Raw Vegan brewing.

[bottlebomber]

Don't look now, but you're engaging in it.

He didn't say that he wasn't. I took this to mean that he didn't appreciate the making of snide remarks without actually engaging the real substance of the discussion. It wasn't that hard to understand.

 

[Ogri]

He's out of his mind. I've didn't have as much as a Slim Jim growing up and I'm 6'6" and 245 lbs. No apparent lack of nourishment there. If the doctor thinks you need to eat meat to get proper nourishment he must be from the beef belt. My ex wife was vegetarian, and although she was very tiny our boys all weighed over 8 lbs and were off the charts for size all through their pediatrics. They are now eating a 99% vegetarian diet and are monsters... I think ignorance plays a large part in this thinking. What does meat provide that a vegetarian diet does not?

Somewhere in ancient history it gave mankind the choice of leisure time. The ability to spend less time fulfilling calorific obligations, by having to forage and prepare plants and vegetables, and more time to devote to thinking and mental advancement due to a nutritionally effective delivery system.

We're omnivores, aren't we??? with the ability to choose............and the luxury of preference .

 

[MalFet]

I'll let you go back and re-read your replies in this thread. If you weren't engaged, then you probably wouldn't have bothered to post multiple times. Just an observation.

Hmm...I think you might have misunderstood my post. I certainly never claimed that I wasn't engaged. Quite the contrary, I was saying engagement with substance (rather than the imputed emotional state of others) is a good thing.

 

[MalFet]

He didn't say that he wasn't. I took this to mean that he didn't appreciate the making of snide remarks without actually engaging the real substance of the discussion. It wasn't that hard to understand.

What he said.

 

[ACbrewer]

I think you may lose the majority of the starch by washing the grains in acid? Especially after rinsing it too?

I don't think an enzyme is required -- should be able to just soak the grains for an extended period of time.

Also, don't the alpha acids in the hops need to be isomerized to get the desired bitterness?

Is DMS a concern if there isn't a boil?

I too enjoy the puzzle. I wish people weren't so up in arms over what other people choose to eat.

Well I see as problems, 1, sacrofication of the starches, 2, isomerization of the hops and 3. last but more important, sanitation of the wort. I suppose DMS also could be a problem, but I'm not exactly sure how it is formed. Does it require heat to make (say 140F) and then get driven off at a boil?

Anyhow, yes #2 would require a boil to get good bittering out of the hops, although some will come out with a soak at room temp. The isomerization is iirc a change of the AA shape so it is more water soluable. But it might be only 1/10th ro even 1/100th as soluable, hence why I suggested using a different bittering agent.

#1 I don't think can be done without hitting the activation energies of the emzynes which are in the 140 to 160F range (depending on emzyme).

#3, is clearly the most difficult - how to make it all sanitary.

 

[Whattawort]

What he said.

Okie dokie then. Carry on.

 

[Whattawort]

Well I see as problems, 1, sacrofication of the starches, 2, isomerization of the hops and 3. last but more important, sanitation of the wort. I suppose DMS also could be a problem, but I'm not exactly sure how it is formed. Does it require heat to make (say 140F) and then get driven off at a boil?

Anyhow, yes #2 would require a boil to get good bittering out of the hops, although some will come out with a soak at room temp. The isomerization is iirc a change of the AA shape so it is more water soluable. But it might be only 1/10th ro even 1/100th as soluable, hence why I suggested using a different bittering agent.

#1 I don't think can be done without hitting the activation energies of the emzynes which are in the 140 to 160F range (depending on emzyme).

#3, is clearly the most difficult - how to make it all sanitary.

I would think that heather tips could be a reasonable replacement.

 

[teresalgl]

Well I see as problems, 1, sacrofication of the starches, 2, isomerization of the hops and 3. last but more important, sanitation of the wort. I suppose DMS also could be a problem, but I'm not exactly sure how it is formed. Does it require heat to make (say 140F) and then get driven off at a boil?

Anyhow, yes #2 would require a boil to get good bittering out of the hops, although some will come out with a soak at room temp. The isomerization is iirc a change of the AA shape so it is more water soluable. But it might be only 1/10th ro even 1/100th as soluable, hence why I suggested using a different bittering agent.

#1 I don't think can be done without hitting the activation energies of the emzynes which are in the 140 to 160F range (depending on emzyme).

#3, is clearly the most difficult - how to make it all sanitary.

Enzymes are catalysts. They only speed up what would naturally occur. The starches would break down into sugars eventually. Probably would take a day or 2 though.

Could campden be used to sanatize?

And I'm not sure about the DMS. It may be possible to add a reagent and get it to crash out rather than boiling it off.

 

[TyTanium]

...But it is football season, and who can resist hot wings, bacon burgers, bratwurst, and beer ever now and then? Ok, some of you can, but I'm not that strong willed.

Sounds primal to me. Sans the bun. Taters are ok too, especially loaded with high-fat like cheese, sour cream & bacon.

 

[Whattawort]

Sounds primal to me. Sans the bun. Taters are ok too, especially loaded with high-fat like cheese, sour cream & bacon.

Primal would be to see me dine on the swine. It isn't pretty. It's safe to say if you try to steal my bacon, you're gonna pull back a stump.

 

[ACbrewer]

Enzymes are catalysts. They only speed up what would naturally occur. The starches would break down into sugars eventually. Probably would take a day or 2 though.

Could campden be used to sanatize?

And I'm not sure about the DMS. It may be possible to add a reagent and get it to crash out rather than boiling it off.

I'll have to get some grain and test that idea about the starches breaking down on their own.

For campden - it can be used. I forgot that the wine industry does that, although it adds 'sulfates' or some such which some claim give headaches, it does however disapate in air as a sanatizer (meaning after about 24 hours, the anti bacterial effects are gone). So it would be perfect for this assuming it passes whatever 'addative test' there is. - I 'm figuring anyone who worries about heating their wort is worried about other issues like addatives.

the page on DMS on the hbt wiki is rather intersting. https://www.homebrewtalk.com/wiki/index.php/DMS basically it states that heat causes the creation of DMS, and more heat evaporates it. Also it gets into the origins of DMS (from SMM which comes from germination). Some of it can be controled by germination methodology. So of it for this thought experient seems to be controlled by not boiling - and thus not alowing SMM to enter into solution, nor convert with activation energy (aka heat) to DMS. Although I might be reading the wiki wrong.

 

[teresalgl]

I'll have to get some grain and test that idea about the starches breaking down on their own.

For campden - it can be used. I forgot that the wine industry does that, although it adds 'sulfates' or some such which some claim give headaches, it does however disapate in air as a sanatizer (meaning after about 24 hours, the anti bacterial effects are gone). So it would be perfect for this assuming it passes whatever 'addative test' there is. - I 'm figuring anyone who worries about heating their wort is worried about other issues like addatives.

the page on DMS on the hbt wiki is rather intersting. https://www.homebrewtalk.com/wiki/index.php/DMS basically it states that heat causes the creation of DMS, and more heat evaporates it. Also it gets into the origins of DMS (from SMM which comes from germination). Some of it can be controled by germination methodology. So of it for this thought experient seems to be controlled by not boiling - and thus not alowing SMM to enter into solution, nor convert with activation energy (aka heat) to DMS. Although I might be reading the wiki wrong.

It does seem to say that DMS is created by heating -- hmmm, I guess the only real way to find out if you'd get any off-flavors is to try it.

 

[bottlebomber]

2. I've been trying to figure out sanitation of the wort, which won't be boiled and the best I've come up with is to acid wash all the grain an hops (or other spice) and then rinse a few times to remove most of the acid characteristics.

Pressure. Enough pressure and you can sanitize.

 

[ACbrewer]

Pressure. Enough pressure and you can sanitize.

Ok, how do I do that without heating the wort? Again BB, I see this as an interesting puzzle, which someday when I'm filthy rich (or just rich since being filthy makes sanitation hard) and have lots of free time, I might explore, but now I'm not likely to do. I don't mind boiling (or animal products esp honey!)

 

[bottlebomber]

Somewhere in ancient history it gave mankind the choice of leisure time. The ability to spend less time fulfilling calorific obligations, by having to forage and prepare plants and vegetables, and more time to devote to thinking and mental advancement due to a nutritionally effective delivery system.

We're omnivores, aren't we??? with the ability to choose............and the luxury of preference .

Farming did that, not eating meat. From a agricultural perspective, grains and legumes keep much longer than meat, so actually the point that you are making is better supported by vegetable crops than meat. Meat has always been a luxury until the advent of industrial animal farming and refrigeration. When people used to kill a cow some of it may have been dried but the vast majority of it had to be consumed fairly quickly. It was a big deal, and wasn't something that was done every day. No citations to support this claim.

 

[bottlebomber]

Ok, how do I do that without heating the wort? Again BB, I see this as an interesting puzzle, which someday when I'm filthy rich (or just rich since being filthy makes sanitation hard) and have lots of free time, I might explore, but now I'm not likely to do. I don't mind boiling (or animal products esp honey!)

I will look into that but I know for sure there is a raw brand of coconut water I've purchased that claims to sanitize using enormous amounts of pressure. I'll have to research it more.

 

[RiverCityBrewer]

Pressure. Enough pressure and you can sanitize.

Never heard this before, can you clarify? You aren't thinking about lowering the boiling point by pulling a vacuum right?

 

[JordanThomas]

Farming did that, not eating meat. From a agricultural perspective, grains and legumes keep much longer than meat, so actually the point that you are making is better supported by vegetable crops than meat. Meat has always been a luxury until the advent of industrial animal farming and refrigeration. When people used to kill a cow some of it may have been dried but the vast majority of it had to be consumed fairly quickly. It was a big deal, and wasn't something that was done every day. No citations to support this claim.

I'd say that is very logical. The best that could be used to preserve would be large amounts of salt. Then again, containment from bugs had to be difficult.

 

[ACbrewer]

Farming did that, not eating meat. From a agricultural perspective, grains and legumes keep much longer than meat, so actually the point that you are making is better supported by vegetable crops than meat. Meat has always been a luxury until the advent of industrial animal farming and refrigeration. When people used to kill a cow some of it may have been dried but the vast majority of it had to be consumed fairly quickly. It was a big deal, and wasn't something that was done every day. No citations to support this claim.

I'd say that is very logical. The best that could be used to preserve would be large amounts of salt. Then again, containment from bugs had to be difficult.

Smoking can also be used for the preservation. And yes modern (read mostly west/american) alows for a lot of meat. And while humans are onmivores, we are only recently shifted from herbavores. Frequently you can get better calories from just plants, but you can get better density from meat. Meat can be an advantage if you have to hunt/gather everything as it adds to the diversity, and again has energy density per mass.
However as Jared Diamond pointed out in one of his books, looking at a group of hunter/gathers from Modern day Africa (yes they still do that), the gathering of vegitable grandmothers brought in something like 5000 calories per day, where as a lucky hunters brought in an average of 1500 calories per day. Advantage gather of plants, not meat eaters.
If humanity is facing a food shortage, we'd be better off eating more vegitables rather than feeding that to animals and then eating the animals. The calories in a 100 units of corn that becomes 1 unit of pig is far higher as 100 units of corn instead of 1 unit of pig, no matter how desne meat is for energy, again advantage plant eaters.

I ment to say 100 caloric units of corn becomes 1 caloric unit of pig (animal) and thus as corn has 100 times the calories of the meat (even if it is bacon).

 

[ACbrewer]

I will look into that but I know for sure there is a raw brand of coconut water I've purchased that claims to sanitize using enormous amounts of pressure. I'll have to research it more.

Never heard this before, can you clarify? You aren't thinking about lowering the boiling point by pulling a vacuum right?

BB, It could be 'we can do this industrial, but home use would be difficult' type thing.

River City, no, preasure can do it, infact that is one reason fermentation stops, to much CO2 changes the preasure of the wort/beer along with the C2H5OH. These make it harder for the O2 and any remaing sugars to get into through the yeast walls and continue functioning. The process of racking beer or wine can cause some C02 to come out and start up fermentation again if there are still sugars to use. (along with stiring up the yeast).
The trick with preasure pasturaization would be getting enough preasure to rupture cell walls to kill the bacteria. I was going to say something about how far people have dived without preasure gear, but realize that our outer skin cells could be killed off from preasure without necessarily killing us.

 

[TyTanium]

...If humanity is facing a food shortage, we'd be better off eating more vegitables rather than feeding that to animals and then eating the animals. The calories in a 100 units of corn that becomes 1 unit of pig is far higher as 100 units of corn instead of 1 unit of pig, no matter how desne meat is for energy, again advantage plant eaters.

That assumes pigs, cows, etc eat corn. The missing equation here is grass. Humans can't eat grass, but cows can. They turn hardy, perennial, abundant, prolific grass into high-quality sustaining food.

 

[Nightshade]

That assumes pigs, cows, etc eat corn. The missing equation here is grass. Humans can't eat grass, but cows can. They turn hardy, perennial, abundant, prolific grass into high-quality sustaining food.

Corn is actually an unnatural food for pigs and cows to consume but it allows them to grow to sell weight faster than a grass fed diet does and they can put them into industrial style feed lots instead of open range grazing which takes more land.

The trade off though is that a feed lot animal takes more maintenence with antibiotics and hormone treatment than a range fed animal due to conditions and stress on the animal.

 

[Whattawort]

Don't forget the bone meal. Cows and pigs are oblivious cannibals. That's good with me though, makes the cows taste beefier and the pigs taste more porcine. Bacony bacon. Wha? Don't judge me!

 

[Yooper]

Doing crossfit on hard-core paleo would be tough. I think most of those guys are "primal" not paleo, meaning they ingest small amounts of tuber-type carbs (i.e., potatoes). Ketones are great, but glucose really helps with the high intensity stuff.

Again, that sounds like primal, but the distinction is pretty minimal.

Most modified versions don't last long. If you're still ingesting carbs/glucose, you kinda get stuck in "no man's" land where you're not getting enough glucose to function at 100%, but not yet adapted to burning fat, so you feel sluggish, tired, headachey, terrible. Not pushing you one way or the other, but you really have to commit to it to feel the benefits, whatever they may be.

Well I see as problems, 1, sacrofication of the starches, 2, isomerization of the hops and 3. last but more important, sanitation of the wort. I suppose DMS also could be a problem, but I'm not exactly sure how it is formed. Does it require heat to make (say 140F) and then get driven off at a boil?

Anyhow, yes #2 would require a boil to get good bittering out of the hops, although some will come out with a soak at room temp. The isomerization is iirc a change of the AA shape so it is more water soluable. But it might be only 1/10th ro even 1/100th as soluable, hence why I suggested using a different bittering agent.

#1 I don't think can be done without hitting the activation energies of the emzynes which are in the 140 to 160F range (depending on emzyme).

#3, is clearly the most difficult - how to make it all sanitary.

That assumes pigs, cows, etc eat corn. The missing equation here is grass. Humans can't eat grass, but cows can. They turn hardy, perennial, abundant, prolific grass into high-quality sustaining food.

When I earlier said that I don't use gelatin, because a product from a cow, I didn't mean to imply that I am vegan or vegetarian, as I am not.

I'm more between paleo/primal, and I eat grass fed beef, venison, and lamb along with fish I've got. But I don't want my beer to not be vegetarian friendly, as I would think that my vegetarian friends would not expect to find animal products in my beer!

The thing with me is funny- I'm mostly paleo/primal, except for my beer! I'm NOT giving up my beloved beer. That is the only grain I consume- the grain in my beer. I eat a few potatoes in the fall, but otherwise no rice, wheat, barley, or other starchy foods unless I'm out with friends and then I suck it up and eat whatever they are having.

I do NOT preach my lifestyle, but sometimes I do say something. As an example, I work with a woman a little younger than me. She's extremely obese and always has Twizzlers, chips, and Mountain Dew on her desk. She's always sick, she's always tired, and she's got health issues like bad teeth, high cholesterol, etc. I don't say a word for the most part. But every once in a while, she will make a snide comment to me like, "Must be nice to be so skinny." Finally, one time, all I did was look at her and say, "You just wouldn't want to do what I do". She laughed then, and agreed. She asked me a couple of times what I eat, because it's foreign to her and she just doesn't understand how I am happy with my choices. I've never ever preached to her, even though her young children are also obese. Because she knows this is unhealthy- she's not stupid. But she doesn't want to make changes, and that's the bottom line, so it's easier to point to me as the "weird, skinny person". I don't point to her as anything.

I'm not into "raw", although I do consume many raw or pickled foods just as part of my mostly vegetable diet. But to make a beer raw food friendly would be tough. I think home malting and kilning at a low temperature is far above my abilities, as well as against my inclination. Mead and wine are raw, but I can't really see how to make a great tasting beer this way.

 

[TyTanium]

Corn is actually an unnatural food for pigs and cows to consume but it allows them to grow to sell weight faster than a grass fed diet does and they can put them into industrial style feed lots instead of open range grazing which takes more land.

The trade off though is that a feed lot animal takes more maintenence with antibiotics and hormone treatment than a range fed animal due to conditions and stress on the animal.

Exactly my point. I agree that corn-fed meat is not efficient calorically...so let 'em eat grass and it's moot. I'm off topic, sorry. Guess I like thinking about this stuff.

 

[ACbrewer]

That assumes pigs, cows, etc eat corn. The missing equation here is grass. Humans can't eat grass, but cows can. They turn hardy, perennial, abundant, prolific grass into high-quality sustaining food.

Corn is actually an unnatural food for pigs and cows to consume but it allows them to grow to sell weight faster than a grass fed diet does and they can put them into industrial style feed lots instead of open range grazing which takes more land.

The trade off though is that a feed lot animal takes more maintenence with antibiotics and hormone treatment than a range fed animal due to conditions and stress on the animal.

I was pretty sure as I typed it that would be pointed out - that is that grass feed animals becoming human food is an effiecient use of energy, where as my example was using human food to feed animals being inefficent, and I agree on that. I'm also not concerned about food shortages.

 

[TyTanium]

Oh good, we all agree then

Back to your regular scheduled programming...

 

[ACbrewer]

I'm not into "raw", although I do consume many raw or pickled foods just as part of my mostly vegetable diet. But to make a beer raw food friendly would be tough. I think home malting and kilning at a low temperature is far above my abilities, as well as against my inclination. Mead and wine are raw, but I can't really see how to make a great tasting beer this way.

This is where I've come to after thinking on this most of the day - raw beer would be tough. How close to beer flavor - I doubt it would be similar, although if it was palatible and alcoholic, it would probably be consumed. And I agree that doing it is beyond my skill also.

 

[teresalgl]

Maybe a raw sour beer would be the way to go.

 

[Bobby_M]

By the time you got starch down to maltose at 100F, it would a disgusting soup of everything that is not beer.