Really need help with understanding water chemistry calculators

[latProd]

Hi guys. Yes, I know, there is a ton of info on water chemistry online and in this forum. I have been trying my best to research and understand this properly, but I am falling short on the technical side.
I understand water profiles, I understand how the different salts impact the water and PH etc. I can do this, if only i knew how to calculate the amounts to put in there.
I've been experimenting with bru'n water (.. I must be dumb because I can't figure it out).. Also, I looked at the brewers friend calculator, and I just don't understand how to use it or what I am supposed to fill in where.
Quick thing, my water is garbage so i brew everything from demineralized water, So all I'm looking for is how to use brewers friend (f.ex) to find out how much to add for certain profiles.
I put in water volume, percent dilution (which i assume to be a 100% in my case) and select a target profile.
I am then met with columns like "target minerals", "adjustment from salts", "adjusted water" and "difference". All of them have different values with the different salts, and in the "target minerals" i can put in new numbers.
I am really struggling here to understand what I am supposed to do here.
If any kind soul can take mercy on an idiot and try to explain how to use this tool, or any tool, I would be eternally grateful.
I KNOW the reason my beers aren't as good as they should or can be is my water, and I need to fix this.
Thank you in advance.

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

i brew everything from demineralized water

[...]

I KNOW the reason my beers aren't as good as they should or can be is my water, and I need to fix this.

Have you seen Water Chemistry – How to Build Your Water – Bertus Brewery or A Brewing Water Chemistry Primer?

 

[Coastalbrew]

I use and like Brun' water. What specific issues are you having using that program?

 

[Yooper]

Hi guys. Yes, I know, there is a ton of info on water chemistry online and in this forum. I have been trying my best to research and understand this properly, but I am falling short on the technical side.
I understand water profiles, I understand how the different salts impact the water and PH etc. I can do this, if only i knew how to calculate the amounts to put in there.
I've been experimenting with bru'n water (.. I must be dumb because I can't figure it out).. Also, I looked at the brewers friend calculator, and I just don't understand how to use it or what I am supposed to fill in where.
Quick thing, my water is garbage so i brew everything from demineralized water, So all I'm looking for is how to use brewers friend (f.ex) to find out how much to add for certain profiles.
I put in water volume, percent dilution (which i assume to be a 100% in my case) and select a target profile.
I am then met with columns like "target minerals", "adjustment from salts", "adjusted water" and "difference". All of them have different values with the different salts, and in the "target minerals" i can put in new numbers.
I am really struggling here to understand what I am supposed to do here.
If any kind soul can take mercy on an idiot and try to explain how to use this tool, or any tool, I would be eternally grateful.
I KNOW the reason my beers aren't as good as they should or can be is my water, and I need to fix this.
Thank you in advance.

I use Brewer’s Friend water calc all the time, and I can help with it. The main thing I think is to just realize that “targets” are there as a guide to what MAY be used for that specific style, not necessarily what will make the best beer.
For example, say there is a target for yellow hoppy. I created this one for my own personal taste, but it’s an example:

The MOST important thing here is not the exact amount of each individual ion, the most important thing is to create an acceptable mash pH, which I did at 5.3.

Think of those salts you add, as just that- salts. Just like adding salts and spices to food, a little garlic or onion can take a bland food to something special. The same thing is true of your brewing salts- a little can take a bland beer to very good but it won’t make a great beer out of a mediocre beer. So salts are not magic at all- it’s a tool to tweak a good recipe.

One thing to note- this is NO actual target for bicarbonate so ignore whatever that amount is. You only need enough alkalinity to get a proper mash pH. If your mash pH is between 5.2-5.6 or so, no need to add any bicarbonate/alkalinity at all.

To get a basic overview of what this ions do, and what they bring to the beer, I’d suggest starting here with this (short) three part series: Brewing Water for Beginners - Brewer's Friend and then simply play with the water calculator a little to add/adjust those salts until you feel comfortable with it.

 

[dmtaylor]

If water is complicated, you can never really go wrong with any style if you just use your demineralized water and add one teaspoon each of gypsum and calcium chloride to your mash (per 5 gallon batch). If making a porter, stout, or other dark beer, also add 1/4 teaspoon baking soda because dark roasted grains add acidity as well. That's pretty much all you need for your water to make good beer every time without even thinking about it.

 

[latProd]

I use Brewer’s Friend water calc all the time, and I can help with it. The main thing I think is to just realize that “targets” are there as a guide to what MAY be used for that specific style, not necessarily what will make the best beer.
For example, say there is a target for yellow hoppy. I created this one for my own personal taste, but it’s an example:

View attachment 708341

The MOST important thing here is not the exact amount of each individual ion, the most important thing is to create an acceptable mash pH, which I did at 5.3.

Think of those salts you add, as just that- salts. Just like adding salts and spices to food, a little garlic or onion can take a bland food to something special. The same thing is true of your brewing salts- a little can take a bland beer to very good but it won’t make a great beer out of a mediocre beer. So salts are not magic at all- it’s a tool to tweak a good recipe.

One thing to note- this is NO actual target for bicarbonate so ignore whatever that amount is. You only need enough alkalinity to get a proper mash pH. If your mash pH is between 5.2-5.6 or so, no need to add any bicarbonate/alkalinity at all.

To get a basic overview of what this ions do, and what they bring to the beer, I’d suggest starting here with this (short) three part series: Brewing Water for Beginners - Brewer's Friend and then simply play with the water calculator a little to add/adjust those salts until you feel comfortable with it.

This is very good advice, and thank you for the long and detailed answer. I might have overestimated my initial assumed understanding of these things, I will for sure read what you linked and educate myself further, then experiment from there. Much appreciated my friend!

 

[latProd]

I use and like Brun' water. What specific issues are you having using that program?

I found it ..daunting for lack of a better word, not quite sure where to begin. Then again, as i mentioned earlier, these kind of things are not my strength. I see a big XL form, I get scared.

 

[latProd]

Have you seen Water Chemistry – How to Build Your Water – Bertus Brewery or A Brewing Water Chemistry Primer?

Thank you, I might have, but i will check and reread anyway. Your second link is unfamiliar to me, so thank you. I will definately read it. My main issue is getting the hop flavor to come through, it's something i've been struggling with for a while. I initially upped my hops significantly, and changed when it is added and at what temperature. I've tried so many things, that I am guessing water is my next step.

 

[latProd]

If water is complicated, you can never really go wrong with any style if you just use your demineralized water and add one teaspoon each of gypsum and calcium chloride to your mash (per 5 gallon batch). If making a porter, stout, or other dark beer, also add 1/4 teaspoon baking soda because dark roasted grains add acidity as well. That's pretty much all you need for your water to make good beer every time without even thinking about it.

I think I read something to this effect before, I can give it a try, but also wanted to increase my knowledge on it since i am beginning to get frustrated with my results. (my dark beers come out fine, its the lighter/hoppy ones I am struggling with). "lord idiot the lazy" - this is me

 

[Coastalbrew]

I found it ..daunting for lack of a better word, not quite sure where to begin. Then again, as i mentioned earlier, these kind of things are not my strength. I see a big XL form, I get scared.

Don't let it intimidate you, just take it step by step. Water is just like any other ingredient we use in brewing, you can tweak it until you get just what you want, and sometimes it takes a little trial and error to find what you like.

In Brun' water if you're using distilled or RO water you can skip the first and second pages entirely and go directly to the grain bill page, where you enter all the grains from your recipe including their type (base malt, crystal, roasted, or acid), amount, and color in degrees L. All this information is usually available from the supplier where you got the grain or in your recipe. Next you go to the water adjustments page. Set the dillution field to the type of water you are using and 100%. Set your mash water volume, sparge water volume, and batch size in the appropriate fields. Then choose the water profile you want, ie: pale ale, dark balanced, amber full, yellow dry, etc. With these descriptions "dry" designates a profile with higher sulfate content which typically makes the hops pop more, "full" has a higher chloride content which accents malt flavor, and "balanced" is as it sounds.

Once you have chosen your water profile, you have to figure out how to get that mineral content in your water using the salts and acid you have on hand. This is a trial and error process that takes a little playing with the different salts until you get where you want to be. There are boxes, highlighted in blue, next to each salt where you enter the amount for each salt. While playing with the salt levels you want to watch the mashing water profile row, to see how it compares to your target water profile, and watch the estimated mash ph field to get your ph in the target range. On this page you're working with additions per gallon so most times the additions will be small, fractions of a gram for most salts unless you are using a profile with a high mineral content. You don't have to be spot on here, close is usually good enough.

After you have gotten your additions where you want them, go to the adjustments summary page and that will tell you how much of each salt to add to your mash water and to your sparge water.

The creator of the program is a member here and has written an excellent instructions page for the program as well as a water information page that are both included in the spreadsheet and are extremely useful and informative.

The hardest part for me when learning the program was choosing which water profile to use with a particular beer. I would look at similar recipes here on the forum that listed a water profile, and then compare that profile with those in the software to get an idea of which profiles might be appropriate for a particular style. Take your time and experiment. No matter what you do, you'll make beer.

Cheers!

 

[Beenym88]

Brun water has a ton going on. I like EZ water the best out of brun ez water and brewers friend. I am also not the most experienced but I would not stress too much. I used to always just use bottled spring water with no adjustments and never had a bad brew. Now I use my well water cut with distilled water and add what I need just to be deeper involved in the process as I plan on working in beer one day but I’ve honestly not noticed a difference.

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

My main issue is getting the hop flavor to come through, it's something i've been struggling with for a while. I initially upped my hops significantly, and changed when it is added and at what temperature. I've tried so many things, that I am guessing water is my next step.

my dark beers come out fine, its the lighter/hoppy ones I am struggling with

Changing the mineral composition of the water may help; there may be other considerations as well. That may be a discussion for a different thread.

At this point I'll defer to the original question (help with water chemistry spreadsheets).

 

[DarrellQ]

Hi guys. Yes, I know, there is a ton of info on water chemistry online and in this forum. I have been trying my best to research and understand this properly, but I am falling short on the technical side.
I understand water profiles, I understand how the different salts impact the water and PH etc. I can do this, if only i knew how to calculate the amounts to put in there.
I've been experimenting with bru'n water (.. I must be dumb because I can't figure it out).. Also, I looked at the brewers friend calculator, and I just don't understand how to use it or what I am supposed to fill in where.
Quick thing, my water is garbage so i brew everything from demineralized water, So all I'm looking for is how to use brewers friend (f.ex) to find out how much to add for certain profiles.
I put in water volume, percent dilution (which i assume to be a 100% in my case) and select a target profile.
I am then met with columns like "target minerals", "adjustment from salts", "adjusted water" and "difference". All of them have different values with the different salts, and in the "target minerals" i can put in new numbers.
I am really struggling here to understand what I am supposed to do here.
If any kind soul can take mercy on an idiot and try to explain how to use this tool, or any tool, I would be eternally grateful.
I KNOW the reason my beers aren't as good as they should or can be is my water, and I need to fix this.
Thank you in advance.

I feel your pain! I spent hours trying to download and make sense of Bru n' Water with lots of help from the kind folks on this forum. The .dat issue alone is enough to drive a somewhat computer savvy person crazy. And then, I realized that the version that I was sent and downloaded, even though being a supporter, was version 1.25 which is a free version. Once I was finally able to properly download the supporter version, which was ver5.5, the numbers came out very different from the free version regarding how much acid to add to get to proper mash ph. After much consultation in the private message part of this forum, I was satisfied with the numbers. I then download EZ Water and entered the exact same data. It is much more user friendly, imho. The results from EZ Water came out almost exact with the same additions except Bru n' Water had my mash ph at 5.58 and EZ Water had it at 5.32. Now, I think, which program to believe?

 

[Yooper]

I found that EZ water was usually about .3 off (that’s a LOT) from my actual mash pH when measured. I actually used three spreadsheets during a period where I was checking them against each other (four for a brief period, if you could the abysmal Beersmith water feature) and found that Bru’nwater and Brewer’s Friend were usually pretty close to the actual mash pH, with a few deviations, and EZ was always way off.

I started using Brewer’s Friend’s water calc exclusively a few years ago, since it integrates with my recipes and not in a separate program. I’ve found it easy to use, as well.

 

[DarrellQ]

I found that EZ water was usually about .3 off (that’s a LOT) from my actual mash pH when measured. I actually used three spreadsheets during a period where I was checking them against each other (four for a brief period, if you could the abysmal Beersmith water feature) and found that Bru’nwater and Brewer’s Friend were usually pretty close to the actual mash pH, with a few deviations, and EZ was always way off.

I started using Brewer’s Friend’s water calc exclusively a few years ago, since it integrates with my recipes and not in a separate program. I’ve found it easy to use, as well.

I checked it out but see no place to enter lactic or phosphoric acids?

 

[rburrelli]

I put in water volume, percent dilution (which i assume to be a 100% in my case) and select a target profile.

If you are using your existing water profile your dilution percentage would be 0, not 100.

 

[marc1]

I use mash made easy. It matches pretty close to my pH readings and allows for fine adjustments of the underlying grain parameters (you can measure your malt DI and override the default if you want). It also has a kettle pH adjustment calculator and allows for liquid calcium chloride concentration by density.

 

[latProd]

I found that EZ water was usually about .3 off (that’s a LOT) from my actual mash pH when measured. I actually used three spreadsheets during a period where I was checking them against each other (four for a brief period, if you could the abysmal Beersmith water feature) and found that Bru’nwater and Brewer’s Friend were usually pretty close to the actual mash pH, with a few deviations, and EZ was always way off.

I started using Brewer’s Friend’s water calc exclusively a few years ago, since it integrates with my recipes and not in a separate program. I’ve found it easy to use, as well.

These are pretty valuable observations. Thank you for your input in this, it gives me more confidence to delve into brewers friend!

 

[latProd]

I put in water volume, percent dilution (which i assume to be a 100% in my case) and select a target profile.

If you are using your existing water profile your dilution percentage would be 0, not 100.

Ok, well, whatever i put it to, the "source minerals" field is all zeros. I guess I just am missing something with this tool. Am I meant to keep adding stuff in the "brewing salt additions" field until all the "8. Difference" numbers are green? It seems i Gotta add up to 10 grams of some of them to get them within the green. I mean, I probably am not the sharpest tool in the shed here, but I wasnt planning on using like 5 different salt to get to where I should be.
This is an example of what it looks like if i add stuff so i get even close. Even here One is red, and it seems like I shouldnt be adding as much of all this stuff, but unless i am missing the whole point of the calculator... which i am assuming i am, i should be adding these amounts? Im confused (this is "light and hoppy" profile btw)

 

[rburrelli]

Ok, well, whatever i put it to, the "source minerals" field is all zeros. I guess I just am missing something with this tool. Am I meant to keep adding stuff in the "brewing salt additions" field until all the "8. Difference" numbers are green? It seems i Gotta add up to 10 grams of some of them to get them within the green. I mean, I probably am not the sharpest tool in the shed here, but I wasnt planning on using like 5 different salt to get to where I should be.
This is an example of what it looks like if i add stuff so i get even close. Even here One is red, and it seems like I shouldnt be adding as much of all this stuff, but unless i am missing the whole point of the calculator... which i am assuming i am, i should be adding these amounts? Im confused (this is "light and hoppy" profile btw)

View attachment 708572

You don’t have to make them all green. That red one is just telling you that for the style you have chosen you are over on Cl. Not that big a deal. Your other adjustments look fairly normal for your first attempt.

 

[Jayjay1976]

I've been having the same challenge as @latProd

I wish there was a calculator that would work out for me the amounts of each salt needed to hit the target ions. There must be some logical method to arrive at the correct solution without all the guessing.

Or alternatively, a list of water recipes all based on a starting point of zero as in the case of RO and distilled water, that lets me set the water volume needed and spits out the amount of each salt needed in milligrams. I'd happily buy a precision scale and all the salts if it could be as easy as following a recipe.

Seems like a product opportunity, a kit with a quality digital scale along with bottles of all the necessary salts and a sheet of recipes. I'd buy the the **** outta that.

 

[marc1]

Ok, well, whatever i put it to, the "source minerals" field is all zeros. I guess I just am missing something with this tool. Am I meant to keep adding stuff in the "brewing salt additions" field until all the "8. Difference" numbers are green? It seems i Gotta add up to 10 grams of some of them to get them within the green. I mean, I probably am not the sharpest tool in the shed here, but I wasnt planning on using like 5 different salt to get to where I should be.
This is an example of what it looks like if i add stuff so i get even close. Even here One is red, and it seems like I shouldnt be adding as much of all this stuff, but unless i am missing the whole point of the calculator... which i am assuming i am, i should be adding these amounts? Im confused (this is "light and hoppy" profile btw)

View attachment 708572

Just start with gypsum and Calcium Chloride.

Increase gypsum until the sulfate is at 150, then increase CaCl2 until your Cl is where you want it at 50. Do a sanity check to make sure your Ca isn't out of whack (if your Ca is crazy high, you can sub out some gypsum with Epsom salt, or some CaCl2 with canning salt, but beware that Mg and Na can contribute their own flavors if you use too much... some people like what they provide, but if you're just starting out, leave them out)

These are all fairly ballpark numbers, no need to get them super exact. Adding by weight is better than adding by volume, but if you learn what your measurements do in your system, you can be consistent.

One note: CaCl2 absorbs water out of the air like crazy, leading to inaccurate measurements. You can make up a bulk solution of it in water, then measure the density, and use that to calculate how many mg/mL you have (there's a thread on this in the Brew Science forum). Then just use a syringe to dose the appropriate amount.

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

I've been having the same challenge as @latProd

I wish there was a calculator that would work out for me the amounts of each salt needed to hit the target ions. There must be some logical method to arrive at the correct solution without all the guessing.

Or alternatively, a list of water recipes all based on a starting point of zero as in the case of RO and distilled water, that lets me set the water volume needed and spits out the amount of each salt needed in milligrams. I'd happily buy a precision scale and all the salts if it could be as easy as following a recipe.

Seems like a product opportunity, a kit with a quality digital scale along with bottles of all the necessary salts and a sheet of recipes. I'd buy the the **** outta that.

A web search using "Brewing Water Chemistry Poster" (include the quotes) may be of interest.

 

[latProd]

Just start with gypsum and Calcium Chloride.

Increase gypsum until the sulfate is at 150, then increase CaCl2 until your Cl is where you want it at 50. Do a sanity check to make sure your Ca isn't out of whack (if your Ca is crazy high, you can sub out some gypsum with Epsom salt, or some CaCl2 with canning salt, but beware that Mg and Na can contribute their own flavors if you use too much... some people like what they provide, but if you're just starting out, leave them out)

These are all fairly ballpark numbers, no need to get them super exact. Adding by weight is better than adding by volume, but if you learn what your measurements do in your system, you can be consistent.

One note: CaCl2 absorbs water out of the air like crazy, leading to inaccurate measurements. You can make up a bulk solution of it in water, then measure the density, and use that to calculate how many mg/mL you have (there's a thread on this in the Brew Science forum). Then just use a syringe to dose the appropriate amount.

well this worked out pretty well, brewing wizard. Thank you for the feedback, it definately makes the numbers look pretty good. Planning on using 2% acidualted malt from now on, so I'll check PH and see how this goes. Thanks again!

 

[latProd]

I've been having the same challenge as @latProd

I wish there was a calculator that would work out for me the amounts of each salt needed to hit the target ions. There must be some logical method to arrive at the correct solution without all the guessing.

Or alternatively, a list of water recipes all based on a starting point of zero as in the case of RO and distilled water, that lets me set the water volume needed and spits out the amount of each salt needed in milligrams. I'd happily buy a precision scale and all the salts if it could be as easy as following a recipe.

Seems like a product opportunity, a kit with a quality digital scale along with bottles of all the necessary salts and a sheet of recipes. I'd buy the the **** outta that.

Preach, brother!

 

[latProd]

Don't let it intimidate you, just take it step by step. Water is just like any other ingredient we use in brewing, you can tweak it until you get just what you want, and sometimes it takes a little trial and error to find what you like.

In Brun' water if you're using distilled or RO water you can skip the first and second pages entirely and go directly to the grain bill page, where you enter all the grains from your recipe including their type (base malt, crystal, roasted, or acid), amount, and color in degrees L. All this information is usually available from the supplier where you got the grain or in your recipe. Next you go to the water adjustments page. Set the dillution field to the type of water you are using and 100%. Set your mash water volume, sparge water volume, and batch size in the appropriate fields. Then choose the water profile you want, ie: pale ale, dark balanced, amber full, yellow dry, etc. With these descriptions "dry" designates a profile with higher sulfate content which typically makes the hops pop more, "full" has a higher chloride content which accents malt flavor, and "balanced" is as it sounds.

Once you have chosen your water profile, you have to figure out how to get that mineral content in your water using the salts and acid you have on hand. This is a trial and error process that takes a little playing with the different salts until you get where you want to be. There are boxes, highlighted in blue, next to each salt where you enter the amount for each salt. While playing with the salt levels you want to watch the mashing water profile row, to see how it compares to your target water profile, and watch the estimated mash ph field to get your ph in the target range. On this page you're working with additions per gallon so most times the additions will be small, fractions of a gram for most salts unless you are using a profile with a high mineral content. You don't have to be spot on here, close is usually good enough.

After you have gotten your additions where you want them, go to the adjustments summary page and that will tell you how much of each salt to add to your mash water and to your sparge water.

The creator of the program is a member here and has written an excellent instructions page for the program as well as a water information page that are both included in the spreadsheet and are extremely useful and informative.

The hardest part for me when learning the program was choosing which water profile to use with a particular beer. I would look at similar recipes here on the forum that listed a water profile, and then compare that profile with those in the software to get an idea of which profiles might be appropriate for a particular style. Take your time and experiment. No matter what you do, you'll make beer.

Cheers!

A special thank you for this long and informative answer, know that I appreciate the absolute hell out of it