Recipe help Brown Ale

[jturman35]

Hey guys i am looking for some input on how to tweak this recipe into a more abbey/Quad style brown ale if that makes sense? I have brewed about a dozen variations of this recipe and have always wanted to imperialize it. I thought about adding Seeds of Paradise to this recipe or maybe try adding some bourbon soaked spirals to take this to the next level.

I have brewed this similar recipe but used D45 Syrup instead of D-180- and received scores anywhere from 38-40 from BJCP Master judges. Anyone have suggestions on how to take this beer to the next level?

10 lbs Marris Otter
2 Vienna Malt
1 flaked oats
1 Crystal 60L
8oz Victory Malt
6oz Pale Chocolate
6oz D-180 Syrup

1.25 Fuggle @ 60
1.25 Williamette @15

2 packs Nottingham

 

[DBhomebrew]

Are you looking for Belgian character? Maybe start with a Belgian yeast?

 

[jturman35]

I don't want to make this an all-out quad but flirt with style if you know what i mean. I do think Nottingham brings enough fruity esters to the table for this beer to work and was thinking more along the lines of adding some adjuncts. I tried using Montastic yeast once and it came out horrible, think i dumped that batch.

 

[DBhomebrew]

how to tweak this recipe into a more abbey/Quad style brown ale if that makes sense?

What of the abbey/quad character are you seeking?

 

[jturman35]

I suppose I like the alcohol dryness and complexity and the raisin character but I'm hoping to get that from the D-180 syrup, also I like the chocolate, caramel and red fruit and spice flavors. I could add Special B but i make enough beers with special B already, i thought about orange peel or seeds of paradise as a start. It could be that i am trying to squeeze to much into this beer but some sort of spice or barrel age would definitely take this up a notch.

 

[DBhomebrew]

Notty brings the fruit at higher temps, but lacks the Belgian-y spice you do enjoy. What about the one monastic batch was so horrible it required dumping? Which strain?

 

[jturman35]

It had a phenolic off flavor probably had an infection if I had to guess. I also used honey on that batch which also probably was not a good idea.

 

[Erik the Anglophile]

Phenolic/peppery is a common flavour in belgian ales.
How strong was the beer you dumped and how long did it condition/mature?

 

[schmurf]

I'd suggest up the syrup or brown sugar to up to something like 15%. That's a suggestion I got from a commercial brewer when I was looking for how to make a strong belgian dark ale, and was pretty happy about.

 

[AlexKay]

Yes, definitely up the D180 — at least a full pound.

The Victory also won’t do much unless you use rather more of it.

Fuggle is low alpha and so an odd choice for bittering. I use Magnum in pretty much every recipe, but really anything high alpha will work.

 

[jturman35]

Comments from previous BJCP scores with 8oz Victory all mention toast so I know it's coming through. I am looking to add some dimension to this beer. My concern with adding a 1lb of D180 is the beer comes out to sweet and it bumps my FG up to 1.020. I am pretty happy with the current hop schedule as this is a smooth beer rather than a hoppy brown ale.

I have some Caramuich and thought about adding 8oz to the above recipe and keep the D180 at 8oz. Also thinking of just adding some oak spirals soaked in a nice rum or bourbon with Madagascar vanilla beans.

If you're really interested in the above recipe but with D45 amber instead of D-180 you can check out Dr Homebrew episode 153 and they really dive into this beer.

 

[jturman35]

Phenolic/peppery is a common flavour in belgian ales.
How strong was the beer you dumped and how long did it condition/mature?

Yes but this was a band aid phenol which is a no, no. I held on for a few years hoping it would age well but it didn't.

 

[DBhomebrew]

Caramunich is a crystal, raises FG and perceived sweetness. Syrup is much more fermentable, drying the beer with a less sweet finish.

Can't blame the yeast strain for a bandaid fault. Brewed and fermented properly, without chlorine, you may very well enjoy a moderately spicy Belgian yeast.

 

[mashpaddled]

My first inclination was to criticize the yeast choice but the Delerium beers are reportedly made with a yeast blend including S04 so it's not necessarily out of bounds. I tried replicating their yeast blend recently and it's pretty close. Different from the trappist strains but I am a fan of the Delerium series.

I would cut out the oats, crystal malt, cut down the victory and chocolate malts. Add more D-180 for more of a quad, D-45 for more of a dubbel. If you want something more in a dubbel range then cut out the victory and chocolate entirely. You want 15-20% of the gravity to come from either syrup or sugar so it dries out the beer and lightens the body.

I would ferment a little warmer than normal so you get more fruit out of it. I'd start mid-60s and let it rise to mid-70s and cut it off hard at 74-75F. Otherwise you'll get way too much banana. Spicing would compliment this. I would consider more phenolic or peppery spices live any color of pepper, grains of paradise, clove, cinnamon, etc.

 

[DBhomebrew]

the Delerium beers are reportedly made with a yeast blend including S04 so it's not necessarily out of bounds. I tried replicating their yeast blend recently and it's pretty close. Different from the trappist strains but I am a fan of the Delerium series.

What is the S-04 blended with? A Belgian bringing its spice?

Chocolate rye can come across as more chocolate-y and spicy than standard chocolate malts. Chocolate wheat too, but I haven't tried it. One is more milk chocolate, the other dark.

 

[mashpaddled]

What is the S-04 blended with? A Belgian bringing its spice?

Chocolate rye can come across as more chocolate-y and spicy than standard chocolate malts. Chocolate wheat too, but I haven't tried it. One is more milk chocolate, the other dark.

S04, the Duvel strain and a third unknown strain. I didn't guess at the third. I just mixed one dry pack of S04 and one liquid pack of WY1388.

Part of the reason why this is effective is because the Duvel strain is known to stall towards the end of fermentation so adding a helper seems to avoid that. The blend absolutely ripped through a 1.200 OG wort down to 11%. The Duvel strain is a lot of the yeast flavor but there is some of that English doughy and soft fruit flavor to it.

 

[jturman35]

Will blending the Belgian yeast with S04 or Nottingham help cut down on the Belgian flavors and phenols?

I’m looking to make something very subtle or quad like but not a full blown quad. I probably didn’t explain this very well but the goal is to brew something middle of the road Imperial brown ale with some sort of spice and or something with quad like characteristics. I like the idea of blending yeast.

 

[jturman35]

Here is the current recipe, ditched the oats and added 1lb of sugar to get the FG down from 1.018 - 1.015. I also purchased two oak spirals which I plan on soaking in a nice rum/bourbon for a few weeks before adding to the beer.

10 lbs Marris Otter
2 Vienna Malt
1 Crystal 60L
6oz Victory Malt
6oz Pale Chocolate
6oz D-180 Syrup
1lb sugar

1.25 Fuggle @ 60
1.25 Williamette @15

2 packs Nottingham

8%
1.076-1.015
28 IBU
21SRM

 

[Velnerj]

What about using kveik Voss yeast? Many say it adds an orange component. Perhaps a touch of special B and you'll have a over-ripe fruity beer.

I like the addition of rum/bourbon wood spirals too.

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

Here is the current recipe

If amber ales and brown ales had as many style sub-categories as APAs/IPAs, that recipe could fit into a "strong brown ale" category or maybe a "session" barley wine (using 5 oz pours). With that in mind, the BU:GU ratio is 0.36 (8%, 28 IBUs) which is on the sweeter side of the scale.

 

[mashpaddled]

Will blending the Belgian yeast with S04 or Nottingham help cut down on the Belgian flavors and phenols?

I’m looking to make something very subtle or quad like but not a full blown quad. I probably didn’t explain this very well but the goal is to brew something middle of the road Imperial brown ale with some sort of spice and or something with quad like characteristics. I like the idea of blending yeast.

No not really. It's just different. Way more fruit forward than most Belgian strains alone but unmistakable esters and phenols are present.

 

[jturman35]

You bring up a good point. I forgot about the bitterness ratio, I definitely want it smoother in terms of bitterness. This is definitely not a hop forward brown ale.

Looking at the IBU/OG chart I probably want to stay somewhere between 25-35 ibu so I’m pretty much where it needs to be.

 

[jturman35]

After smelling this Bumba Rum at a friends house I decided to roll with this. I get a lot of vanilla and spice which will definitely compliment this beer. Now I just need to figure out how long to soak these spirals. Going to brew this in a few weeks.

 

[HM-2]

If you want to push dryness and fruitiness but without the other phenolic Belgian qualities, then it might be worth trying WLP007 (Dry English Ale). It's fairly similar to the Fuller's British ale strain (so some fruitiness at higher temperatures) but will generally ferment stuff down to more like 80% attenuation. I've used it a few times (one imperial bitter, one DIPA and an ESB) and it always produces a hint of dried fruit that accentuates the malty sweetness but with a much drier finish than you'd get from most English ale yeasts.