Raw Ale / No Boil

[Ninoid]

My main reason for making No Boil - No Chill is the simplicity of the process in the conditions of a small apartment and there is no smell and evaporation of boiling.

 

[applescrap]

My main reason for making No Boil - No Chill is the simplicity of the process in the conditions of a small apartment and there is no smell and evaporation of boiling.

That is awesome. Where there is a will, theres a way. And with extract you could essentially just mix it. Extract is boiled to a powder so it is ready. And I'm tempted to brew a lot of beer this way just to get a massive pipeline going, every week in week out Brewing it's just easier for my setup right now.

Edit. Rereading your work ninoid i am impressed. Your work is adding significantly to this discussion for me and your reasons for this method are cool, strong, and leading the way for others. I am thinking rather than try and work around the protein issue, embrace it. I can't help but think Saison is a good candidate for this kind of beer. It's no coincidence that I think this style of beer making is used for Saison in norway. Although protein would add plenty of life to a lager. New England IPA, bitters, and red ale, i enjoy what you brew. Cant wait to see more of your findings with this beer style, especially as related to stability and the proteins. I really want to save some time in my brews.

 

[Ninoid]

In current lager, that ferment, I try Biersol (fining like Whirfloc). I hope he can help with excessive protein problems. The gelatine (on warm temperature) definitely helps to clear yeast and stabilizes the beer, but it reduces the amount of foam and bitterness, so I try to correct whit hop extract and more sugar in priming.

My goal is to make a good beer for friends and yourself with minimal equipment and as simple and fast as possible. But I think they No Boil / no Chill will soon be able to compete in some homebrew competition.

 

[Ninoid]

I read this:
http://brulosophy.com/2018/02/05/kettle-hop-vs-hop-stand-exbeeriment-results/
In this experiment hop stand with all hops add same amount of IBU (and almost the same flavor and aroma) as boiling schedule.

Next is No Chill hop addition chart. According to this chart, hop added in natural chilling container produce same bitterness as 20 minute of boiling and fast chill. This is for wort with 100'C. If I use mash out in Raw/No Boil Ale (heat wort up to 77'C) I have 75% of utilization on 100'C.
So if I hit a hop right after mash out I can count on getting bitterness as if I boiling it for 15 minutes.

I think that is useful for hoping methods for No Boil beer.

 

[Northern_Brewer]

Next is No Chill hop addition chart. According to this chart, hop added in natural chilling container produce same bitterness as 20 minute of boiling and fast chill. This is for wort with 100'C. If I use mash out in Raw/No Boil Ale (heat wort up to 77'C) I have 75% of utilization on 100'C.
So if I hit a hop right after mash out I can count on getting bitterness as if I boiling it for 15 minutes.

??? As far as bittering goes, what matters is the time spent over 80C. If you're only going up to 77C then you won't isomerise and alpha acids, which is the main contributor to bitterness. You will get some bitterness from other chemicals in the hops, but not much.

Although it's commonly said that no-chill effectively adds 20 minutes to the hop timings it's not always true - my estimate for a recent beer I had was that no-chill had added ~8 minutes to the timings, not 20.

@applescrap those Norwegian beers aren't saisons - different yeast, different process, but still within the wider tradition of European farmhouse brewing. This article from Lars Garshol gives a good overview and is worth a read by anyone interested in raw beers : https://byo.com/article/raw-ale/

 

[Miraculix]

??? As far as bittering goes, what matters is the time spent over 80C. If you're only going up to 77C then you won't isomerise and alpha acids, which is the main contributor to bitterness. You will get some bitterness from other chemicals in the hops, but not much.

Although it's commonly said that no-chill effectively adds 20 minutes to the hop timings it's not always true - my estimate for a recent beer I had was that no-chill had added ~8 minutes to the timings, not 20.

@applescrap those Norwegian beers aren't saisons - different yeast, different process, but still within the wider tradition of European farmhouse brewing. This article from Lars Garshol gives a good overview and is worth a read by anyone interested in raw beers : https://byo.com/article/raw-ale/

I can confirm what you are saying regarding the bittering impact of no chill flame out hops. I did some small scale experiments with flame out only, to see how much would be needed to reach the desired bitterness. When assuming that 20 minutes boiling would equal this no chill flame out addition, I ended up with less bitterness than calculated. I wanted to shoot for about 25 ibus but the result was more in the range of 15 ibus or even a bit lower.

I would use 12 min boiling time as the calculator input when trying to calculate no chill flame out additions, based on my own experience. It's more based on personal experiences than being scientifically proven, so it might change in the future. For now it looks like it would work.

 

[applescrap]

I have posted about no chill bittering quite a bit. I remain certain 20 minutes etc is not the whole story. Infact there are some charts that say one should add first wort hops to offset no chill. Think about that, fwh? I am not talking no boil now, but no chill. With no boil I think a separate tea should be made and there wont be too much isomerization in the cooler wort as mentioned. But for a boiled beer that is no chilled. Depending on ambient temps etc, the beer will remain above 177 lets say, for well over an hour. However long the beer remains over 177 as it chills should be used as the time in a hop calculator. Playing with said calculator reveals a point, a time, where no more bitterness can be extracted. It also shows the difference between one hour and two hours. I think this is how long no chill hops should be added.

 

[Ninoid]

I brew No Boil IPA today and use this Cube First Wort Hoping No Chill method. After removing BIAB bag with grains, heat wort up to 77'C, pitch all hops in fermenter and pour hot wort then seal fermenter for No Chill.

In one previous batch (No Boil and No Chill) I use mash hoping only and got pretty bitter beer. With this experience and what I have read, I think that this method (Cube FWH) should get much more bitterness.

Tomorrow I'll taste it when I'm a yeast pitch.

Edited: https://www.homebrewtalk.com/forum/...pa-hop-schedule-critique.266755/#post-3229223
Same hopping method.

 

[applescrap]

That makes good sense. When I wrote that post above I had forgotten about the brulosophy experiments and some known facts of today's beer production. It's my understanding that a lot of the beers that I like to drink don't even have hops in the boil anymore. It's all whirlpool and dryhop if I'm correct. In that brulosophy xbmt or one like it didn't they send the results into the lab and find that ibus were created in the whirlpool. Can't remember what temperature the ibus were created at. Anyways for an IPA sure that makes sense to me, put enough Hops in 170 degree water and let it steep until it cools. Biterness aside sounds like a great way to make an ipa. I find this all so interesting

 

[Ninoid]

I pitch yeast and taste wort. It feels very mild bitterness.
Next trial for two weeks.

Update: Since summer has already started in me, US-05 fermented to 29 ° C. Strong fermentation did not last for two days. But, good foam and no unpleasant smells.

 

[Ninoid]

I think that in the following batch I try this method of hoping:
http://brulosophy.com/2018/02/05/kettle-hop-vs-hop-stand-exbeeriment-results/
The only problem is that it would have to heat the wort to 100'C so I do not know if it would trigger the creation of a DMS that, as it would not boiling, would not evaporate?

 

[Ninoid]

My Dark Lager (I expected it to be red, but rosted barley was twice as dark as expected), No Boil / No Chill fermented with lager yeast W-34/70 at twice the recommended temperature (26'C), with gelatin fining (on warm) got pretty good. I do not think it would be better if it was boiling.
I used hop tea in 2L water with 20g Magnum which was added to the grain at the end of mash and, combined with a mild roasty character, gives a pleasant and pure bitterness.

 

[Ninoid]

Bottling day for my No Boil / No Chill IPA with Cube FWH of 80g Magnum and US-05 that ferment above at 28'C and above. This is very tasting, as is young.
But (always this BUT), problem with hop remains and plugging bottle filer.
I think this method of adding hop has already proven to be successful, but I have to figure out how to remove hop remains.

Do hop remains can increase FG?

 

[applescrap]

^^ you can put the Hops in the bag next time or you can also wrap the racking cane with a bag which is what I usually do. Research strongly suggests that there is no difference between putting the Hops in a bag or just throwing them in.

 

[Ninoid]

^^ you can put the Hops in the bag next time or you can also wrap the racking cane with a bag which is what I usually do. Research strongly suggests that there is no difference between putting the Hops in a bag or just throwing them in.

Do bag material influence beer two weeks in fermenter? Do bag drop to bottom of fermenter?

 

[applescrap]

I dont think so, i have never done it but its my understanding it works well

 

[NickAus]

Hi, doing a 5 gal batch today, it 'was' going to be a pale ale but I grabbed a bag of about 8.5oz Simcoe and just thought stuff it, so dumped it all in at the start of the mash, let's see how we go lol I do love hoppy beers so I'm sure it will be good...

 

[NickAus]

So I added a whirfloc just before I upped the temp to mash out (mash 66c mash out 75c for ten minutes). The wort is very clear, despite my crush being a bit too fine today. I added hops at the start of the mash and was really expecting it to be less clear. I also decided to no chill today just for ease of brewing. I have a counter flow chiller but not using it was super easy. Will let you guys know how this one goes

 

[badlee]

Has anybody tried throwing in some goji berries, corriander seed or other such things?
I am thinking about it; say about 1gr/ltr corriander seed and 4-5 gr/ltr of goji.

 

[Ninoid]

Drink among the last bottle No Boil beer standing for just over a month in the fridge. It looks a bit cleaner, tastes the same as before, but got some bad smell.

Making few batches of No Boil Beer I have found that this is the greatest disadvantage of this method. It's not stable and it's fast changing to worse.
As far as I can tell, it's best to drink it within 20 days. The flavor and the taste change afterwards.

 

[Miraculix]

Drink among the last bottle No Boil beer standing for just over a month in the fridge. It looks a bit cleaner, tastes the same as before, but got some bad smell.

Making few batches of No Boil Beer I have found that this is the greatest disadvantage of this method. It's not stable and it's fast changing to worse.
As far as I can tell, it's best to drink it within 20 days. The flavor and the taste change afterwards.

I can confirm this, although my pilsener was quite good after a few months. It went from great to bad and from there back to good.

 

[NickAus]

Has anybody tried throwing in some goji berries, corriander seed or other such things?
I am thinking about it; say about 1gr/ltr corriander seed and 4-5 gr/ltr of goji.

Sounds interesting!

 

[Ninoid]

I can confirm this, although my pilsener was quite good after a few months. It went from great to bad and from there back to good.

You mean that after a couple of months of standing did not break completely but improved? Was she standing warm or in the fridge all the time?

 

[Miraculix]

You mean that after a couple of months of standing did not break completely but improved? Was she standing warm or in the fridge all the time?

It was warm... and in the fridge

 

[Ninoid]

Today I have tried the first bottle of my first IPA. Good fruity aroma and taste, good (not too strong) foam and super look. It contains 80g Magnum inserted into the wort after mash out. Since No Chill was supposed to have good bitterness, but no. Bitterness is sensible, but gentle. Maybe the fruit aroma covered bitterness.

I think this is the best my No Boil / No Chill beer ever. I wonder after how much time will start to change the properties to the worse.

 

[Ninoid]

I forgot to mention that this beer was fermented from US_05 to about 27'C. That yeast is really very clean.

 

[Jwin]

Do bag material influence beer two weeks in fermenter? Do bag drop to bottom of fermenter?

I know the whole point is not boiling but. ..
Boil a spare SS nut and put it in the bag and tie it tight.
You can also use sanitized(and new) nylon stockings. Just cut the leg off, put the hops and nut in and tie it in a knot.
No need to clean a bag later on. Just retrieve your nut and throw away.
I feel like Scott should pay me commission but check out the blog at scottjanish.com
He has a good write-up on bitterness and dryhopping.
I haven't traveled down the no boil road yet but it seems that having a small pan of hop extract tea would be the best option for a large bitterness charge. Boiled in a cup or two of water during the mash.

 

[Jwin]

An idea with regards to stability:
With no boil taking place, the dissolved oxygen in the wort is not being driven off at all, potentially leading to advanced staling and oxidation. Maybe brewtan B could help?

 

[Ninoid]

An idea with regards to stability:
With no boil taking place, the dissolved oxygen in the wort is not being driven off at all, potentially leading to advanced staling and oxidation. Maybe brewtan B could help?

God idea, but I cannot find Brewtan B in my country.

I plan to boil my next batch 30 minute using same recipe as current fermenting (Saison, No Boil) and compare these two beers.

 

[Ninoid]

I find experiment wnere is wort normal boiled 90 minute and oposite wort is hold at 85'C on same time.

In this experiment archived almost same result, except self life in pH untreated wort is four weeks less and bitterness is a little bit smaller.

Interestingly.