually buy the hops, I don't know specific numbers and I will adjust the recipe at that time...but if i buy Warrior hops at 15% IBU, I will knock down the weight of the addition.

 

[MapleGroveAleworks]

Not sure why your adding alkilnity to sparge water. This is generally not a good idea.

So BruN Water is incorrect in suggesting adding gypsum to the batch sparge? Why would it suggest that if it's so bad?

I'm not making this stuff up, I'm following the program because I thought that's what you're supposed to do.

Here is a quote I found from Martin Brungard who made the software:

If your goal is to produce a certain level of calcium and sulfate in your finished wort, then adding a dose of gypsum to account for the sparge water volume is required. You don't have to add that gypsum to the sparge water, but can add that dose directly to the kettle if you prefer. As pointed out above, gypsum does not add alkalinity, so its OK to add to the sparge water.

As you noted, adding the gypsum to the mash is helpful for helping lower the mash pH in addition to its other calcium effects. Do add it there.

So if he and I are wrong or I have missed something, feel free to correct. I love learning something new.

 

[whovous]

Even at 12%, that is 65IBU from the Warrior alone and I think that is just a huge pucker factor.

We all look for different things in our beers. I want to be able to have a second (or third) if the mood strikes me, but with 65IBU from the boil, I do not think my mouth could handle a second one, pretty much regardless of the ABV.

 

[Biscuits]

Even at 12%, that is 65IBU from the Warrior alone and I think that is just a huge pucker factor.

We all look for different things in our beers. I want to be able to have a second (or third) if the mood strikes me, but with 65IBU from the boil, I do not think my mouth could handle a second one, pretty much regardless of the ABV.

Normally I would agree...but this is going to be a slightly higher ABV beer and with the higher OG, some sweetness will remain and cancel out some of the bitterness, especially after a few weeks of aging...I could be completely wrong about all of this...but this is all a learning experience...

You're close to me...when it is done, you can come have one and see what ya think...I would love the feedback!

 

[hopsandhops]

My own 2¢ is if you are going for a "juicy" feeling/tasting IPA, I'd go with with 80-100 sulfate and ~150 chloride. I use flaked oats for body when I'm going for this style.

and more late hops!!! I used a 9 oz steep and 7 oz of dry hops in my last batch and it is by far the juiciest batch I've ever made. It had 100 sulfate, 150 chloride and 12% flaked oats. Its 68 IBU and 7.2%.

 

[Biscuits]

My own 2¢ is if you are going for a "juicy" feeling/tasting IPA, I'd go with with 80-100 sulfate and ~150 chloride. I use flaked oats for body when I'm going for this style.

and more late hops!!! I used a 9 oz steep and 7 oz of dry hops in my last batch and it is by far the juiciest batch I've ever made. It had 100 sulfate, 150 chloride and 12% flaked oats. Its 68 IBU and 7.2%.

Except for the 60 minute charge the rest are at 15 min/5 min..the rest are at flameout...and then I dry hop with 4 Oz....I might up this...but in the passed I have had pretty good success with my FO additions alone.

And 150ppm Chloride sounds extremely high to me.

 

[hopsandhops]

I agree on the chloride. I was always in the roughly150-180 sulfate/50-80 chloride profile camp, but the high chloride gives a huge airy mouthfeel when combined with the oats. I've done about 6 batches now with high chloride and oats and it's distinctly "New England Style" vs the high sulfate/ low chloride for "West Coast Style"

My hop schedule was 1-2 oz @ 15 and then a 60 addition to IBU, and then the steep in the 180* range for 30 mins. Dry hop on day 3-4 while fermentation in winding down and keg on day 11-14. This latest batch is by far the closest I've come.

There's a few threads on here about trying to achieve the mouthfeel and juicyness of the popular New England IPAs. I've been following these trying to improve:

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/showthread.php?t=554902

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/showthread.php?t=517721

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/showthread.php?t=456593

 

[Gavin C]

So BruN Water is incorrect in suggesting adding gypsum to the batch sparge? Why would it suggest that if it's so bad?

I'm not making this stuff up, I'm following the program because I thought that's what you're supposed to do.

Here is a quote I found from Martin Brungard who made the software:

If your goal is to produce a certain level of calcium and sulfate in your finished wort, then adding a dose of gypsum to account for the sparge water volume is required. You don't have to add that gypsum to the sparge water, but can add that dose directly to the kettle if you prefer. As pointed out above, gypsum does not add alkalinity, so its OK to add to the sparge water.

As you noted, adding the gypsum to the mash is helpful for helping lower the mash pH in addition to its other calcium effects. Do add it there.

So if he and I are wrong or I have missed something, feel free to correct. I love learning something new.

I don't wish to speak for the expert here but it is certainly something you can add. It is not something you should add if you want the wort to have a certain ionic profile. It is done for flavor reasons and can be added as a kettle addition. Either way it's not in the mash.

At the levels you are describing though I would have big concerns for the flavor. I use Bru'n Water myself. I've never added anywhere near the levels of gypsum being discussed here for a 5.5 gallon batch.

Clearly I have some gaps in my own knowledge with regard to alkalinity and gypsum in sparge water. Thanks for sharing that piece about the two.

There is a difference between adding minerals to the water in preparation for a mash and adding minerals to the sparge water or kettle. The piece you have quoted relates to the latter.

@Biscuits is calculating water additions for a mash. I believe these will have an impact on alkalinity in the mash as the chemical reactions proceed, calcium compounds form. This leaves the sulphate ion behind. As it is a negative ion it will drive up the pH. (alkalinity) Maybe this is nonsense.

Like I said, many gaps in my knowledge but I don't think we are comparing apples with apples. Hopefully someone will correct me if I'm taking through my ar$e

 

[Gavin C]

I feel like you're really passionate about this...and I appreciate and respect that...therefore, I will dial back the gypsum to 4 grams...that will put me at a better sulfate:chloride ratio...right at 2:1. :rockin:

I am I suppose. Don't want you to bless up the beer because of minerals. I'd sooner do nothing to the water than add what you have outlined.

As a related issue, what is the predicted mash pH with the adjusted water and grain-bill that you currently have? (i.e. the 300ppm So4 and 150Ca) I'd guess you're at about 5.8-5.9 which is not desirable.

Just as an example here is my own water profile for my last brew. A Citra IPA
I could certainly have gone higher in sulphate. But with seasoning too much can be a problem. If I like this and want to I may up the sulphate to 150 next time.

I needed 4oz of acidulated malt in an 8.0 gallon mash volume to bring the pH to my target. I don't see any comparable acid source in your grain-bill.

 

[whovous]

Normally I would agree...but this is going to be a slightly higher ABV beer and with the higher OG, some sweetness will remain and cancel out some of the bitterness, especially after a few weeks of aging...I could be completely wrong about all of this...but this is all a learning experience...

You're close to me...when it is done, you can come have one and see what ya think...I would love the feedback!

When do you plan to brew? I hope to try Round 5 of my APA this Friday or Saturday, if I can get my butt out of bed at a marginally sane hour. We could get together in about six weeks and you could try mine at the same time. Our brews are not dissimilar, so we could probably both benefit from the feedback.

 

[Biscuits]

When do you plan to brew? I hope to try Round 5 of my APA this Friday or Saturday, if I can get my butt out of bed at a marginally sane hour. We could get together in about six weeks and you could try mine at the same time. Our brews are not dissimilar, so we could probably both benefit from the feedback.

Brew day is TBD at the moment. I am trying to hold out until after the holidays because I have some new toys coming from Santa that will be fun to incorporate...but I might not be able to wait. Are you a member of any of the homebrew clubs in the area? I am a member of GRiST here in Arlington.

 

[Biscuits]

I am I suppose. Don't want you to bless up the beer because of minerals. I'd sooner do nothing to the water than add what you have outlined.

As a related issue, what is the predicted mash pH with the adjusted water and grain-bill that you currently have? (i.e. the 300ppm So4 and 150Ca) I'd guess you're at about 5.8-5.9 which is not desirable.

Just as an example here is my own water profile for my last brew. A Citra IPA
I could certainly have gone higher in sulphate. But with seasoning too much can be a problem. If I like this and want to I may up the sulphate to 150 next time.

I needed 4oz of acidulated malt in an 8.0 gallon mash volume to bring the pH to my target. I don't see any comparable acid source in your grain-bill.

With the away the water was originally, as shown in the image I attached, the alkalinity was @ 5.6...the Gypsum drove the alkalinity down. With the new profile and the reduction of the gypsum, I actually had to remove the baking soda and add lactic acid in order to bring the alkalinity back down.

 

[Ruckusz28]

Subscribed to this thread. I'm also in pursuit of doing something similar. All this water chemistry makes me feel like I need to hit the books!

 

[iijakii]

This isn't full of roasted grains, did you really need baking soda to raise your pH? I'll dissent from Gavin and say 300PPM Sulfate is a good target for a really sharp and pungent IPA. I definitely prefer it over 200 mark. I havent tried going higher than 300... I keep meaning to do a glass-addition taste but always forget. Tis all subjective of course.

Besides that looks fine. Grainbill is a bit complicated for my lazy self, not sure there's much to gain from the quarter lb of torrified and flaked etc, but no big deal. You definitely need a bigger hopstand if you want it outrageous. This looks like a good IPA but really, up the hopstand to make it great.

 

[Biscuits]

This isn't full of roasted grains, did you really need baking soda to raise your pH? I'll dissent from Gavin and say 300PPM Sulfate is a good target for a really sharp and pungent IPA. I definitely prefer it over 200 mark. I havent tried going higher than 300... I keep meaning to do a glass-addition taste but always forget. Tis all subjective of course.

Besides that looks fine. Grainbill is a bit complicated for my lazy self, not sure there's much to gain from the quarter lb of torrified and flaked etc, but no big deal. You definitely need a bigger hopstand if you want it outrageous. This looks like a good IPA but really, up the hopstand to make it great.

With the addition of all the gypsum it drove the pH down, which was the reason for needing baking soda...maybe "need" is the wrong word. I wanted the mash pH to be higher than normal, somewhere around 5.7-5.8, in attempt to give the beer more body. And I agree about the grain bill probably being a bit much, some of the grain bill is a combination of me trying stuff out and using up some of my left overs. I am really torn about the Sulfate amount now...so I think I will compromise and go middle of the road...put it somewhere around 150-160ppm.

 

[whovous]

I am brewing today. The plan for the moment is to cut the sulfate back to around 150 (I've been in the 2-300 camp, but I've also had scale issues, so I am not sure where I have really been) and to boost the chloride to around 150 in hopes of getting some mouthfeel magic. I will try to keep pH to about 5.5 or lower.

 

[Biscuits]

I am brewing today. The plan for the moment is to cut the sulfate back to around 150 (I've been in the 2-300 camp, but I've also had scale issues, so I am not sure where I have really been) and to boost the chloride to around 150 in hopes of getting some mouthfeel magic. I will try to keep pH to about 5.5 or lower.

What are you brewing? I just kegged (first time kegging) my Yooper's Oatmeal Stout last night.

 

[Ruckusz28]

I noticed that Belma hops are available on farmhouse. They've always interested me with their noted Orange aroma. I foresee a single hop Belma Blaster in my near future.

 

[m00ps]

I noticed that Belma hops are available on farmhouse. They've always interested me with their noted Orange aroma. I foresee a single hop Belma Blaster in my near future.

Just FYI, Belma is pure strawberry. Well maybe 95% strawberry, 4% melon, 1% orange. Its great, I use it in my normal IPA all the time. You just need a lot of it for an aggressively hopped beer since hops like citra and simcoe can overpower it even at a 2:1 ratio