Realistic to expect that sanitization temperature might save my infected 30L Speidel

[kmarkstevens]

Checking if anyone has experience or even a decent WAG on my Speidel. I'd rather not toss this 30L (8 gallons) plastic fermenter.

Unfortunately, I listened to a podcast about pichia apotheca, got my hands on some, did a bunch of experiments, decided that it wasn't horrible but the taste was not for me, and figured out over several months that pichia apotheca kept coming back like herpes.

Managed to save the 20L Speidel, tossed a Mr Beer fermenter I use for small batch experiments, cleaned out the aluminum fermenter, accidently dropped and broke my Big Mouth fermenter, replaced all the non metal keg parts, and got rid of that hell spawn from everything except my big Speidel.

In separate stages I have
1. replaced all the Speidel spigots and gaskets
2. soaked for days in a very strong bleach/vinegar solution
3. soaked in PBW
4. soaked in Starsan

And the Speidel remains infected and unusable for anything other than a sour (and I'm not a huge fan of sours and certainly won't brew an 8 gallon batch).

Questions:
1. is there another sanitizing method I should try?
2. I do have sous vide wand, and probably can get 8 gallons up to sanitization temperature? Before pissing in the wind, anyone with experience with bringing up to say 170F for an hour might actually excommunicate the pichia from my Speidel?

Otherwise, I guess no option but to use my loved fermenter for the odd sour batch and live with pichia being part of that.

(Again, pichia apotheca wasn't terrible per say. To my palate, it was distracting in a not good way, but I did manage to very slowly drink up all the infected batches. Holey moley, that stuff is hard to get rid of.)

 

[RPh_Guy]

Plastic fermenters are meant to be disposable for cases like this.
Instead of banging your head against the wall I think you should just get rid of it.

 

[AkTom]

Drive a silver stake through its heart and burn it!!!
Sorry, for your loss.
Cheers

 

[Vale71]

Since this is not a domesticated yeast it has the potential to sporulate under life-threatening conditions, such as those that you kindly keep providing for.
Spores are extremely resilient and won't be significantly affected by the low temperatures that you are limited to by the fermenter's material. I think you might have a chance with peracetic acid if you can get the plastic surface really clear of any biofilm but it would still be a bit of a hit and miss. Stainless could be sanitized with high temperature steam and that would basically guarantee success.

 

[lump42]

HDPE containers are commonly used for no-chill brewing. Try filling it with boiling water (to brim) and cool overnight, drain and wait 24 hrs, and refill with boiling water. The repeat should take care of a lot of the persistent fungal spores.

Picha sp. (according to Milk the Funk by the way of Wikipedia) form ascospores. Ascospores are not usually resilient or difficult to kill spore types. It does reference the production of glycosides and biofilm production, and that will make getting rid of it difficult.

 

[IslandLizard]

I think you might have a chance with peracetic acid if you can get the plastic surface really clear of any biofilm

+1 on using peracetic acid (a mixture of vinegar, hydrogen peroxide and water) to sanitize, once it's clean. Be aware, peracetic acid has a nasty strong vinegary smell, avoid breathing the fumes. Use gloves and face shield.

But as @Vale71 said, removing the remaining biofilm from every inch of the inner (and outer) surfaces first is the most important. And the most labor intensive and time consuming. Pay attention to detail.

Those Speidels have nooks and crannies, and mold seams, where rinsing or mopping won't remove it all. I'd use a stiff nylon, non-scratching hand brush and rigorously brush the whole surface, paying special attention to those nooks. crannies, and seams, the inside and outside threads on top, the lid, and that darn spigot and the area around it. The spigot needs to be removed, disassembled completely and thoroughly cleaned inside and out with brushes, rags, etc. and treated with peracetic. Perhaps replace all rubber (rubbery) gaskets with new ones. Or autoclave them if they can withstand the heat.
Use hot PBW + a small amount (1%) of lye. And gloves and a face shield.

Instead or in addition to brushes, I've been using those cheap nylon "scouring pads" from the Dollar Tree store, like 10/$1. They are not that abrasive and wear out quickly, which is exactly what we need. Use first on a stainless kettle or sink or so for a few minutes until they're limp and soft. The remaining wooly surface really cleans surfaces well and whips up a good thick lather. The pads stick to brushes too if you want to give them a handle for regular and smooth surfaces.

I've put plastics (mostly buckets) in bright sunlight (UV) for a few days, which helped with sterilization. But your Speidel won't allow much direct light inside especially where it counts the most.

 

[mirthfuldragon]

2. soaked for days in a very strong bleach/vinegar solution

Those neutralize each other and also emits chlorine gas. Don't do that.
For disinfecting soured fermentors, I use a disinfecting-strength bleach and water solution (~10%+ bleach) and completely submerge the entire fermentor.

I would also look at the rest of your gear for another common element spreading the infection.

 

[kmarkstevens]

appreciate the interesting replies. I may try the peracetic acid route. At least, I learned an alternative to bleach in the house, and will switch that over for other uses.

 

[IslandLizard]

I would also look at the rest of your gear for another common element spreading the infection.

That may well be the case. Such as hoses, siphons, racking canes, you name it. Once an unwelcome infection rears its ugly head it spreads to everything it touches. And infects back.

But a good, thorough cleaning/sanitation/sterilization regimen should get the bugs out. Just don't forget that one little spigot funnel, or some rubber seal or it grows and spreads again...

 

[IslandLizard]

I may try the peracetic acid route.

Not until everything is scrubbed clean first. You need to get rid of the biofilm.

AFAIK, most breweries use a very hot lye solution for (CIP) cleaning. Their plate chillers are stored filled with it while idle.

 

[kmarkstevens]

BTW, I didn't know about biofilm before. No wonder this is hell spawn to get rid of! So, even if I use this fermenter for sours or brett, seems like I will still have the pichia apotheca as an active ingredient. For example, if I throw in some Brett, the pichia will also join in the fun?

Man, I was so proud of getting my pichia and being ahead of the curve. Who knew? (certainly not me )

I still have a 20L Speidel that works fine, a 7 gallon converted stainless steel brewpot for all my English semi open ferments, and a bunch of Mr Beer kegs that work just fine for small split batches. So, I'll set aside the 30L until feeling motivated or I move homes, whichever comes first.

Again, appreciate all the replies and the education!

 

[IslandLizard]

getting my pichia and being ahead of the curve.

From being ahead to behind the eight ball in less than 3 months...

While it sits unused you may as well fill it up with water, add some washing soda or Oxiclean to it and a scoop or a royal glug of drain cleaner (lye). Top off, and screw the lid on it. Just don't let it freeze up over Winter.

 

[applescrap]

Our dishwasher has a sanatize setting and the dishes come out hot after drying. I wonder if it is hot enough to kill your problem. I like the boiling water idea too. Fill it with boiling water? Be careful sounds dangerous enough. Maybe dunk it in brew kettle some how? Light sand paper? Just throwing some ideas out. Surprised it lives through bleach. Thought that killed everything. Best of luck.

 

[IslandLizard]

Our dishwasher has a sanatize setting and the dishes come out hot after drying. I wonder if it is hot enough to kill your problem. I like the boiling water idea too. Fill it with boiling water? Be careful sounds dangerous enough. Maybe dunk it in brew kettle some how? Light sand paper? Just throwing some ideas out. Surprised it lives through bleach. Thought that killed everything. Best of luck.

Do you realize how big a 30L Speidel is? That won't fit inside a dishwashing machine. Or many a brew kettle, due to its shape. Now other brewing gear, sure. But a dishwasher to clean inside hoses or even bottles?

No, never use sandpaper to clean plastic (or stainless) fermenters, no matter how fine, unless you want to sand out a deep scratch, or some other irregularity.

I'm surprised too that the bleach didn't work. Now there is bleach and there's bleach. Chlorine free bleach? Color safe bleach?

 

[riceral]

Are you sure you want to pour boiling water into the Speidel? I think the maximum temperature for HDPE is around 150*.

Just my passing thought.

 

[applescrap]

Take the top rack out and i think it would fit. I never mentioned hoses or bottles but they arent a bad idea either. Not trying to clean them, but use the heat to maybe sanitize. It would fit in my 15g kettle i think at least half at a time for a dunk.

 

[Qhrumphf]

PAA or chlorine dioxide (sodium chlorite solution plus phosphoric acid is how I've seen it made) could probably do it. But both are highly dangerous industrial chemicals, especially when concentrated.

IIRC both of them will actually attack biofilm, unlike gentler and less effective homebrew sanitizers.

But it'd still definitely be preferable to have any biofilm removed first.

Even then, i would sooner trust heat than chemical. But, you're dealing with plastic, which is a limiter there. I'm not a microbiologist and don't know enough about this organism or its spores, but if they're like other spores, I don't know if even boiling would kill them. And of your FV can't withstand boiling temps, it definitely can't be autoclaved.

It is possible to reach sterile using either PAA and chlorine dioxide (as well as bleach and hydrogen peroxide), but not at no-rinse concentrations. This is done in the medical field on items that can't be autoclaved- and rinsed with sterile water afterwards. In other words, if you can get it clean enough, it is *possible* to completely microbe free. However I don't know if you could prepare either strong enough at home, and definitely not safely.

 

[lump42]

Are you sure you want to pour boiling water into the Speidel? I think the maximum temperature for HDPE is around 150*.

Just my passing thought.

It's typically stated that 170 is the max working temperature. They won't collapse like PET will. HDPE containers have been used for no-chill brewing for years (mid-2000's at least). Here's an article from the Aussie Homebrewers Forum discussing it (https://aussiehomebrewer.com/thread...ethod-using-a-cube.23742/page-15#post-1535993)

 

[kmarkstevens]

I have a sous vide heating wand. Not sure if it will get 30L up to 170 but probably. Or I can heat it up with the sous vide then top off with boiling water and should be able to get there.

I know that for both of my speidels, I pour in wort at 180-190F with no problem.

I guess net net, I need to clean the biofilm first when I get up the gumption. Maybe this weekend.

BTW, dishwasher bottle sanitization works great for me. But the Speidel is waaaaaaaay too big

 

[riceral]

It's typically stated that 170 is the max working temperature. They won't collapse like PET will. HDPE containers have been used for no-chill brewing for years (mid-2000's at least). Here's an article from the Aussie Homebrewers Forum discussing it (https://aussiehomebrewer.com/thread...ethod-using-a-cube.23742/page-15#post-1535993)

Thanks for the information. I didn't know that 170* was an acceptable temperature for Speidel.

 

[augiedoggy]

Thanks for the information. I didn't know that 170* was an acceptable temperature for Speidel.

170 is the max food grade temp for many food grade plastics before the possibility of them becoming unstable and leeching chemicals... same goes for people who use plastic coolers for mash tuns... BTW if the liner of your cooler MT is deformed and warped.. chances are its because you exposed it to temps above 170 where it was no longer stable (or safe)

 

[lump42]

Thanks for the information. I didn't know that 170* was an acceptable temperature for Speidel.

It may not be what the manufacturer states is a safe working temp, but if the options are to throw out the container or fill it with boiling water then there is little risk. Like auggiedoggy, stated the start to become soft and possible leach chemicals. In all things through life though it's about determining what risks you're willing to accept.

 

[lump42]

I have a sous vide heating wand. Not sure if it will get 30L up to 170 but probably. Or I can heat it up with the sous vide then top off with boiling water and should be able to get there.

I know that for both of my speidels, I pour in wort at 180-190F with no problem.

I guess net net, I need to clean the biofilm first when I get up the gumption. Maybe this weekend.

BTW, dishwasher bottle sanitization works great for me. But the Speidel is waaaaaaaay too big

If you're already pouring wort in between 180-190F (and allowing to cool overnight?), then filling it with 170F water won't do much else to kill the Picha sp. I would also suspect that it isn't in the main body of the fermentor either. It could be in a deep scratch or crevice, where the wort is not normally filled. Wipe everything down with a soft cloth (I use Harbor freight microfiber cloths or old t-shirts) and as warm as water as possible. Beg, borrow, buy, steal a large clean trash can or tub that the fermentor can be submerged. Disassemble everything and soak the entire fermentor with pbw, caustic soda (be careful), or your prefered cleaner brands. Rinse/neutralize well. Then follow up with the PAA.

If it is showing up in other fermentors, clean everything from the kettle valve (disassemble as much as possible) to the fermentor, replace hoses and any soft plastics.

The other idea is to find someone else have them taste the beer to make sure they are tasting the same thing you are. Sometimes these things get stuck in our heads and we are looking for a specific flaw that may just be in our head. If you can't get rid of the taste, sell it to a homebrewer friend that either can't taste the flavor or likes the flavor (be nice and tell him why your selling it to him and cut a deal). OR use it to store grain in...

 

[kmarkstevens]

Did a thorough cleaning on Sunday, including wiping down all the surfaces with a cloth and PBW. Tossed in a 2 gallon test wort to see how it ferments. Will know in 1-2 weeks.

@lump42 Pichia produces a souring effect. It's mighty prominent so highly unlikely it would produce a "ghost" or psychosomatic false positive tasting. BTW, it's not a bad taste per say, but doesn't add anything to my beer and now is pretty tiring when it crops up.

 

[lump42]

Did a thorough cleaning on Sunday, including wiping down all the surfaces with a cloth and PBW. Tossed in a 2 gallon test wort to see how it ferments. Will know in 1-2 weeks.

@lump42 Pichia produces a souring effect. It's mighty prominent so highly unlikely it would produce a "ghost" or psychosomatic false positive tasting. BTW, it's not a bad taste per say, but doesn't add anything to my beer and now is pretty tiring when it crops up.

Hopefully this attempt clears the infection.

It wasn't a jab at your tasting ability, just that confirmation bias is powerful force and is difficult for everyone to overcome. It's why much of science relies on blind studies. The advice still stands. If you can't get the infection out, find a brewer that either likes the flavor or can't taste it and sell it to them. Or use it for grain storage.

 

[kmarkstevens]

Quick update: It has been 3 weeks with a test batch just sitting in the Speidel. No hint yet of the very distinctive Pichia taste.

At the same time, on Black Friday More Beer had a sale + free shipping, so guess who also has a brand new virgin 30L speidel? Assuming the existing 30L is now pichia free, I have 2x 30 liter and 1x 20 liter speidels, plus a stainless steel 7 gallon brewpot converted with a spigot. If 4 working fermenters can't keep me in homebrew, then I've got a drinking problem.

 

[RPh_Guy]

Hmm, I only have 15 fermenters totaling 54 gallons (205L).

 

[madscientist451]

I counted a few years back and had 25+ , although most are used for aging wine and cider, not fermenting. I guess I have used glass carboy hoarding syndrome...(UGCHS), I blame craigslist for my addiction.

 

[IslandLizard]

Quick update: It has been 3 weeks with a test batch just sitting in the Speidel. No hint yet of the very distinctive Pichia taste.

Bravo!
Time to package?

 

[kmarkstevens]

Bravo!
Time to package?

I'm going to pour this test into my garden. Life is to short to bottle 2 gallons of mediocre beer. It was worth it 'cause I used DME, tested sorachi ace hops, Windsor yeast and is pichia free. Beyond drinking the hydrometer samples, I don't think it is worth the hassle to bottle these.

That said, I'm looking at making this bad boy AK: https://barclayperkins.blogspot.com/search?q=1930+AK+bitter

forgot to mention, I also have 4 Mr Beer 2.5 gallon throwaway fermenters that work great for split batches. can pick these up on sale for $7.5 and they generally last for at least 10 batches. Great for anything like pichia that may want to stick around.

 

[madscientist451]

Where can you get them for $7.50?

 

[kmarkstevens]

Go to the Mr Beer site and wait for an xmas sale. I'm sure they were on sale for black Friday. That's where I got a few last year. Here is the website: https://www.mrbeer.com/lbk-fermenter

I think these are great for split batch experiments.

 

[kmarkstevens]

Update: pichia is back. I thought I had killed those buggers off, but NO. After 3 weeks fermentation, I couldn't detect the pichia, but after 5 weeks ithere is no mistake it has revived.

Well, lesson learned on non -tamed fermentation. Stuff was insidious. Would taste fine at bottling, only to turn a few weeks later in the bottle. Then if one wasn't real careful about using what fermenter, could infest a different fermenter. Whack a mole. thankfully my keg didn't get infected, nor did other brewing vessels. Any future bugs in my garage are going to be tracked and quarantined

Some folks might like the soured taste that come from pichia. To my palate, it was not horrible, and had a unique souring affect. First taste test was kinda interesting. That said, pichia did not make any of my half dozen attempts or infections better. At best neutral, generally distracting and sometimes not again.

life is too short and Marie Kondo would jiu-jitsu me if she know I was still obsessing over this fermentation chamber. I did pick up a new 8 gallon speidel at black Friday from More Beer at a good price. No rescuing this fermenter but I will raise a glass to it's previous, honest service. Then take someone's advice upthread and use it for grain storage. Or for some future bug experiment. Actually I got a good black Friday deal on another 30L speidel

so be careful if you play with the pichia apotheca

 

[BruceH]

Did you try iodine? I'd try a strong iodophor solution (with soft cloth scrubbing, just like they do in the hospital prior to a procedure) prior to giving up. Iodine kills fungus, bacteria, mold, and yeast.

 

[RPh_Guy]

It's a bummer to see someone struggling with cross-contamination... I'm one of the guys saying it's ok to use the same plastic gear for both wild batches and clean batches IF you have a good cleaning procedure.
I generally agree with MTF's recommendations:
http://www.milkthefunk.com/wiki/FAQ#Do_I_need_separate_equipment

I've made over a dozen batches of cider with unpasteurized juice, which probably all had Pichia since I believe it's a pretty ubiquitous genus of yeast, especially on fruit. I also have made a number of batches with Brett, Pedio, and/or Lacto, and with dregs containing who-knows-what. All my cold side gear is plastic, which is also used for clean batches. I bottle everything and store it at room temp, so if one of my clean batches gets contaminated, I'd know it (people who keg have as easier time because the cold temperature suppresses microbial activity and will mask a contamination).

I'm a little tempted to try this Pichia strain just to further test my cleaning procedure, which is one of the most thorough I've seen used by homebrewers.

 

[kmarkstevens]

@RPh_Guy you could try emailing Dr. Maitreya Dunham ([email protected] ) at the university of Washington department of genome. This is her page. She has various grants and mailed me a sample just on a simple email request.

Pichia has multiple strains. This one is Pichia Apotheca. Here is a link to the basic brewing radio podcast that got me intrigued. Scroll down to the Aug 2, 2018.

 

[RPh_Guy]

Thanks ... I'll have to see whether anyone gave it a favorable recommendation. Your review of it isn't exactly glowing, even besides the fact that you're having difficulty getting rid of it.

Pichia apotheca is a species, not a strain.